|
Post by Apocrypha on Jan 15, 2021 23:00:35 GMT -5
The threat for her to leave you is a gobsmacker. Maybe suggest a divorce where you stay living together for the grandkids but she can get a man to satisfy those needs she claims to have. More often than not, the "let's cuddle" or "foot rub" is posed as a pre-emptive consolation prize - a chaffe cloud that an intimacy averse person hopes will sate the appetite of someone she doesn't want to root. And many are surprised either during marriage or soon after, at how quickly and easily their averse partner has sex with someone new, who doesn't put in all that work. Because she wants to have sex with someone she wants it with.
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Jan 17, 2021 0:34:18 GMT -5
How can you make yourself feel desire for someone who hurt you so deeply over three decades. In short, you can't make yourself feel desire for a person. You now know how she felt about you for 27 years. Here's what you can do to make yourself feel better though. You can recognize now that you have some things in common - you both married and felt trapped in a situation in which you felt unfulfilled, in a scenario that neither of you would likely describe or recognize as a marriage. Neither of you would agree to an oath of celibacy (as with a priest) in front of your family, friends, and God. But you both married a partner who was unsuited, and you both chose to stay involved regardless because the thought of losing the benefits associated with marriage were impractical and too costly. What can you do with that? You can forgive her, and you can forgive yourself. She's not and never was the person you thought. You aren't and never were the person she thought, and marriage likely isn't what she thought it was. That's the same for all people in a marriage - btw - but in your case, she never "came to Jesus" or fully onboard in her heart with either you or the marriage to you. With the track record established - 3 decade of life - probably the bulk of your adult life - this is what it is. Forgiveness isn't for her. And it isn't to be nice. It isn't even to regain your mojo. It's to free you from hate and baggage so you can make clear decisions about the kind of life you want to lead in your remaining years. Do you want to experience love and intimacy? By "love" I don't mean familial love - but rather the kind of love that happens between a man and woman. If you want that in your life, I think 27 years of establishing that this person doesn't feel that way about you might be a strong enough sample base to conclude - she doesn't feel that way. Best way forward is with forgiveness and a clear heart and mind. Stop pretending what you have is something other than what it is. If you want the whole package, you'll need to clear the chair - both of you - to make space to find yourselves and maybe someone else to sit there. Just to say that I do honestly believe I have forgiven her. It is not a case of forgiveness as I do understand that she is a complex person who did not have the best start in life and so forth. I do still love her but I am struggling to be "in love with her". I think there is a big difference between the two. Given everything that has transpired, is it possible to make a list of basics that you can go back to build the marrige? My marriage got much more successful when I did a bunch of small things that were his love language. I actually was trying to do that so he could be important to the marriage because he felt left out when I opened my marriage to another man. The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/080241270X/
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2021 16:06:41 GMT -5
Given everything that has transpired, is it possible to make a list of basics that you can go back to build the marrige? My marriage got much more successful when I did a bunch of small things that were his love language How did your marriage become more successful, specifically? I ask, because we share a history in that for a while I also agreed to open my marriage a crack. While I found some and many aspects of this to be enjoyable and personally fulfilling in ways that I'd missed, I would not say that this, nor when I implemented the Five Love Languages, nor any other marital help book (I read a ton), made my marriage more successful. It likely helped me in some ways to become more appealing as a partner. It certainly improved my relationship with my wife, such that we became friendlier. But it did not turn my relationship into anything that either of us would agree was a marriage.
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Jan 19, 2021 1:20:21 GMT -5
Given everything that has transpired, is it possible to make a list of basics that you can go back to build the marriage? My marriage got much more successful when I did a bunch of small things that were his love language How did your marriage become more successful, specifically? I ask, because we share a history in that for a while I also agreed to open my marriage a crack. While I found some and many aspects of this to be enjoyable and personally fulfilling in ways that I'd missed, I would not say that this, nor when I implemented the Five Love Languages, nor any other marital help book (I read a ton), made my marriage more successful. It likely helped me in some ways to become more appealing as a partner. It certainly improved my relationship with my wife, such that we became friendlier. But it did not turn my relationship into anything that either of us would agree was a marriage. Since I could not press a button for automatic desire. The one that helped me the most was "The Sex Starved Wife", "Divorce Busting", "Love in Abundance- A counselor's advice on open relationships". Later -"More Than Two" and the polyamory.com (of the successful open R's I noticed they were very loving. Unfortunately my marriage was in bad shape because I was depressed and I really didn't care what happened to it. I think it is a common reaction to feeling left out of intimacy. Some of my behavior was just over the top anger, that had to really change. I had started tearing down the marriage brick by brick. I also had gotten to the point where I was lashing out with my own NO's because I could and in turn he returned the favor. They gave me a plan, especially "The Sex-Starved Wife" to change me, not him and in turn his behavior mirrored mine, it didn't get me sex with him, but it did help me be more loving and understanding. It wasn't enough, so I decided to go in fetlife.com cyber sex would be my sex. It didn't work it just woke up my libido. Much later, I decided I would be stepping out of the marriage for sex. He had a conniption fit, threatened divorce, my mentor at the time asked me questions about my marriage and said, no, don't make a deal with him, go ahead and put in the ad for sex. Tell him you will also give him sex. Be kind and gentle...He responded very kindly, but was enraged at times and moved out of the master bedroom. It was hard to express heart felt commitment, hard to cook, ...when he was so mean. He would say i'm leaving, I would say, "I prefer you don't go, I love you"... It was more a selfish act, I needed a better marriage because I wanted it intact. BRB Specifically, I started to use the 180 technique, I changed my behavior and did a 180 which should be used in a R. Simple, just do the opposite of what you are doing and it only took changing my behavior and his followed, which made me want to do it even more. I stopped asking why. Big step for me. Instead of doing the last resort technique, I was stepping out of the marriage for sex. Let me know if the video doesn't talk about it. Trying to give a sample of the techniques and tips. The techniques were about changing your marriage by changing self and identifying habits and that yielded positive results. Find and challenge destructive behaviors. If it wasn't working, do something different instead of beating it to death. Tossing a coin to see who vents first, uninterrupted for 10 minutes if needed. Next person vents then 10 minutes of silence, before another round if needed. He had a lot of venting and questions for me. reestablishing date night- I set everything up and didn't worry about him not selecting this or that. Gottman's “magic ratio” 5 to 1 -every negative interaction during conflict, a stable marriage has 5+ positive interactions. I was trying very hard to just let stuff go or use humor to get it across without zinging burns and insults. At first I was doing all the work, I felt like giving up, and I really didn't get a huge payoff for several years. My poor husband was flipping out. That's also when I decided to go to a "Don't Ask Don't Tell" open M. Mostly, I used questionnaires to assess the direction of the marriage, those questions gave clues as to what I should be doing. Example: "how much time do you spend with each other at night?" That worked really well when my H took the test in The 5 Love languages book. He was delighted that I focused on his love languages, did it get me sex, no, but it saved my marriage. in those questions or Gottman's love maps" were my clues. It wasn't fun, catering to my H when he was floundering and so angry, I felt alone, I thought, why do I bother! The marriage turned around little by little and it was so much easier to be good to my H because I had intimacy in another's bed by then and the strange thing was talking about repairing each other's marriage. The simplest thing was to ask him what special thing he would like to eat and bring him coffee. Cooking is my thing, so that was really easy. I was quick to agree, even if I didn't and he knew I didn't but liked the change. If you want some more I can get it for you. That is the core of what I did. YMMV unfortunately, I started way too late to get sex, I started with the how to make him hot for you books and they worked, I just could not get anything to stick. My sex faded about 6 years then when we got married, it was over only I was in denial and thought I could fix it. We are very loving to each other. He still doesn't like me getting sex, but when he catches me, he turns the other cheek and acts like I did nothing wrong. Last year he had me help him find a sports car, then handed me the keys. I was floored! He also put me as the beneficiary of his retirement plan and took a lower retirement so I could get his retirement for the rest of my life. I have realestate and he really didn't need to do that, but it was very loving that he did. Am I in the clear? no, never. Anyone can pull the rug out anytime.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jan 19, 2021 10:46:43 GMT -5
The techniques were about changing your marriage by changing self and identifying habits and that yielded positive results. Thanks for sharing. I'm familiar with all of the approaches you outlined and walked a similar path when I was married, including non-monogamy. I also framed the problem in a similar way to you. My thinking changed though, eventually, and I now regard my work then as gaslighting myself. I used to look at it as you did, by moving the goalpost from "having a marriage" (meaning two people who share a unique and mutual attraction planning their life together) to instead be about yielding "positive results". I tried unpacking my marriage into component pieces as well, hoping that I could have sex from someone else, and I did. It did not change the fact though that the person I loved and lived with did not see me as a sexual partner, and opening drove further disconnection in that area. I could define "positive results" in any number of ways to fool myself into thinking I was walking along steps that would eventually arrive at what I think a marriage is. I noticed how our counsellor was careful in his word choice referring to "the relationship" rather than "the marriage." What I found was that after a year or more of work with the counsellor, we very clearly managed to create a more functional, collegiate, friendly and cooperative home dynamic. By most measures our relationship was improved objectively. But, our marriage, lacked a unique mutual sexual/intimate attraction. This mismatch was always going to be a tension. When I asked our counsellor - after we all agreed "we'd come so far" except the sexual component of our marriage had not materialized - if that was a normal result. He indicated that "Yes, a common result was to improve the relationship overall, but that the sexual component would still be missing." So much time wasted. Perhaps it has helped toward a more cooperative separation than most - if there is a silver lining. It's not even that non-monogamous lifestyles don't or can't be a marriage. I just realized that in my own version of that, this was something that - as with the rest of the marriage, this was something I was exploring WITH her, and that she was using to explore alone - so it just became another arena in which to display her disconnection and resistance to the marriage. My point is to caution people who are still in their dysfunctional relationship to be careful about being loosey-goosey with terms like "progress" and "the right direction" and "improved relationship". You can have all those things and yet still fall waaay short of the standard one might generally apply to a marriage. Most marital help applies techniques originating from individual therapy, about improving the methods of social interaction. Gottman's work - which you cited - was unique in that he draws a hard line with well above 90% accuracy from longitudinal studies - around the terminal status of contempt in a relationship. Once it's there, you might find techniques to relate in a more amicable way, tools for coping - but you are never going to get desire back. It's terminal. Time's better spent working on techniques to have a cooperative separation.
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Jan 20, 2021 9:10:34 GMT -5
So much time wasted. Perhaps it has helped toward a more cooperative separation than most - if there is a silver lining. It's not even that non-monogamous lifestyles don't or can't be a marriage. I just realized that in my own version of that, this was something that - as with the rest of the marriage, this was something I was exploring WITH her, and that she was using to explore alone - so it just became another arena in which to display her disconnection and resistance to the marriage. My point is to caution people who are still in their dysfunctional relationship to be careful about being loosey-goosey with terms like "progress" and "the right direction" and "improved relationship". You can have all those things and yet still fall waaay short of the standard one might generally apply to a marriage. Most marital help applies techniques originating from individual therapy, about improving the methods of social interaction. Gottman's work - which you cited - was unique in that he draws a hard line with well above 90% accuracy from longitudinal studies - around the terminal status of contempt in a relationship. Once it's there, you might find techniques to relate in a more amicable way, tools for coping - but you are never going to get desire back. It's terminal. Time's better spent working on techniques to have a cooperative separation. Well said, but I do wonder whether enough people ask themselves if Jerri's platonic marriage situation wouldn't be a perfectly acceptable (even "good"?) outcome. Jerri is alone in her poly pursuits too, but it seems to have come in to a soft landing. (Husband making impressive gestures of support.) Your citation of your own experience seems to convey an ominous warning or disdain. Your subjective experience does seem unhappy, but I keep getting a vibe you feel as if all/most/many open marriages must end up with as poor an outcome. Maybe you're exactly right, but if you have evidence to share, it'd be informative for any who consider the unconventional solution. Quiet plausibly the rarity of open marriages makes such data difficult to come by. A gut instinct that open marriages are inferior and/or substantially harder to pull off is anyone's prerogative, but I'm wondering if there's more to it? I may have you dead wrong here. Do refused spouses consider the drawback if one divorces with the intent to find a new partner, that the candidates out in the world have much of the same baggage they found when dating as singles? Maybe more? Bear in mind, happy marriages don't generally put their participants into the mix. (poly couples and window(er)s aside.) The same folks who fizzle a year or two into marriage and get divorced may well fizzle for the next spouse. I dare say the probability may be high (no stats offered, just naked conjecture). These are the future SM spouses lurking around out there. I can't imagine they get better in their late thirties and up. (You mention your thoroughly lusty subsequent partners, but we don't know their long term behavior, for the most part. Many may have simmered down promptly once they got a ring. Who can know?) Opening a marriage means reducing the necessary criteria for a sexual partner drastically. Income? Good with Kids? Likes cats? Neat freak/slob? None of that is likely to disqualify a side dude/chick. Some good could be done for society in general with Jerri's approach. You wouldn't be releasing your sexless spouse into the wild like a ball python showing up in someone else's toilet. If the spouse doesn't mind a permanent SM, you may be saving another victim from the years of torment we got when we were baited and switched. Always acknowledging that an erotic marriage is a wholly understandable goal and slogging through an unwanted marriage is nothing I implore upon others. If you cannot be content with a platonic marriage, I question whether anyone is well served. (case by case factors weighing in strongly and temporary détente being useful sometimes.)
|
|
|
Post by alwaysdenied on Jan 20, 2021 11:07:38 GMT -5
Actually your sad tale is very common. I see myself in a lot of it. Except my wife had infertility problems and actually was more into sex while pregnant. Back to your story though. I feel like you can only feel what you can feel. Do you need validation in these feelings? It is completely understandable for you to feel this way since your wife has basically ruined your good sex years with her crap. Something for you to consider is that now that you aren't perusing her, she knows she has to somewhat try to get you back in the game. So she dangles 'sex' in front of you. It's yet another rouse to get you to ignore how she's treated you over the years. I'm sure by now you are stripping away the sex part and evaluating your marriage to see if it wasn't for the sexless part, would you be ok with it. It's a question you need to come to terms with.
If your wife had a genuine want for sex, she would be doing all the things to get you to have sex. Dressing provocatively, blow jobs, groping you to get you turned on, Doing all those things YOU once did to try and get her into the mood to have relations. Is she doing that? If so, then maybe it's genuine. If she's just asking for you to magically get aroused so you can penetrate her while she endures it to make you 'happy', then yeah she's reached level 10 manipulator status.
In the end it has to do with what you're willing to live with. I can't really give that much advice because I'm currently trying to figure out what that is myself. I don't even feel like it's the act of sexual intercourse that makes us feel rejected. It's the fact that we're with someone who doesn't have the same interest in us as we do them. That's the most painful part. It's hard to remain committed to someone who loves themselves as much as you love them and yet has no love for you.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jan 20, 2021 11:55:32 GMT -5
Well said, but I do wonder whether enough people ask themselves if Jerri's platonic marriage situation wouldn't be a perfectly acceptable (even "good"?) outcome. There are many types of relationships - many formats. Is a marriage a platonic relationship? I mean in a lived reality sense - does it conform to what either party in the relationship promised or even expected? Did they take oath of celibacy at the altar as a symbol of their sacrifice to each other's love? Let's take non-monogamy off the table for second and switch to "living together or associating". Suppose you have a wedding and then soon move apart for several years to pursue work opportunities in different countries indefinitely, as one of my cousins did. Do you have what either of you recognize as a marriage?The question is important - because the pain one feels with one set of expectations is relieved by having another set of expectations. When I'm married to someone, I expect a set of behaviours and lifestyle arrangements that conforms generally to what I (and likely, we) think a marriage is, with room for negotiation on some details. Gestures of support for what exactly? Consider my present situation with my ex-wife and her partner, and me with my partner - in our co-operative separated parenting arrangements and management of households. She offers some level of support and likewise in return, so that we can pursue our lives. We also have a "platonic" association and I'm told are more cooperative with each other than many married couples. This makes each of our lives objectively better; but it is not a "marriage". It is an association, a relationship. She is a member of my extended family, but I do not regard her in any way as my "wife". I'm not ripping on "gestures of support". Having a supportive relationship is beneficial. My caution is in the grand mistake of thinking that the vaguely termed "gesture of support" (however positive it is) meets the criteria or intention of a marriage.I live in a metropolitan city with a thriving non-monogamy culture that I was involved in, in various ways, for several years. I've seen a lot. Swingers, polyamorists, hotwives and stags, cuckolds, BDSM variants, "open a crack" and full-time lifestylers, curious folks, one-time adventures, exhibitionists, wannabes, orgies, and affairs - you name it - I've likely seen it practiced in a mindful, self-cognizant way. It's true - I DID notice a lot of people within who were there to fill unmet needs in their relationships, where there was clearly a problem. And now pushing 7 or 8 years on, I've seen the trajectory of nearly all of these people - and they are split now. But I also saw people who were very much involved and supportive of these activities together, where they were turned on by each others' participation in them, and where they enjoyed the challenges and tools for navigating obvious associated difficulties and using these tools to also enhance their interrelational skills. So, no - I don't think it must end in a poor outcome. The trick here is really understanding the root relationship upstream from the activities and the format of the relationship. The marriages that I saw do well in this community were marriages where it was clear both parties weren't making due, where one party was tolerating another - but rather, where they were truly cooperative and turned on by it. Take cuckolding or cuckqueaning for example - a variant of non-monogamy in which one partner is turned on by his or her partner's role-played or emphasized sexual disdain for his or her primary partner, and preference for other partners. In this style of non-monogamy, the wife or husband is sexually stimulated by the erotic scenario they create together, in which they must be made aware of a partner's infidelity and sexual preference for another. It's a complicated dance, but Eros is included in the marriage. It's something they are doing together and from which the celibate spouse gets an erotic thrill that's hard for them to find. I know several very loving - even adoring couples - where this is a factor in their relationship. They are doing this together, and their relationship still includes sexual expression, through the centering and role-played emphasis on its absence - if that makes any sense. So, it's not that non-monogamy must result in a poor outcome - I've seen many that work. Not as much as the community itself might try to present when selling itself (I never identified with them as a tribe, as some people seem to), but there are those who have successful relationships (some of which are indeed marriages) who do practice this lifestyle. It's more that it's just another tableaux in which to explore the existing qualities of your relationship. A dysfunctional, misaligned relationship will exhibit those qualities in a non-monogamous version of the same relationship just as it it would if they were running a family business, or in a boardgame, a family vacation, or date night at a restaurant, or having a baby. It won't fix the fundamental problems of the marriage. Most specifically, if you have sex outside the marriage so you can have sex in your life, you are still left with the problem of living with a partner who isn't just indifferent to you, but who doesn't want you as a sexual partner. That's always going to be a factor where you live. You are left with scheduling sex as an event, rather than existing within an overall lifestyle where sex is an expression of love and home. The absence of it with someone who you wanted with is a constant reminder in your home - of the fact that you aren't wanted. As such, your home and your marriage isn't restorative - it's a place of pain. You may learn to endure or offset that pain, but it doesn't change the nature of what it is vs what you'd naturally expect from a marriage.I think it's a mistake to look at divorce in the context of changing horses - I've seen people do that an immediately recreate a shitty situation, or overcompensate to the opposite extreme. I think separation needs to make sense on its own, irrespective of the alternate replacement prospects. I don't mean people should avoid looking for a new partner; I just don't think the emphasis in evaluating a marriage's viability has much to do with what else is or might be available as a partner. It has more to do with being truthful to yourself and to each other about your lived relationship as it is. Is it a marriage? If you wrote the description of it and how you feel and act about it that you each offered to your family counsellor - as a wedding vow - is that something you'd want to commit to? Absolutely true. I can personally attest to this. I have had sexual partners within my former open (a crack) marriage that likely would not have been successful long term primary relationships for various reasons. I'm suggesting though that irrespective of the third party, and irrespective of sex returning to your life in some form or another, you'd still be left with a primary partner in a relationship format that leaves you fundamentally disconnected rather than joined. That will always be a significant burden in a place where you want to be most restored.
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Jan 20, 2021 21:35:11 GMT -5
I think it's a mistake to look at divorce in the context of changing horses - I've seen people do that an immediately recreate a shitty situation, or overcompensate to the opposite extreme. I think separation needs to make sense on its own, irrespective of the alternate replacement prospects. I don't mean people should avoid looking for a new partner; I just don't think the emphasis in evaluating a marriage's viability has much to do with what else is or might be available as a partner. It has more to do with being truthful to yourself and to each other about your lived relationship as it is. Is it a marriage? If you wrote the description of it and how you feel and act about it that you each offered to your family counsellor - as a wedding vow - is that something you'd want to commit to? No arguments here. There's often a deferential voice given around here of minimal judgement. While one cannot understand accepting a SM before the fact, I find it understandable when religiously devout folks or those bound by the honor of a vow find breaking those vows less palatable than staying in their SM. We call it a sexless marriage. This indicates it is a type of one. Not the one most folks envision, to be sure. That applies even to couples that are both content to be celibate. Both voluntary and involuntary celibacy may strike your average person as odd, but would they declare the 80 year olds no longer married because they don't feel erotic love. Do we deny a refuser the claim to being married if they feel the same as that voluntarily celibate couple even though their partner is climbing the walls? The bond forged with vows or less profoundly, by the signature on a contract is labeled as a marriage and sex may be absent or optional. The dashed expectations of the refused make it a special, unhappy marriage, but can we remove the word? The state surely does not. You must sign additional legal papers to strip the description from your name before they allow it to be applied along with someone new. (at least, so far.) Because a marriage is disappointing and we'd not agree to a sexual marriage does not change it's nomenclature. Perhaps if it could we'd see more compromise by refusers! Ah, but if we could remove the prestige of being recognized as "married" if one spouse became unilaterally celibate. Marriages may have all kinds of characteristics and I dare say couples going in with no expectation of sex receive equal societal well wishes. The dedication can have many forms. When the expectations are pummeled, efforts to make retention of one's promise to our spouse, God, or both can drive refused spouses to great lengths of tolerance, or innovation. The surrender or sex or outsourcing doesn't change the label in legal terms and commonly not the terms of the refuser. Not a one that I've heard thinks they are no longer married, no matter how unhappy. We speak of dysfunctional, abusive, celibate, sexless, happy, erotic, and platonic marriages. To unilaterally say we are not married because we've been deprived justifies leaving. Must we, or do we even have the right to deny the label to those who stay and make the best of it? Apologies if it seems as though I rehash topics with you. I intend to dissect semantics with you at times and the discussion can get picayune at times. I hope you'll take it as enthusiasm for the psychology of our unhappy subject matter that such nuance pleases me.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jan 21, 2021 11:26:07 GMT -5
The dashed expectations of the refused make it a special, unhappy marriage, but can we remove the word? The state surely does not. You must sign additional legal papers to strip the description from your name before they allow it to be applied along with someone new. (at least, so far.) [...] The surrender or sex or outsourcing doesn't change the label in legal terms and commonly not the terms of the refuser. Not a one that I've heard thinks they are no longer married, no matter how unhappy. We speak of dysfunctional, abusive, celibate, sexless, happy, erotic, and platonic marriages. To unilaterally say we are not married because we've been deprived justifies leaving. Must we, or do we even have the right to deny the label to those who stay and make the best of it? I'm not playing a game of nomenclature though. I'm not approaching this from the standpoint of applying "external label" to the relationship. I'm trying to offer practical advice to help people get to the truth of their own relationship. I'm technically still married to the person I separated from 6 or 7 years ago according to the state, for example, but I'm not living as a married person. People come here to try to figure out what they should do. Obviously, they want advice on how to create the intimate experience that they believe a marriage is based on, to figure out how to have love and intimacy in their life - in their homes - and are suffering because they are looking at a future life where this is absent in perpetuity. They are concerned that this might be a possible future - a life of total celibacy in a home that feels increasingly cold to them. And as the people who come here describing celibate years as they count them - 5, 10, 20 and 30 years on attest - they aren't wrong to be concerned about that. They aren't coming here merely for advice on how to arrange their household chores, or parenting, or work life balance. If they are, they think that by twiddling those dials that somehow a partner is going to see them as attractive again, and a loving, intimate life will spring back into the dead branches as if a miracle. And it would be a miracle. As if scented candles or stacking the dishwasher and whatever griping greefes people normally endure m somehow makes makes them hot again. I hold that if sex has gone off (usually it's a conflict for years by the time it someone types "sexless marriage" into a search engine and arrives here), that it's no longer a practical matter of twiddling dials. If your houseplant has died (the houseplant being your attraction to someone), then realizing you should probably water it isn't going to bring it back. The plant is dead/ the attraction has died. So my question about the nature of your relationship is about understanding the lived reality of your relationship - because then you can take a practical view of what to do about it. For the most part here, the nature of their relationship is that they have an unrequited attraction to someone. Likely someone has been turned off somewhere - either from the person, or the marriage format itself (we don't marry everyone we love), or maybe never really wanted to be married at all and this manifest behavior is resistance to the marriage. In married life as with single, if something has happened such that an existing attraction is LOST, I don't really see many or even any examples of people changing their view to regain it. To do that, you'd need to delete from your perceived experience everything that made you lose it, and that's impossible. I have seen or experienced a "come to Jesus" moment in a relationship where I had started from a place of reticence and then eventually arrived at an epiphany and a choice to marry. That's about falling in love. But I don't know many people who fall in love with someone that they have fallen OUT of love with (for a reason). Do you? So then it comes down to playing the ball where it is. You don't have a sexual relationship with that person. There is not an attraction. There's likely an active aversion, and that aversion is to YOU specifically, or to the marriage to you. So in a lived, practical sense, or even a symbolic sense - is their a marriage then? You both facie a fundamental division - intending to retain the obvious benefits of the association while employing opposite strategies that thwart each other. One of you seeks to avoid centering the sex problem because they aren't attracted -and the more this is centered - the higher the risk of ending the association. That's in addition to the sexless marriage that they also endure by being married to a person they aren't attracted to. The other seeks to center the sex problem as much as possible because they are suffering and feel that if it goes on longer, this will also risk the marriage. There's no way both strategies can win. Instead of focusing on "how can I make someone be attracted to me" (it's fine to focus on being attractive though) - something neither of you has control over - it can help to examine the relationship itself and see where the ball has landed. So, if it's obvious that someone isn't into you, what are your long term prospects of an intimate long term marriage to that person. If we rewind to pre-marriage - is that a person you want to ask to marry you? Is that a person you want to ask out for a date even? I think that presents an informed perspective then, from which to make decisions on how to arrange your life and the experiences you want to have. What you can live with and what you can't. Then you can set about a course toward the life you want and take steps. The other partner can join you in that - either by their own "come to Jesus" moment and doing their own work, realizing the marriage is truly ening, or by working together with you to have the most cooperative change of relationship status possible.
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Jan 22, 2021 7:41:15 GMT -5
... It certainly backs up my thinking that you cannot force yourself to have feelings and desires. They are either there or not.Feelings and desire evolve some of the time. Conscious willing of feelings may not be possible (I rarely try), but changes in actions can surely produce changes in feelings. Unexpected, thoughtful gifts or favors for casual acquaintances can evoke sudden surges in benevolence producing friends from those acquaintances. If you wish to romantically love your wife again, it may well happen given time. Less so given the behavior you say you don't like. That sounds like she's throwing sand in the gears yet claiming she'd like better relations. Sabotage? Wanting to break up but chicken to do it herself? Doesn't want to be "the bad guy"? We've seen it before. I have tried being very honest with my wife on numerous occasions and tried to explain that it is the pain she put me through over so many years until the end of 2012 that has made me feel the way that I do. But she retorts that she thinks I am just trying to seek some sort of weird revenge on her. I assure he that this is not the case and that the way I feel is certainly out of pain rather than revenge, but she will simply not accept that.Men are not entitled to deep feelings. It may be a lost cause convincing your wife that they are there. The conversations sound unpleasant. I have also said that if she really wants sex why will she not dress up in sexy lingerie or the like to help me feel desire, but she will not and never has done this. During our marriage I tried buying her lingerie many times but it always ended up being taken back to the store or ended up in a draw never to be seen again. She thinks that I should just "feel desire because" she is my wife. She does not feel the need to do anything to help the situation.What is it about lingerie that would get you wanting sex with her? Is it the gesture? The appearance? How is nudity less sexy? What does she think it is about being your wife that's arousing? Because it's legal in all 50 states? That it has society's tacit approval? The ring is pretty on her finger? What is it that makes a wife sexier than a girlfriend? Possessiveness? She's mine so she's more attractive to me? If a married partner is a selling point, how do mere single women lure men away for affairs? I'm not sure how her point of view is flattering. If you're in the mood for a tense argument, maybe ask her. ...she does not "need sex" but that she "needs me to pursue her" and so the fact that I stopped asking has just driven her crazy over the last few years. I have absolutely no doubt that if I was suddenly to "meet her needs" that as soon as she felt comfortable again, the sex would just peter out once more.It's called a "reset" around here. Reassurance of her biological value is a sufficient role for husbands in some marriages. Demonstration of that attraction/approval is unnecessary and perhaps beneath someone who is satisfied that their husband is beneath them and should not be encouraged to think of themselves as worthy. I find it plausible there is a biological mechanism underlying this behavior and exploited to great effect by Pick-Up Artist methods. Specifically, the practice of "negging", calling attention to real or fabricated little imperfections in women, undermines women's feelings of self-worth and strengthens their relationship satisfaction through producing unconscious thoughts of receiving great value from obtaining love from a man who will have them despite their flaws, loving them as they are. It's sick shit. You're getting the flip side. As soon as she's confident again, she need no longer put effort into the relationship. It's not always a conscious thing. That doesn't mean she can stop herself, even if she admitted that was part of the dynamic. ...The problem I have is not really the sex issue but the passive aggressive and aggressive behavior that she is exhibiting towards me on an almost daily basis. I learned to live without sex and our relationship settled into a sexless pattern between the end of 2012 and the end of 2017 but the last 3 years have been hell as she has badgered me, told me daily that I am not meeting her needs, that I am leaving her vulnerable to being attracted to someone else, that I am letting her down, that I am on some sick revenge trip, that she would leave the marriage if it were not for the boys and so forth. I came to a point that I could deal with the sexlessness but just over three years of anger being directed at you is debilitating. I'd be curious what needs she claims to have. If it's just having sex, I'd invite her to go to a swingers' club and you can each find someone you want, or if you'd prefer she can be a "hotwife" and get that itch scratched. If it's the reassurance we mentioned before, it's fair to say you needed reassurance for five years and didn't get it. Three years later, you're being reassured by her asking. You've got what she wants. It's not pleasant depriving her. You don't want to. But you were starved for approval and biological validation for five years. Now she's pissed for being without for three? (This assumes she wanted sex the moment you stopped asking, which is doubtful. You're her husband. You are the only honorable resource for her being physically wanted. You've made yourself unavailable and getting sexual validation back requires breaking her vows without your acquiescence. It's sweet that it matters so much to her; matters so much she'd rather wreck your psyche than hurt her own self-image. You, sir, have become a master ninja at handling rejection after 5 years; her conditioning you into a block of solid emotional granite. She's clearly at your mercy. But she'll get stronger. She just needs 2 or three more years to get used to the deadness inside. Then you can both be shells of human beings, together. Til death. But I feel like a captive audience with no obvious options or way out.
So wrong. There are obvious ways out. She's listed them plainly. It's just both of you value the vows; the promises to each other and yourselves... Societal approval of such steadfast weathering of every storm and overcoming hardship and pain is a prize that's very hard to decide not to care about. The worse the obstacles overcome, the bigger the accomplishment. Again, sick shit. That is why the simplest thing would be to "make myself" feel something again and just give her what she wants to appease her, but it has come to the point where I see her as my abuser and I just cannot bring myself to just go through the motions. Furthermore, her incentive to create a healthy dynamic for you is gone if you restore the unrequited love she craves in order to feel valued within the marriage. The urgency for physical intimacy may vanish very quickly, perhaps immediately because she'll know the intimacy is always there if she wants it. That is apparently vital to her life satisfaction in her SM. The sex isn't important, being wanted is. Perhaps you've made your marriage into your SM. After three years, she's very confused how she arrived in this nightmare of her own creation. Rejected, and nowhere to go that doesn't bring about supreme humiliation and scorn. The dilemma you have put her in! You monster! No wonder she's furious. I am not sure affairs are the answer and staying just saps your soul. But it does seem to me on my dark days that my situation is just particularly hard to exit.
Hm. You aren't sure affairs are the answer. That suggests you aren't sure they aren't. Divorces are hard exits. Tis' true. ILIASM stalwart Baza would tell you to "see how a divorce would fall out for you" in your area. Part of what makes this unwanted solution seem unavailable is that in our dark days we are especially crushed and low on energy. On less dark days, you may find that consulting with a lawyer (free appointments for many are available) and obtaining the paperwork and filling it out may provide a sense of control that your wife is seeking to undermine. You never need to pull the trigger, but lowering the bar can provide some help against your feelings of helplessness. The bully is in command, sure, but if you're loading this gun, you'll have that exit and her power will mean less and less. If you have extra copies, they're ready to present should she ever push you too far on a day you're feeling a bit too strong to put up with her whining. Extra copies are mandatory as she may well rip the first set up with great aplomb. While working on divorce prep, perhaps you can brainstorm just what behavior changes you'd demand (not prefer, demand). Building healthy boundaries within which your safety is assured allows you both to know what dynamic you will have. You deserve better than this bare minimum, but your initial post illustrates your boundaries are being crossed daily and identifying just where they are will help you both in the long run. Making you miserable does not suit her needs, whether she knows it or not. Your concern for the children is clear. They can be a factor in deciding what is and is not a "deal-breaker", but it could be a grave mistake to think they are a reason for not identifying boundaries that cannot be crossed. It serves the kids well to see how to handle a bully, does it not? What do they learn watching your wife abuse you? What do they think of marriage when they see this? What would they learn if you left? Would that lesson be a bad one? After that fleshing out of semantics and labels with Apocrypha, thought I'd remember the OP here.
|
|
|
Post by frednsa on Jan 24, 2021 9:59:24 GMT -5
to err is human.......yadayada....i believe if she has many more favorable qualities than unfavorable (frigid to you) forgiveness can be considered. BUT if she dosen't...........- skedaddle ! it will eat you alive.....
i'm camping on your post to help me with my fix. similar to you but only one gal and 60 years of rejection, first; religious, second; child-bearing times, third; child raising times, fourth;- her "career" .......job taken after kids in high school (how important can this be , and so on and so on and so on........................... 60 fucking years.................i begin to question my own sanity; only "eager" moment i can remember was the night i gave approval to a large purchase she wanted and i was on the fence.......after i acquiesced the sex was soooooooo hot (good girl, better actor)
could publish wives' excuse thesaurus: my period, back ache (old), headache (same old), there are people in the house, there are people in the street, there are people in the town, state, country, someone might hear and so on................ad nauseum
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Jan 25, 2021 3:09:36 GMT -5
to err is human.......yadayada....i believe if she has many more favorable qualities than unfavorable (frigid to you) forgiveness can be considered. BUT if she dosen't...........- skedaddle ! it will eat you alive.....
i'm camping on your post to help me with my fix. similar to you but only one gal and 60 years of rejection, first; religious, second; child-bearing times, third; child raising times, fourth;- her "career" .......job taken after kids in high school (how important can this be , and so on and so on and so on........................... 60 fucking years.................i begin to question my own sanity; only "eager" moment i can remember was the night i gave approval to a large purchase she wanted and i was on the fence.......after i acquiesced the sex was soooooooo hot (good girl, better actor)
could publish wives' excuse thesaurus: my period, back ache (old), headache (same old), there are people in the house, there are people in the street, there are people in the town, state, country, someone might hear and so on................ad nauseum
Well said, did you write 60 sexless years? Wow! Share some wisdom! Or chime in to one of the other threads.💕
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Jan 26, 2021 7:13:04 GMT -5
first; religious, second; child-bearing times, third; child raising times, fourth;- her "career" ...and so on and so on and so on...........................
60 fucking years.................i begin to question my own sanity; Well said, did you write 60 sexless years? Wow! Share some wisdom! Or chime in to one of the other threads.💕 Frednsa has been around since 2017. Here's his introduction. iliasm.org/thread/4852/soul-screamingHe said: "...60 fucking years..." Maybe he meant "60 non-fucking years"?
|
|