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Post by DryCreek on Oct 2, 2020 20:53:58 GMT -5
I have the opposite problem. To this day H just will not have it that we were sexless. You’re past that point, but I suppose this is where a calendar comes into play. I kept one for a long time to keep my own perspective in check. I never disclosed it, but it gave me confidence in my statements.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 3, 2020 2:15:56 GMT -5
I have the opposite problem. To this day H just will not have it that we were sexless. You’re past that point, but I suppose this is where a calendar comes into play. I kept one for a long time to keep my own perspective in check. I never disclosed it, but it gave me confidence in my statements. Oh I’ve done the calendar thing. Then I didn’t need to because I can remember four dates in my head. I am curious to know if you would also be driven crackers by the insistence of an ex spouse that your marriage was a fuck-fest of delights. Is it just me? I know it serves no purpose, and I also know he is unlikely to change, but his insistence negates my horrible experiences and that is still maddening.
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Post by h on Oct 3, 2020 6:09:09 GMT -5
Oh I’ve done the calendar thing. Then I didn’t need to because I can remember four dates in my head. I am curious to know if you would also be driven crackers by the insistence of an ex spouse that your marriage was a fuck-fest of delights. Is it just me? I know it serves no purpose, and I also know he is unlikely to change, but his insistence negates my horrible experiences and that is still maddening. Yeah, my W has on multiple occasions expressed to me "last month" or "over the summer" that "we were having sex all the time!" I honestly think she believes that too. I keep a record of it so she can't gaslight me (or anyone else) into believing we have a sex life. Memories can be disputed but written records, not so easily. *By (anyone else) I was referring to professional third parties. If she wants to go to a marriage counselor, I want don't want her skewing the situation. If she wants to go to a fertility doctor, I want it known that we don't actually have sex and that's why we never had children. Etc..
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Post by pfviento on Oct 3, 2020 14:40:54 GMT -5
I'm curious what others' experiences are that eventually got the courage to ask for a separation.
I'm planning to have another "things have to change" talk in the next week or two. Such talks have been fruitless in the past and I'm not optimistic anything will change for the better in the long run. There are two reasons I still want to have this talk. The first reason is I feel like I have to at least try again before I pursue the next step - consulting a lawyer. The fact that I tried will give me peace of mind later. The second reason is to let her know that I'll be pursuing individual counseling to address the depression and self-esteem issues to which the SM has contributed. This counseling piece would be something different to "the talk" and her reaction will let me know if she has any insight into my true feelings.
To her credit, during a past talk, she did open up to me and said she would be happy never having sex again in her life. That was my moment of clarity. That was the point I joined ILIASM and started to really weigh my options. It was also the point at which I abandoned hope of being happy in a monogamous married relationship with her.
My question to the forum is this: Why do I feel like my eventual ask for a separation is going to be a major bombshell when I eventually do it, despite these talks we've had? She's not getting my best and clearly does not desire physical intimacy with me, yet I still feel like she'll have no idea it's come to this. Did your refusers know your desire for separation was coming or were they shocked when it happened?
If you are going to have that conversation it would be best if you have taken concrete steps should that conversation not go well. I don't think the request will come as shock. You have talked. If talking was going to get her to change the fact that you expressed you were hurting should have been sufficient. The fact that it hasn't tells you what you need to know. In my situation we had plenty of communication and I had long been talking about separating or stepping out of the marriage. I truly believe she honestly did not believe I would do it. I know the concept given that I work in a mental health unit. We teach never draw a line you won't enforce if crossed and never threaten a consequence you are not going to follow up on. It kills your credibility. She knew I was hesitant to leave my daughter and an ongoing Child Protective Services situation with my nephew who we were now caring for. I had been raised in the system and I was very vocal I did not want that for him due to his parents rampant substance abuse issues. Several things happened that changed that in my mind. I had purposely passed on buying a new car and had instead saved the money. I took a class for a certification I wanted instead to give me more job options and I quietly did little things she never really picked up on. I had always kept our finances mostly separated. I quietly prepared for a move and made sure I was ready to go. In the end she did me a favor by filing for divorce when I finally started getting angry about the long term sleep deprivation due to her having an inability to get up when she needed to. Even then I marvel at the idea that she thought that might bring me to heel. In our conversations she really believed that doing so might grant her the upper hand and that due to her higher earnings would leave me dependent on her. Once she indicated she was filing and would not undo it. It lifted the burden off me. I eagerly went to her attorney and signed it. They did not have to track me down. Shock One for her was after she signed paperwork saying we were legally separated and I didn't come home one day till almost 4 a.m. She was waiting for me in the driveway. I could tell she had her suspicions and my only comment at the time was "You signed legal paperwork saying we have been legally separated since last month ... It's not my day to take care of the kids so I owe you no explanations". Shock Two for her was I got a call from an apartment rental place. Accepted pretty much first unit I could get. Rushed to get the paperwork done. Moved out in just a few hours. I could see the tears but this is one time I felt it was no longer my responsibility to shield her from the consequences of her actions. I reminded her "I warned you this day would come. I have told you for years. You ignored it and took advantage. I'm sorry you are hurting but ultimately this the path you picked." Shock Three: Probably the collapse of all order. I had been doing the majority of the laundry. Suddenly there were issues getting clothes for our daughter that were clean. Clothes were piled on the bed all the time or left in the dryer. She missed several days of work by oversleeping along with frequent tardiness. Missed a mandatory on-call. She was forced back to night shift to try to save her job. Children became unmanageable. Nephew had to be sent to her parents to live because she could just not manage him. I just continued living my life expressed sympathy but did not rush to salvage anything. Now she wants to undo it. The Desire for Separation was not a shock and should not be if you have had open communication. Actions taken are about the only thing that will probably shock somebody if there has been open communication. If you are in this forum I can't imagine you not having had at least a conversation with the spouse about wanting to leave.
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Post by DryCreek on Oct 4, 2020 11:29:10 GMT -5
I am curious to know if you would also be driven crackers by the insistence of an ex spouse that your marriage was a fuck-fest of delights. Is it just me? I know it serves no purpose, and I also know he is unlikely to change, but his insistence negates my horrible experiences and that is still maddening. Crackers? Yes. The story here unfolds differently, but with a nice smack-down. She would claim (to me, and probably her friends) that I groped her all the time, until the day she made that claim during a joint counseling session and I pointed out that I hadn’t touched her sexually in 2 years so it wasn’t possible. She shut up after that. W is too ashamed of sex to speak of intimacy publicly, so bold claims are unlikely to ever be a problem here. But she does love to gaslight / project that I’m upset or discontent about things when I’m not. I’ve put her on notice for it and started calling BS on the spot, but I fully expect she’ll continue that with her friends. Fortunately, we have different friends.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 4, 2020 12:46:47 GMT -5
I am sorry that is your reality. Your W sounds rather controlling. I can’t abide mind games, I could not tolerate that.
My H has his faults but playing mind games and manipulation has never been a problem. I believe he is telling his truth, hard to call that out. Hard and pointless.
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Post by jerri on Oct 4, 2020 22:50:08 GMT -5
I have the opposite problem. To this day H just will not have it that we were sexless. All in my imagination, we had a rigorous and fun filled sex life and I simply overlooked it. What is worse is that I believe he is being truthful here, he really is that deluded about our frequency. It’s not worth the mental energy to even have the conversation. But it pisses me off mightily. It's not a problem if they don't accept it. Easy. My friend said his wife said,"I don't know how often we have sex, I just don't think about it".
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 5, 2020 6:21:18 GMT -5
I am no longer the refused. There is freedom and power in that for me. Some day I will have a new life. I see the light at the end of this long dark tunnel and I'm getting off at the next stop. This joyful recognition of hope is so contrary to the angry tone of your wife's refusal. As the time nears, I hope the joy will eclipse the (understandable) anger. If it's not too much the Polyanna, perhaps be kind to her, knowing she may have a very lonely future ahead?
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 5, 2020 6:27:57 GMT -5
Yeah, my W has on multiple occasions expressed to me "last month" or "over the summer" that "we were having sex all the time!" I honestly think she believes that too. I keep a record of it so she can't gaslight me (or anyone else) into believing we have a sex life. Memories can be disputed but written records, not so easily. It could be fun (not productive or successful) to ask a refuser's estimate of frequency they were capable of, cut it in half, then mark the calendar with that very "doable" frequency. Circle the dates and as they come to pass mark the date with, "Oops", "So close!", "Whiff", "Not so much", etc. When the calendar disappears? Point made. Again, just to amuse ourselves. Absolute backfire if you get regular, starfish sex. (At least for many of us.)
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Post by shamwow on Oct 5, 2020 7:19:50 GMT -5
When I told my ex I wanted a divorce, I do think she was shocked. Sure I'd never mentioned the D-word before, but I'd expressed I was unhappy numerous times. I just never issued an ultimatum "this needs to get better or I'm gone" until I was ready to pull the trigger.
Counseling? Nope. Long talks to "work it out"? Nope. Neither of those tactics would make that woman want me and their only purpose was to get me to question myself and weaken my resolve.
So yeah, she was shocked, but she was only really upset when I informed her that she will need to get a job...
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Post by sweetplumeria on Oct 10, 2020 8:53:28 GMT -5
Incidently, you don't ask for a separation or divorce. You TAKE it. No one elses' agreement or approval is required. Baz, sometimes its the obvious that we need to hear and be empowered to do. Thanks for still saying it.
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Post by sweetplumeria on Oct 10, 2020 8:54:32 GMT -5
I have the opposite problem. To this day H just will not have it that we were sexless. All in my imagination, we had a rigorous and fun filled sex life and I simply overlooked it. What is worse is that I believe he is being truthful here, he really is that deluded about our frequency. It’s not worth the mental energy to even have the conversation. But it pisses me off mightily. Dates are hard to argue with.
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Post by ironhamster on Oct 11, 2020 0:10:20 GMT -5
I have the opposite problem. To this day H just will not have it that we were sexless. All in my imagination, we had a rigorous and fun filled sex life and I simply overlooked it. What is worse is that I believe he is being truthful here, he really is that deluded about our frequency. It’s not worth the mental energy to even have the conversation. But it pisses me off mightily. Dates are hard to argue with. I think it is common that the refusers get delusional. At the end of our second year of marriage, my ex would not accept that we had only had sex ten times, until I showed her the box of a dozen condoms with two still unused. She at least stopped arguing about it. I think sex averse people remember sex like a traumatic injury. It always feels like it just happened, and they really don't want to go through it again.
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