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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 7:07:24 GMT -5
I'm curious what others' experiences are that eventually got the courage to ask for a separation.
I'm planning to have another "things have to change" talk in the next week or two. Such talks have been fruitless in the past and I'm not optimistic anything will change for the better in the long run. There are two reasons I still want to have this talk. The first reason is I feel like I have to at least try again before I pursue the next step - consulting a lawyer. The fact that I tried will give me peace of mind later. The second reason is to let her know that I'll be pursuing individual counseling to address the depression and self-esteem issues to which the SM has contributed. This counseling piece would be something different to "the talk" and her reaction will let me know if she has any insight into my true feelings.
To her credit, during a past talk, she did open up to me and said she would be happy never having sex again in her life. That was my moment of clarity. That was the point I joined ILIASM and started to really weigh my options. It was also the point at which I abandoned hope of being happy in a monogamous married relationship with her.
My question to the forum is this: Why do I feel like my eventual ask for a separation is going to be a major bombshell when I eventually do it, despite these talks we've had? She's not getting my best and clearly does not desire physical intimacy with me, yet I still feel like she'll have no idea it's come to this. Did your refusers know your desire for separation was coming or were they shocked when it happened?
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Post by baza on Oct 1, 2020 7:39:10 GMT -5
"If" you did ask for a separation, it probably would be a "bombshell".
Given that you have played the talk card several times before - and then not followed through - she is likely to have learned not to take the talks terribly seriously. You've shred your cred. She probably figures - quite reasonably based on your actions up to now - that there is no reasonable threat to the union. So it will indeed be a big and nasty surprise to her "if" you followed the talk through this time.
Incidently, you don't ask for a separation or divorce. You TAKE it. No one elses' agreement or approval is required.
In my ILIASM deal the last talk was about a year before I left. I'd done all my prep work (seeing a lawyer etc) and during a conversation that turned in to a fight she was unwise enough to play the divorce card herself. I accepted the card then played mine. I was outta there 2 and a bit days later. There was no final talk.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Oct 1, 2020 8:02:45 GMT -5
Mine was shocked even though he had no reason to be. I played no games, I did not pretend ,he knew exactly how unhappy I was with the marriage. I refused to celebrate anniversaries because what were we celebrating really? He still, 3 years after I moved out keeps saying he has no idea or he would have fixed it. He's lying to himself and me. Needless to say we communicate very little.
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Post by Handy on Oct 1, 2020 13:25:19 GMT -5
cincyguy say some things to your W like things are not working for you. I vote wait to say you are leaving AFTER you do some individual counseling and see a lawyer. Do the telling it is over after because each resource will most likely include some practical suggestions you didn't think of before counseling and knowing how the law works in your area.
The wrong information (pre-counseling and pre-lawyer) might work out to be additional false opinions you heard about or say someone else do, which might have been OK for someone else but will not be OK for your situation.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 1, 2020 13:42:22 GMT -5
I'm curious what others' experiences are that eventually got the courage to ask for a separation.
I'm planning to have another "things have to change" talk in the next week or two. Such talks have been fruitless in the past and I'm not optimistic anything will change for the better in the long run. There are two reasons I still want to have this talk. The first reason is I feel like I have to at least try again before I pursue the next step - consulting a lawyer. The fact that I tried will give me peace of mind later. The second reason is to let her know that I'll be pursuing individual counseling to address the depression and self-esteem issues to which the SM has contributed. This counseling piece would be something different to "the talk" and her reaction will let me know if she has any insight into my true feelings.
To her credit, during a past talk, she did open up to me and said she would be happy never having sex again in her life. That was my moment of clarity. That was the point I joined ILIASM and started to really weigh my options. It was also the point at which I abandoned hope of being happy in a monogamous married relationship with her. My question to the forum is this: Why do I feel like my eventual ask for a separation is going to be a major bombshell when I eventually do it, despite these talks we've had? She's not getting my best and clearly does not desire physical intimacy with me, yet I still feel like she'll have no idea it's come to this. Did your refusers know your desire for separation was coming or were they shocked when it happened? I believe you are not serious about separation but are simply being hyperbolic. It's likely she can see that too, so if you actually separated, that would be a bombshell. Here's what I see: 1. You said you abandoned hope, but your intended action is to try again. Those are mutually contradicting. I'll go with what you DO rather than what you say. Your intention is to have another talk. 2. You said your talks have been fruitless in the past. That's not correct. She's been very clear to you about what her answer is - that's important information you didn't have, and very few people actually get it. Most are gaslit for years. You have said you don't anticipate a change on her part. You have not indicated that changes on her part have happened either, so "trying again" with no new information telegraphs to me that the claim that you might do something at some future point is intended as leverage to change her behavior. 3. You have not consulted a lawyer. This would be a logical first step for someone who intends to separate. 4. You are articulating a plan of action for you to seek counselling - which I am reading like you are posing it as another preceding step to separation, and likely preceding seeking legal counsel as well. I'm not opposed to going into individual counselling; however you are posing it as a way to determine whether she has insight into your true feelings. Your feelings are immaterial here, as far as it goes with her attraction to you and what will happen next. Your desire for her, and for sex in your marriage, does not translate into reciprocal desire for you. The two of you do not SHARE a unique sexual attraction. She has made her views crystal clear. How you feel about it cannot change her level of desire, nor give you additional information. What other information is left to gain? 5. You have phrased your subverted intention as "asking" for a separation, rather than putting together a plan in which to separate. You don't need permission to separate. You need a statement. The discussion isn't about whether a separation will happen, but rather about how it will be conducted, and the level of cooperation you two will intend to carry it out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 14:32:09 GMT -5
Mine was not happy, but not shocked either, I don't think. If he was, he didn't show it. Like all previously have mentioned, though, if you've said you were leaving before and did not follow through, you likely won't be taken seriously this time until the moving truck is there and gone with you and your things. One thing I learned, it was useless for me to threaten to leave thinking that would somehow get his attention and get him to do what I needed him to do. In the end, my ending things was for my peace of mind - period. I gave up thinking he would ever change. In other words, saying you're leaving as a ploy to evoke some sort of desperation response most likely won't have the effect you may be desiring, so make sure you're serious before you utter those words and are ready to take the necessary steps to complete that plan. From my history, if they want to change, they will and it won't take moving mountains to get them to do so. If they're not actively working with you constructively to fix things, they don't care, so move on.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 1, 2020 15:49:38 GMT -5
As a point of difference with some of the posters above, I never threatened to leave before our separation. It was rather more a “I’m very unhappy and I need you to listen to me about why” kind of thing (mostly about other aspects of the relationship but lack of intimacy was in the mix). I doubt I would have threatened anything, for me if you have to do that the moment to act has passed. So, although I hadn’t specifically said I was thinking of calling time on the marriage I had certainly indicated I was close to the end of my tether. But of course he was not paying attention. He was very happy so anything other than sunshine and rainbows was just noise.
You asked about the moment. Despite deciding I needed to leave, I didn’t plan to drop the bomb at a specific moment in time that I did it. I had a “can’t take one more day“ moment. The words just came tumbling out. I chose my words very, very carefully, and found myself using skills from breaking bad news from another role in life. I said “I cannot be your wife any longer”. Not don’t want to, or I’m leaving you- it was important to me to express that things had gotten so bad that leaving was a necessity rather than a choice. I hoped the “can’t” took the sting out of it. Despite trying to get his attention for the previous 15 years he was utterly blindsided. He later told me that the prospect of me leaving had never occurred to him. I asked what more I could have done to get his attention before it was too late, and he told me that there wasn’t anything else I could have done, “I just wasn’t listening”.
H had an exceptionally hard time and was unable to function or work for 5 months. It was very hard to see. Funnily enough, despite never specifically discussing my marriage with anyone, no-one was in the slightest bit surprised by my news when I shared it. Not my friends, colleagues, family and our children. They all knew our marriage was crap without explanation and were unexpectedly very supportive. They all knew I was miserable and why. I had braced myself for judgement, but nope, a unanimous “good for you”. H saw nothing because all was well in his world.
In case you’re wondering that was Jan 2019. Today we are cordial and cooperative parents. H is still miserable at times but functioning and trying to get his act together. He recently tried his hand at on-line dating, but this didn’t go well and made him more miserable.
I would also like to be clear that this was NOT the hardest thing in life I have ever done, it wouldn’t get in the top five actually. The prospect was far worse than the reality. I’ve dealt with what came after as I had to. As have our children (14 & 17 at the time) who were and remain supportive of my choice. I wish I had known how do-able it was in my case. Of course every set of circumstances are unique, but I hope my story is helpful to others.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 1, 2020 18:18:42 GMT -5
I'm curious what others' experiences are that eventually got the courage to ask for a separation. Baza and Apocrypha read between your lines the same things I did. Bless your heart, you really really really wish things would get better and don't want to leave. You're a sweetheart. I never wanted separation. I told her in February 2017 "This will not stand." She reacted with embarrassment and sadness knowing I'd bent over backwards, giving her space, getting closer, making suggestions that were ignored. When she found out I had been on a date, that was a mild shock. Bombshell would overstate it. When she asked if I'd be dating again, I told her yes when my daughter went back to college. She was quite subdued. Possibly sad and embarrassed again since she hadn't done anything to change the situation that had me about to outsource. Part of her reaction to my plans was bringing it up to her therapist after which our reset began in November 2019. What her emotional state was in that process I wasn't privy to.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Oct 1, 2020 19:24:46 GMT -5
I sought counseling for myself, but whenever H asked me about it, I just glossed over what we were covering. I got legal advice on my own, without tipping my hand about it. I worked on my announcement to him on my own, with some input from therapist and a dear ILIASM friend (oh - and also a sister).
I did not ASK him to grant me a divorce, I announced to him that I would be moving out, filing the paperwork, and divorcing him. I volunteered to attend one therapy session with him (service provider of his choice), with the specific intent to help him with navigating the process. {We did that, it was kinda dumb and I ended up paying for that visit}
Anyway - he feigned surprise at different times, pretended to really care about it at other times, went on about his merry isolated way at other times. The thing about a narcissistic person is this: they will say or do anything to entertain their own fantasy. My H would just "say things" - who cares what the MEANING was, it was all about would it be the magic words to get me to 'go along' with acting like things were fine.
So - whether the partner feigns surprised, is actually surprised, or simply dreaded this phase {knowing all along that it was coming} is simply not germaine. It is not relevant to your decision. It really isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 22:21:30 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the responses. I should clarify that the talk I plan to have soon is just that I'm not happy with the status quo and starting counseling. I'm not ready yet for the much more serious talk of separation. I've mentioned in other posts that I'm still in it for my kids, still getting my own shit together, still need to seek legal counsel, and still 100% owning all of these decisions at this point.
I was just curious from those that eventually got to the point of separation, after what I assume were many discussions about SM and other facets of why the marriage wasn't working, if the refuser was still surprised. It sounds like it's mixed bag but generally not too much of a surprise for most.
Fair point on not "asking" for separation. When I'm ready, it will be a declaration rather than an ask.
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Post by ScottDinTN on Oct 2, 2020 5:52:56 GMT -5
The last time we had the talk (over 3 years ago) I told her I had one foot out the door and was considering leaving. She seemed to take it a little more seriously this time. In that talk, I told her that this was the last time I would bring it up. That if things didn't change, I wouldn't complain but things would just start changing on my end.
We had a follow up meeting where we agreed we would both go to counseling individually, she would start hormone therapy, and I would stop hanging out with any of my sex positive friends (who I went to for support but it disgusted her).
I fulfilled my end of the bargain. She started hormone therapy which only made her a witch around the house for some reason. She never went to counseling even after I made her an appointment twice because she was "too busy". She then announced she didn't need counseling because things were better.
That's when the switch flipped for me. I vowed to never wear my wedding ring again, I moved into the basement and started remodeling it as a separate apartment, and I told her I couldn't take the rejection any longer and would never touch her sexual again.
When I decide to leave some day, I think she will be shocked and will play the victim to others. But I will not make a big deal of it. I'll just tell her I plan to be out by the end of the week like its no bid deal. If she wants to try to save things I will say its too late.
She is the queen of denial and I think she will deal with it well once the initial shock wears off. She always likes to bury and hide relational problems from others.
I think the reason refusers are shocked when the refused actually leave is that they honestly don't see sex as important to a marriage. Its just a small thing to them and not even essential to a good marriage in their mind. They can't conceve that not having a good sex life would be a valid reason for someone to leave a marriage since its not something they desire. Honestly, they will never understand how we feel and realizing that changed things for me.
I am no longer the refused. There is freedom and power in that for me. Some day I will have a new life. I see the light at the end of this long dark tunnel and I'm getting off at the next stop.
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Post by warmways on Oct 2, 2020 6:36:01 GMT -5
Mine acted very very hurt and played the victim. I had shred my cred by failing to follow through a few times before and agreeing to marriage counseling with him a few times. He tried to convince me to stay and almost succeeded. It was painful to not give in only because I had such a pattern of reconciliation even when I was miserable. It’s all worth it now.
Wishing you strength and ability to see the long view.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 6:56:53 GMT -5
Good call on “declaration.” My roller coaster ride: 8.9.2018 W forgot our 15th anniversary. After having also forgotten our 14th the year prior. 8.11.2018 I told her “I can’t do this anymore.” With no apparent shock or bombshell, she asked to go to marriage counseling, after having refused same previously. Predictably, her efforts were less than minimal and this was a disaster. 11.10.2019 She pushed me to the edge with her controlling BS, so I asked if she wanted to be single again. With no apparent bombshell, she said “yes.” She then proceeded to tell coworkers and uninvited me from her company Xmas party. She seemed totally at peace with this, and I thought we were both handling it fine. 12.3.2019 I presented a settlement offer prepared by an attorney. (Not yet filing for divorce). This is where the shit hit the fan. She was either shocked I actually had the guts to do it, or she was feigning surprise to garner sympathy from the kids and her folks. I called her out on this bullshit in front of our youngest. 12.30.2019 Formally filed for divorce. 6.9.2020 Judge officially unhitched the ball and chain. To my recollection, she has only spoken (1) word directly to me since 12.3.19, even though I stayed in the house through the end of May. Question for you: To her credit, during a past talk, she did open up to me and said she would be happy never having sex again in her life. How did you respond to this?
This is going to sound crazy, but I honestly don't remember my immediate response. I remember her saying it like it was yesterday, but I think because it was such an overwhelming thing to hear her say, I might have said very little in response or she might have even quickly gone on a tangent herself. At that time I was still 80% I can fix this and 20% it's hopeless. After hearing that, I'm now 5% I can fix this and 95% it's hopeless. Why do I hang on to the 5%? Both my penis and my wallet are foolish optimists I suppose.
My long term response has been to improve myself, spend more time in my hobbies, get more social, emotionally distance myself from her, and plan plan plan.
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 2, 2020 8:24:23 GMT -5
To her credit, during a past talk, she did open up to me and said she would be happy never having sex again in her life.
My X said the exact same thing to me, although it was several years after we were divorced. I expect she felt this way for a substantial part of our marriage, but didn't voice it because she knew intimacy was important to me. But after enough years passed I think she felt confident there were enough good things in the marriage that I would hang around even if it meant being celibate. She also, after the divorce, stated "she never thought she would be divorced a 2nd time". So she was surprised, even though I had specifically stated during our talks that I could not and would not stay in a sexless marriage. I guess that part went in one ear and out the other.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 2, 2020 16:02:55 GMT -5
I have the opposite problem. To this day H just will not have it that we were sexless. All in my imagination, we had a rigorous and fun filled sex life and I simply overlooked it. What is worse is that I believe he is being truthful here, he really is that deluded about our frequency.
It’s not worth the mental energy to even have the conversation. But it pisses me off mightily.
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