|
Post by mirrororchid on Aug 17, 2020 5:25:26 GMT -5
======================= Here's one I mean to bust out if my wife's reset collapses and she pleads with me not to take a FWB: Wow, are you talking about reset sex because she doesn't want you to have FWB?
I love the example and I would say that my H is a seal in that he doesn't want me to have sex with another man, but felt much better when I didn't leave him and said he felt relieved that I was having sex outside the marriage, but doesn't want the details and wants me to hide it as an affair would. That is the light side of it. It took several years, just to get him to not act out. He was really cruel and I just bit my tongue and it paid off. He used to explode when I would go have sex. Finally, we figured out that a "Don't Ask Don't Tell" would be appropriate since I don't like to reveal what I am doing/ he gets hurt because he feels left out. My answer to that was to give him extra attention in other areas. He loves to be served coffee, special treats, cooking his faves. That's the trade. It is worth the effort. That is extremely difficult as we both work from home now. I am not sure what I will say because he thinks I don't need a warm body. Yes. We're currently in reset to stop me from dating a FWB.
W brought me to her first therapy meeting and I admitting the dating was happening. Therapist was stunned I planned to "cheat" and admitted it.
Very soon after, the reset happened. Not sure the W expected her therapist to be on my side. (We'd been clocking in at 4 or 5 times a year for four years straight.) I don't think my W knew how often, but must have known sex was rare.
The extra love in ways he appreciates are a good tactic. Maybe you picked that up from the Polyamory info. Usually about addressing jealousy, but works for retainging teh trappings of marriage with none of that icky "sex" adulty stuff. ======================================
I am guessing he will think it is insensitive to even be thinking of sex during covid. My hormones are very different from his. He will most likely tag me on that because I am risking getting covid.
So let him tag. He has the means by which to tide you over, and chooses not to provide it. Some STIs are lethal. He didn't seem so afraid of that. Monogamy is an excellent way to protect one's health. But if monogamy is off the table (he's insisting on agamy/celibacy), he can come up with another answer. COVIDs been going on months. Might for months more. Just how does he think bodily appetites work? Would he have you eat once a week if he was afraid of grocery store trips? Sure, you'd survive, but expect irritability, confusion and possibly resentment. Perhaps he doesn't realize that life without sex (or daily food, to recall the analogy) isn't that precious. Refusers find that unfathomable, but a failure of empathy isn't our malfunction (in this case).
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Aug 17, 2020 6:37:40 GMT -5
... I would be contributing to a private divorce fund so I wasn't put in a bind if or when divorce suddenly becomes the main concern.
This plan has been talked about in other threads, but given the legal requirements of disclosure during the divorce process, is there such a thing as a "private fund"? Perhaps there is, but it'll get split along with any "public funds" so there may be little point.
Keeping prep private may be counterproductive. Perhaps setting aside "legal fund" money can be a demonstration of one's commitment to fixing the intimacy problem one way or another.
"Sorry hon, no vaca this year. We need that money for lawyers."
"Sorry babe, no new car. I'm setting that aside for my alimony payments. Since you get half of anything I save, I have to save twice as much. Damn shame we're splitting up. Wish there were something we could do. Y'know, once a week or so."
... Your energy is best spent taking care of yourself as if your H barely existed.... the sooner you accept other people to be "who they are," the fewer disappointments and the less pain you will experience.
Not sure about this. Unlike many refusers, her H is at least open to her meeting physical needs outside. If he were incapable of sex, rather than unwilling, would we question her acts of kindness? It sounds like she was okay until COVID made her H want her to forego her FsWB. If she wants to toss the hand grenade, okay, but if she was okay before and could be again, maybe abandoning her ties to her H won't serve her well.
He's smart, and generous, but for all intents and purposes, asexual. (acknowledging Apocrypha's usual caveat). Is she okay finding physical needs met elsewhere? Then maybe there's no harm, no foul. Heck, how many of our refusers would thank the Almighty for a spouse like hers?
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Aug 17, 2020 10:27:27 GMT -5
The communication steps 1-3 are all well and good, but they strike me as an inquiry into "why chasing". If you get through steps 1-3 and don't provide #4 (alternative suggestion), it's just more detailed refusal. If a spouse gives alternative choices for intimacy would we even be aware of steps 1-3? Steps 1-3 might be good ideas for talking through emotional roadblocks with the goal of feeling close enough to engage in intimacy. Many a refused partner is all for making intimacy as fulfilling as possible for our former refuser. If this video encouraged them to try it, just for F's sake. Great. Maybe they've had partners that damaged them like in the voyeur incident he proposed as a hypothetical. This touches on the "abuse" rationale that is behind some refusal and may secretly lurk behind some other refusers. Good share. I'm curious about his other materials.
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Aug 17, 2020 16:46:21 GMT -5
linkhttps://images.app.goo.gl/pmZDnKZaz5J7zEKu8I only have a promise, but I have a promise after almost two decades of no sex whatsoever! Don't get your hopes up! I played the sexless marriage video with Michelle. I don't know what to think! I need to go get STI tested! My poor friend with benefits is going to be crushed, possibly, if he even believes it! Yesterday, I just hung out in my room and listened to audio. This morning I went in his bedroom and said, hey love, I am making coffee for you and I reached over and gave him a big tight hug! He said, I've been thinking, I can give you sex once a month. I started balling. I was so overwhelmed! If l do get to have sex, I don't know how much I should reveal that I actually know? I'm really afraid he's going to be very disappointed when he knows how much I've learned. He used to tell me please take the science out of the bedroom! This is not an experiment! All I really wanted to do was practice would I had been reading! Mr. sexless married man let me practice on him all I wanted! I don't think this will work, I'm not a dry mattress. It may or may not be real! Love you all, 💜
|
|
|
Post by baza on Aug 18, 2020 4:12:22 GMT -5
Sister jerri . The vibe I'm getting out of your posts thus far is that you seem to have to go to extraordinary lengths and jump through innumerable hoops to get a root. And, on the rare rare occasions when you jump through the hoops in the right order etc, the root you might get ain't particularly memorable anyway. The reward for effort ratio seems heavily skewed against you. Could a case be made to get your focus off your spouse, and focused more on you and your future ?
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Aug 19, 2020 1:42:49 GMT -5
Mirror orchid, DH announced that we would get frisky on date night this week. I said, does that mean we have sex on every third Friday? He said, no, you can have it more often. I don't even remember what he looks like hard, but I do remember the good times. Mr. Sexless FWB said, good for you, I hope he keeps his word. 🤞 His wife doesn't have the patience to get him hard. I told him to get himself hard. Right, take matters into your own ✋ I started out like you did and went to therapy, but I went to therapy after I blurted out that I would be getting sex elsewhere. Can you please give me some of the conversation you all had in therapy? 💜
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Aug 19, 2020 6:03:44 GMT -5
Mirror orchid, DH announced that we would get frisky on date night this week. I said, does that mean we have sex on every third Friday? He said, no, you can have it more often. I don't even remember what he looks like hard, but I do remember the good times. Mr. Sexless FWB said, good for you, I hope he keeps his word. His wife doesn't have the patience to get him hard. I told him to get himself hard. Right, take matters into your own I started out like you did and went to therapy, but I went to therapy after I blurted out that I would be getting sex elsewhere. Can you please give me some of the conversation you all had in therapy? 💜 Hm. I imagine the hardcore cynicism of the ILIASM population would say the promises for more than monthly will bear more weight once there's been some action. DO you have a deadline in mind? This may be a stalling tactic. If so, I'd suggest having a plan in mind and following through. You can share this deadline with him, or not. He said this "week." Monday you may wish to pursue measures for breaking your dry spell. Maybe get the STI test, post it (personal info redacted) on your dating profile and demand to see the same from anyone who messages you. Progress towards a normal life lifted my spirits immensely, though I never "cheated" before we reset. I would have kept my lips zipped to FWB, though. If H is blowing smoke, you'll need to admit you were snookered. Then again, maybe monthly would be insufficient and you'd need FWB to supplement H. Maybe H would stop trying if monthly wasn't enough. Monthly is REALLY close to the agreed upon definition of sexless. It's tough to say you're out of line needing more than 20% above a sexless marriage. I called this "handing the candy out with an eyedropper" when it was 5 per year. 12 would still fit. My prospective FWB, Kathy, wished me well with my wife, but I do not know if she's still available. I may ask for her company soon. My wife has been surly as hell of late. I think it's her job. Budget cuts have made it tougher, the long hours are getting to her and she's angry when I point out the luxuries she buys with the money will be impossible if she quits. Mad at me because numbers don't care if you like your job or not. We can live a very good life on my salary alone. But she'll need to stop shopping and cook two or three times a week and compared with the high life she has now. I can see why it looks like a wall of flame impossible to pass through. I was invited to my wife's personal therapy session with an eye towards getting some feedback towards what problem she faced and those we shared (a family tragedy I won't inject a buzzkill into the thread for). My W with a half teasing tone brought up my dating. The therapist was shocked I admitted it and planned to continue. She conveyed her shared belief with my wife that marriage should be monogamous and asked how I thought of "opening my marriage". I expressed some shock of my own that she'd not yet encountered one and may be ill equipped to handle things if it shocked her so. I wasn't invited to the second session, but W asked if I planned to keep dating maybe a month later and I told her "January". (because my younger daughter went back to school then). A week or so later, the reset began. I think the therapist got the full story and got a clear-eyed understanding why opening our marriage was an entirely sensible action on my part. She may have advocated for my POV and the reset was the result. (again. Me speculating.)
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Aug 19, 2020 10:08:52 GMT -5
jerri , you seem to hope that rational and logical arguments will motivate a change. I don’t think he can be reasoned into wanting intimacy with you, regardless of how sound your case may be. Perhaps he might believe the pain as expressed by someone other than yourself, and that might motivate him emotionally instead of logically. I had the idea that reading 100 of the posts and their comments at www.reddit.com/r/deadbedrooms would paint a more impactful, believable picture than I could convey. If he could be bothered to read; my W didn’t. He flat out rolled his eyes at the mere suggestion and picked up a book and started reading vocally to drown me out. I got silent and just watched his eyes. Amazing how such an intellectual man can be so childish. I said as I was leaving the room, what about covid? Can't you just give me intimacy until covid is over? He put down the book and turned out the light. I had these fantasies that I would water-fast and just not cook and just go silent when he wanted his meals. I'm going to hurt either way, better to not be silent and act like all is well. Dr John Gottman's research indicates that rolling eyes is the purest indicator of contempt -and a near 100% indicator of an imminent divorce. It's unrecoverable. It's also likely the real reason - not aesexuality - that you are not having sex. People avoid sex with those whom they hold in contempt, or if they don't feel comfortable with the obligations that might be attached to the sex (ie. to be fully present and intentional in a relationship). You can easily see this if you rewind to prior to marriage and think of any single person you held in enough contempt to roll your eyes at in an interaction, and try to imagine yourself wanting that person enough to kiss him. Like mirrororchid , I also had a period of an open relationship in several formats across several years. I also had years of trying logical arguments touting the benefits of a sexual life to my wife, as if she was somewhat unaware or had forgotten what they were. Phase 1 was " don't ask don't tell". Fully permissioned, I got as far as a walk with a beautiful older woman with a ravenous appetite for younger men, and a sexy makeout upon saying good night. It was onerous to keep such a significant development in my life a secret, and to a degree - executionally difficult. Eventually, my wife saw a text come in and she immediately began pulling that thread, with her anxiety and anger rising the more evasive I became. The " Don't ask" part of the equation was abandoned at the first hurdle. I told her everything. She treated me with contempt for two days, and then reset to cold indifference - while also acknowledging that she had indeed "given permission". This was the first indication of what I would later see as her total unsuitability for this and related non-monogamous arrangements. Specifically, her coping tactic for resentment and contempt was to disconnect further, whereas mine was to lean in to the primary relations. I knew that an open relationship would never work if we merely "tolerated". If so, it would further drain gas from our tank and eventually we'd split. I found agreeing to this put all of the work, shame and risk of hiding things on me - essentially making a distinction without a difference between a don't ask don't tell and an affair. I also found that despite the discussions and permissions granted, it amounted to kicking the can further down the road. Infidelity/non-monogamy is like jumping off a cliff into the sea. Are there rocks just under the waves? There is no way to reasonably know how a person will react, even if they ostensibly support it. Where sex is involved, there is a definite before and after, and in the after, you can find yourself in a different place, staring across a chasm. Not that that's the wrong place - it's likely a more honest appraisal of the situation. If it goes badly, and almost all of that depends on your partner's reaction to it - to you - you might as well have had an affair. That's how your partner will treat you. And also, I'd suggest that it is the actual intent of your partner who already holds you in contempt and wishes to overtly enact and express that dynamic, with you in a contemptuous role.
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Aug 19, 2020 10:32:39 GMT -5
Mirror orchid, DH announced that we would get frisky on date night this week. I said, does that mean we have sex on every third Friday? He said, no, you can have it more often. I don't even remember what he looks like hard, but I do remember the good times. Mr. Sexless FWB said, good for you, I hope he keeps his word. His wife doesn't have the patience to get him hard. I told him to get himself hard. Right, take matters into your own I started out like you did and went to therapy, but I went to therapy after I blurted out that I would be getting sex elsewhere. Can you please give me some of the conversation you all had in therapy? 💜 Hm. I imagine the hardcore cynicism of the ILIASM population would say the promises for more than monthly will bear more weight once there's been some action. DO you have a deadline in mind? This may be a stalling tactic. If so, I'd suggest having a plan in mind and following through. Past behavior is indicative of future behavior. If he follows through it will be because the first video impacted him somewhat. Although prone masturbation may be winking at him. I do support masturbation, but not in lieu of sex. Depending how l feel, I am willing to give him slack during covid.You can share this deadline with him, or not. He said this "week." Monday you may wish to pursue measures for breaking your dry spell. Maybe get the STI test, post it (personal info redacted) on your dating profile and demand to see the same from anyone who messages you. Mr. SM FWB is coming in for business every week. Progress towards a normal life lifted my spirits immensely, though I never "cheated" before we reset. I like the quotes on cheated! 💜 They broke their vows, not us. And her therapist needs to wipe the shocked look off of her face. That is really unprofessional. She can have any therapist she wants, but if you can get one they really need to be online and polyamorous friendly? They should know the book "More Than Two"and if they don't maybe they should get a copy or be gifted one? Please remember that polyamory.com Has a lot quality mentors. Polyamory therapists are available on Zoom or SkypeI would have kept my lips zipped to FWB, though. If H is blowing smoke, you'll need to admit you were snookered. Then again, maybe monthly would be insufficient and you'd need FWB to supplement H. Maybe H would stop trying if monthly wasn't enough. Monthly is REALLY close to the agreed upon definition of sexless. It's tough to say you're out of line needing more than 20% above a sexless marriage. I called this "handing the candy out with an eyedropper" when it was 5 per year. 12 would still fit. Mr. SM FWB is open about his sex with the wifey, but neither of us believe it is our spouses right to question us about our sex elsewhere and l have informed H that if he asks about sex, I will be lying about my sex with Mr friend with benefits. I also told him not to bother asking where I go because I will be automatically lying by default. My husband automatically gave up his right to know about my sex life when he stopped having sex with me. My sex life is very private unless I am supported and encouraged to do so with a smile like some are on the polyamory forum. This came because I was in a hotel room with sister friend with benefits When my husband called and he was not very happy with me and act it out after the event. It was very painful to see my husband so saddened, but I could not go the rest of my life without sex! I wish I could, and I tried for over a decade, it's not that I can't it's that I won't.
My prospective FWB, Kathy, wished me well with my wife, but I do not know if she's still available. I may ask for her company soon. My wife has been surly as hell of late. I think it's her job. Budget cuts have made it tougher, the long hours are getting to her and she's angry when I point out the luxuries she buys with the money will be impossible if she quits. Mad at me because numbers don't care if you like your job or not. I was counseled on this issue and he told me to not let anyone ever control sex in your life again. I was rightfully concerned about being left behind, feeling even more rejected. He asked how my marriage was and if we participated in activities together and asked what we did and how we spent our time together. After listening to my story he told me to gently inform my husband that I would be having sex outside the marriage until the sex was ... He had me pick how much sex I wanted with the idea of compromise. I picked once a week because Society, if we can call them normal, had it every 10 days on average. I sat with him calmly and explained the arrangement. He was very understanding that I could no longer hope for sex only to be met with emptiness. There was no blaming whatsoever, and I told him it was okay to be sexless for himself and it's not like he wanted sex anyway, which is what my friend with benefits gently told his wife. My husband then asked if I felt obligated towards the FWB. I said it may be a lost opportunity if he finds someone else and he was one of the few who was willing to be STI tested and let me see the paperwork. It's extremely hard to gently give no one a choice although, they absolutely do have a choice in the matter. It's hard to say that you won't be controlled anymore, lovingly, when you feel like pinching their ear or shaking sense into them! Hahaha. All hell broke loose when he called me at the hotel! The therapist said he would beat his chest and stomp his feet and she was right. Once I was getting sex again it was so much easier to be gentle and nice to my husband and I've made a point to do so ever since. I went the polyamory way and asked if he wanted to participate with some rulemaking within reason. He declined and the polyamory community was best suited for going over the rules which put my husband at the top of the hierarchy of love, but I could get my needs met outside the marriage. I had to teach him everything little by little while I was learning from "the counselors guide to an open marriage" and "more than two". It would shake his soul to learn that I was with the same man for close a to decade with a break in service because he went to another city instead to meet with other clients and possibly another woman which I encouraged.
I am so very sorry about your family tragedy😥 my husband will distance himself and I always want to be closer and hug even if we're just hanging out on the couch. He touches me only when I reach out for touch. His family is not the huggy type, but he loves touchWe can live a very good life on my salary alone. But she'll need to stop shopping and cook two or three times a week and compared with the high life she has now. I can see why it looks like a wall of flame impossible to pass through. I was invited to my wife's personal therapy session with an eye towards getting some feedback towards what problem she faced and those we shared (a family tragedy I won't inject a buzzkill into the thread for). My W with a half teasing tone brought up my dating. The therapist was shocked I admitted it and planned to continue. She conveyed her shared belief with my wife that marriage should be monogamous and asked how I thought of "opening my marriage". I expressed some shock of my own that she'd not yet encountered one and may be ill equipped to handle things if it shocked her so. I wasn't invited to the second session, but W asked if I planned to keep dating maybe a month later and I told her "January". (because my younger daughter went back to school then). A week or so later, the reset began. I think the therapist got the full story and got a clear-eyed understanding why opening our marriage was an entirely sensible action on my part. She may have advocated for my POV and the reset was the result. (again. Me speculating.) If a counselor or therapist has been around sexless clients they tend to be on our side and I have learned if they have not been around sexless clients and seen their pain, they push an agenda of not opening the marriage at all. One therapist told me it gets very messy, either way it gets messy I really felt like I was in a lose-lose situation and it really didn't matter to me which way it got quote-unquote messy!
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Aug 19, 2020 14:05:05 GMT -5
He flat out rolled his eyes at the mere suggestion and picked up a book and started reading vocally to drown me out. I got silent and just watched his eyes. Amazing how such an intellectual man can be so childish. I said as I was leaving the room, what about covid? Can't you just give me intimacy until covid is over? He put down the book and turned out the light. I had these fantasies that I would water-fast and just not cook and just go silent when he wanted his meals. I'm going to hurt either way, better to not be silent and act like all is well. Dr John Gottman's research indicates that rolling eyes is the purest indicator of contempt -and a near 100% indicator of an imminent divorce. It's unrecoverable. The only time I do not buy that scenario is when the couple engages lovingly and adore each other, most of the time. I should have been divorced a long time ago. I followed Michelle Wieners divorce busting strategies book and, I am guessing that if he decides to divorce, I will be just fine, in time, a very long time and that's okay. I didn't threaten him with divorce ever, I didn't want him to have that insecurity. He wanted to divorce so I could get my sexual needs met, we came up with a different solution and I got sex outside the marriage while still being loving inside the marriage.
They say, "it is only sex!" Yes, I really used that line! All of those asinine things that they say to us can be used against them in a gentle, loving way when we decide to get sex for ourselves. Sex outside the R only works for about 15% of the population and that's okay, too. 50% of people get divorced and that's not a very good statistic! I was encouraged to work on the marriage after my relationship with my husband was evaluated. I learned to be very good to the people I am around because they, after a good period of time, will be good to me. It didn't happen overnight! It seemed forced at first 😆It's also likely the real reason - not aesexuality - that you are not having sex. People avoid sex with those whom they hold in contempt, or if they don't feel comfortable with the obligations that might be attached to the sex (ie. to be fully present and intentional in a relationship). You can easily see this if you rewind to prior to marriage and think of any single person you held in enough contempt to roll your eyes at in an interaction, and try to imagine yourself wanting that person enough to kiss him. True that! It used to be very Rocky, and l don't mean maybe! Haha I can see why alcoholics don't get sex.Like @mirrorchid , I have also had a period of an open relationship - in several formats across several years, and also went for years trying logical arguments touting the benefits of a sexual life to my wife, as if she was unaware or had forgotten what they were. Sex/w intimacy will not hold much weight to our refusers, yes, you are right on point! Many people ruined themselves with masturbation especially prone masturbation which accounts for 13% of the population male and female s do it. It was interesting to learn that females do it with pillows! When I was very young we used to ask my dad to go with us places even though we knew he would not be going with us. I checked in every once in awhile to make sure we were still on the same page and he was relieved that I was getting sex elsewhere, which gave me the green light. Phase 1 was "don't ask don't tell". Fully permissioned, I got as far as a walk with a beautiful older woman with a ravenous appetite for younger men, and a sexy makeout upon saying good night. It seemed quite onerous to me to keep such a significant development in my life a secret, and to a degree - tactically difficult. Eventually, my wife saw a text come in and she immediately began pulling that thread, with her anxiety and anger rising the more evasive I became. It became clear that the "Don't ask" part of the equation was going to be abandoned at the first hurdle. I told her everything. She treated me with contempt for two days, and then reset to cold indifference - while also acknowledging that she had indeed "given permission". This was the first indication to me of what I would later see as her total unsuitability for this and related non-monogamous arrangements. This is a viewpoint that is unpopular around refusers, but they broke their vows first and getting sex outside doesn't need permission even though they think they have every right to control us in every detail of our life. Society believes it is their right not to have sex and to control if we have sex and anything else is infidelity! WHAT?!?!?!? THEY DON'T WANT TO BE TOLD THAT WE ALSO HAVE RIGHTS WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT HAPPENS 2 OUR BODY! Even Michele Weiner Davis won't take up for our rights!
a therapist can convince them that others do have ,and can have different arrangements or they will have to read that in a book because we are so full of s***! And it certainly didn't happen overnight for me. 💜 my husband knows that when I say I am going for coffee and a book read. It is a lie and I tell him that I am going to lie to him for my privacy. <<This was so important! He tells me oh, you were gone for a long time and I answer, yes, I was. I walk out the door with my shag bag of toys, put them in the car and then I come out later. we have agreed to hide it, best l can. I do bring him home something special like his favorite chocolate ice cream or a piece of pie, that's his love language.Specifically, her coping tactic for resentment and contempt was to disconnect further, whereas mine was to lean in. I found it put all of the work and shame of hiding things on me - essentially making a distinction without a difference between a don't ask don't tell and an affair. My husband tried to call it an affair. My answer was you know exactly what I'm doing you just don't know when and I have the right to sex just like you have the right not to have sex. <Insert good tone and a tight hug>
I also found that despite the discussions and permissions granted, it amounted to kicking the can further down the road. Infidelity/non-monogamy is like jumping off a cliff into the sea. Are there rocks just under the waves? There is no way to reasonably know how a person will react, even if they ostensibly support it. Where sex is involved, there is a definite before and after, and in the after, you can find yourself in a different place, staring across a chasm. Not that that's the wrong place - it's likely a more honest appraisal of the situation, but it's also emotionally volatile and desperate - like burning the bridge behind you as you charge into a conflict head on. If it goes badly, and almost all of that depends on your partner's reaction to it - to you - you might as well have had an affair. That's how your partner will treat you. And also, I'd suggest that it is deep down, like likely the actual intent of your partner (who already holds you in contempt). The reaction can't be expected to go well at first. It took me several years for him just to accept what I was doing. Kubblers five stages of grieving reminds me of this and they definitely go through each of the stages sometimes hopping back and forth in one conversation. It is so unfortunate that Society thinks they can control their own body and treat others as property and it's up to us to teach them or unteach all of the stinking thinking that comes along with it. I don't know how many times I have had to put it in the proper perspective.I use the very same thing he told me to get out of sex or intimacy. If it is not done in a very gentle fashion it's game overA lot of extra work into it at first, but wouldn't I have to do that with the new relationship? Within a new relationship,we put an exorbitant amount of time into it at first and then it progresses? I have an advantage over a new relationship I have already focused on building Trust and my husband understands who is number one and FWB,s wife understands that she is at the top of the hierarchy. Rightfully so. 💜 If I learned one thing it is that there is no right or wrong way and I really think polyamorous relationships do it in a very loving way that can be taught to others Edited to add, I don't even mention the word polyamory to my husband because he did not want to read any of the books. So, it is spoon fed to him in a less invasive way. It may not work in the long run and that's okay because I will be better suited for another relationship. New relationship energy will fade if I leave him and I take the chance of not getting a quality mate?
|
|
|
Post by DryCreek on Aug 19, 2020 16:57:27 GMT -5
Whoa. Do I understand you correctly? Unfortunately, yes. I have a working theory that W has no concept of intimacy and good sex, and therefore can’t relate to the emotional value and physical pleasure it brings. (She truly doesn’t get anything out of the experience, and I’ve got to say that I know I couldn’t be *that* terrible. We’ve never had a good sex life; I wrongly assumed it would develop.) But when your spouse is literally telling you they feel emotionally starved and terribly lonely in the relationship... most sensible people would not ignore the alarm bells and hope the fire will put itself out. It’s been a journey of trying different things to help her appreciate both how valuable intimacy is to me, and also try to find something she enjoys (without her input), but it’s been a dead end on both fronts. After 30 years of trying, I get the hint.
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Aug 19, 2020 18:38:14 GMT -5
DryCreek, DH, told me he was lonely when I said something similar. When I went fishing for how I could help, crickets... It took me awhile then I had him test for his love language in 'the five languages of love' book. We did it together and it was fun. I love it when they think we should just break out a crystal ball!
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Aug 19, 2020 20:01:27 GMT -5
Dr John Gottman's research indicates that rolling eyes is the purest indicator of contempt -and a near 100% indicator of an imminent divorce. It's unrecoverable. The only time I do not buy that scenario is when the couple engages lovingly and adore each other, most of the time. I'm not sure what the "scenario" is you don't agree with. The research was fairly definitive - and not just in cases of divorce. Eye rolling indicates contempt. There's a very strong correlation between contempt (or eye rolling as the indicator) within celibate relationships. And a near 100% certainty of divorce within 5 years. Taking cortisol readings of couples living in this situation, it's apparent they exist in a perpetual state of crisis or terror when dealing with their spouse. You can manage positive interactions with people who you don't like but feel you have to. Consider an abusive work situation with a tyrant boss who everyone is afraid of, going out to a team lunch or party - where everyone tries to put on a happy face and tell jokes. It's exhausting though, especially if you are attuned to the giant lie - which is that everyone on the team is enjoying their host. Having been there, I have a pretty good understanding that a statement like this likely doesn't seem incongruent with your statement that you engage lovingly and adore each other. I'm not sure who the "they" and the "us" are, with regard to your marriage. You are talking about a discussion you had with your husband. I doubt he is on a team, and neither really are you. It isn't "just sex" - as if that's unimportant. It's important to BOTH of you. If it wasn't important, you wouldn't risk your marriage to have it in your life. If it wasn't important, he'd say "yes" to you rather than risk his marriage and overriding his own natural libido to avoid it with you. And, to avoid even talking about with you -because it's such a dangerous topic. It's important all right. Did he say, "I am relieved you are getting sex elsewhere?" It sounds like a very surprising thing to say. Partly because his pattern seems so contemptuous of you and avoidant of the topic. Partly because I thought he put up resistance to the idea. Partly because if he was genuinely into this - he might have asked a lot of details about it and wished to be included on some aspect of it. Not sure who the "they" are again. I agree with you in principle about a person's decision to withdraw from a sexual relationship as being incompatible with a married life. I don't agree that it's useful to focus on this frame as if some outside arbiter will eventually pronounce you to be in the moral right in the decision to seek sex outside. In most jurisdictions (at least in Western countries) no outside arbiter or objective righteousness will protect you from any consequences. Your husband will feel how he feels and he will do what he will do. If he has an affair or serves you with a divorce, there is no authority to appeal to say "that's not fair". Whether you have a divorce, or whether you live in a relationship with someone who holds you in contempt or who doesn't view you as a sexual partner - it's really not going to matter who is right.
|
|
|
Post by baza on Aug 19, 2020 20:43:10 GMT -5
The sooner one can abandon judgement in these ILIASM situations, the better.
You being "in the right" is not going to help resolve your ILIASM situation. For that matter, your spouse being "in the wrong" is equally unhelpful in resolving your ILIASM situation.
In an ILIASM situation, it doesn't matter a rats arse who is right or who is wrong.
Most likely, BOTH spouses have made their own contributions to driving the marriage into ILIASM status.
Channeling your energy in to "who's right/wrong" is wasting your resources.
The real question is NOT "who's right/wrong"
The real question is whether you are going to stay in the ILIASM situation or not.
And there's no "right" or "wrong" answer to that question either. Staying in your ILIASM situation is a perfectly valid choice. Leaving your ILIASM situation is every bit as valid a choice.
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Aug 20, 2020 1:46:37 GMT -5
The only time I do not buy that scenario is when the couple engages lovingly and adore each other, most of the time. I'm not sure what the "scenario" is you don't agree with. The research was fairly definitive - and not just in cases of divorce. Eye rolling indicates contempt. There's a very strong correlation between contempt (or eye rolling as the indicator) within celibate relationships. And a near 100% certainty of divorce within 5 years. Taking cortisol readings of couples living in this situation, it's apparent they exist in a perpetual state of crisis or terror when dealing with their spouse. You can manage positive interactions with people who you don't like but feel you have to. Consider an abusive work situation with a tyrant boss who everyone is afraid of, going out to a team lunch or party - where everyone tries to put on a happy face and tell jokes. It's exhausting though, especially if you are attuned to the giant lie - which is that everyone on the team is enjoying their host. Having been there, I have a pretty good understanding that a statement like this likely doesn't seem incongruent with your statement that you engage lovingly and adore each other. I'm not sure who the "they" and the "us" are, with regard to your marriage. You are talking about a discussion you had with your husband. I doubt he is on a team, and neither really are you. It isn't "just sex" - as if that's unimportant. It's important to BOTH of you. If it wasn't important, you wouldn't risk your marriage to have it in your life. If it wasn't important, he'd say "yes" to you rather than risk his marriage and overriding his own natural libido to avoid it with you. And, to avoid even talking about with you -because it's such a dangerous topic. It's important all right. Did he say, "I am relieved you are getting sex elsewhere?" It sounds like a very surprising thing to say. Partly because his pattern seems so contemptuous of you and avoidant of the topic. Partly because I thought he put up resistance to the idea. Partly because if he was genuinely into this - he might have asked a lot of details about it and wished to be included on some aspect of it. Not sure who the "they" are again. I agree with you in principle about a person's decision to withdraw from a sexual relationship as being incompatible with a married life. I don't agree that it's useful to focus on this frame as if some outside arbiter will eventually pronounce you to be in the moral right in the decision to seek sex outside. In most jurisdictions (at least in Western countries) no outside arbiter or objective righteousness will protect you from any consequences. Your husband will feel how he feels and he will do what he will do. If he has an affair or serves you with a divorce, there is no authority to appeal to say "that's not fair". Whether you have a divorce, or whether you live in a relationship with someone who holds you in contempt or who doesn't view you as a sexual partner - it's really not going to matter who is right. Your two first quotes of mine were not stand alone sentences. They belonged together and I will clarify it for you based on your first statement where rolling of the eyes or a 100% indicator of a divorce coming in the next 5 years. It's been almost two decades of contempt. So based on that alone, I should have been divorced 15 years ago by the authors study and I believe he's a great author. I am the one who chose not to get a divorce with the help of a sexual therapist. Clinical social worker with alphabet soup by her name. Also went to sexual therapy group with two different psychologists and a therapist. I went to my husband's sex therapist a couple of times as well. One thing my husband was working on was compromise. It worked for a little while and then when he stopped going he stopped compromising little by little. It's important to note that our relationship was evaluated by several therapists. They want to know how you interact with each other and what you do together and if you support each other in each other's interests even if you don't like them yourself. I would like to see the studies and see what criteria they used. That is really bizarre that it is 100% divorce rate for rolling of the eyes. Most things are not black and white. I may be wrong, but I just don't believe that that's cause and effect. I believe that if you have a bunch of different areas where you are compatible and you are sharing different stories of how you do support each other or brag about your partner in different areas I'm guessing that that could overshadow eye rolling because your spouse wanted you to check out a sexless marriage site with "Deadbeds"? Now, if it was a complete tug of war in therapists office,I might agree that they would be divorced, especially, if they didn't look at each other and smile when the other had a story going. Another big red flag for me would be if the couple sat apart from each other and kind of turned their backs on each other because body language and tone is everything. We laugh we play, and spend our spare time together. Is it perfect? No, and it shouldn't be perfect. I'm guessing that some of us can think of times when our spouse is devoted to us or expresses love. I also said that if my husband leaves me- I will handle it, I may not like it, and I may have a very hard time, but in time, even if it's a very long time- I will be okay. I'm just not going to petrify myself with fear, if it comes there's not a lot I can do about it. I also explained why I am not leaving him in the previous thread. I'm just pointing out that we also have rights. And the refuser decided to break their vows, for whatever reason, where we don't get sex and we are still expected to be monogamous. And they want to call it cheating, but we the sexless, never cheated them out of any information. It is only a reaction or consequence of their inaction. The refuser thinks that we need their permission to step out of the marriage for sex. I don't because as soon as l ask for permission of course he will say nooo. It doesn't matter who is right. We can both be right. Not really fruitful to play the blame game and I said that from the very beginning of my post. He said that he is glad he didn't have to participate in sex any longer. He felt relieved that we found a solution. My friend with benefits is simply referred to as, "your friend". You have to understand that this is not the way he felt for the first two years and I've been doing this for almost a decade with the same man. He doesn't even know that I have been with the same man for so long. Like I said, it was hell for several yearss his acceptance gradually got better. ETA...I said, anything that they used against us, to not give into sex, can be used against them. Of course sex is important to us. when the refuser doesn't want us to leave to go have sex. We can minimize the importance of sex to the refuser. The refusers says, I don't want you to have sex with someone else. I say, "it's only sex" The refuser says, "all you want is sex".... Later, when it's to my advantage, I gently say "all I want is sex" when he no longer wants me to go see FWB. "I am not giving away anything that you want"you know that you are my number one! "Lovey,I don't stimulate you, so I am guessing that I don't stimulate him either" I just want sex, I love you, babe. "It's hard to have sex with you because it's unwanted"as much as I would like sex, I don't want to push you into it. "I can understand that you would not want to have sex when you are experiencing a headache" It doesn't really matter what his excuses were, I can possibly use it later. Then when I ask for sex when I check in, he told me I thought we had this settled.
|
|