|
|
Post by DryCreek on Aug 9, 2020 2:57:50 GMT -5
isthisit, 25 years ago I knew a woman from Brighton who shared her idea of a perfect marriage... her husband would live a few doors down and they’d only see each other occasionally. It struck me as silly and expensive, but maybe she was just ahead of her time. As for why guys allow the SAH scenario... yes, part of it is social upbringing and a self-expectation that being a good provider was an exceptional accomplishment, but also because the second income often nets very little extra household money - the added costs for childcare (and possibly housekeeping, dry cleaning, transportation, work clothes, etc.) often erode most of a SAHM’s potential income unless she’s motivated to serious career aspirations. So, it really can seem like you’re trading a lower overall quality of life / more stress for relatively little extra income. Then, if there’s a huge disparity in the guy’s income vs the incremental net income, the logic becomes “Why are we doing this for just 10% more at the end of the year?” And it becomes easy to justify that the added conveniences of having someone home full-time is worth that 10% difference. But... that math only works for a time, after which resuming serious pursuit of a career is very practical. If one is motivated. And if a lifestyle hasn’t become entrenched to the point that neither party recognizes it’s time for a change. It easily becomes an entitlement and a way of life that one party doesn’t aspire to change and the other can’t motivate them to. The motivations and logic may be good at the start, but over time the landscape changes and things become very imbalanced.
|
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Aug 9, 2020 9:14:00 GMT -5
As described in the other posts I have no intention of co-mingling my finances again. I will also be maintaining my own home no matter what. After my miserable excuse of a M I need to know that I have a safe base of my own. The idea of being very together but living together on a part time basis is very attractive. Stay a few nights per week, visit places together and holidays, sure. Emotionally secure, engaged and committed. But, clear off for a bit and give me my space! “Lovely idea but I have seen you loved up, you would have given him a kidney in a heartbeat”. This is true. If I am lucky enough to love again my heart is likely to take the lead and he gets all of me. Every £GBP, moment of time and be my priority in all things. I’m not sure I can override it when loved up These are the dilemmas about new relationships in middle age which just did not exist first time around when I had little materially but much time to come. Interlocking finances is something that My woman and I stay away from. With that said.... it still manages to happen. Whose car gets driven everywhere? Gas money? Groceries? Taxes and utilities? I continue to pay off my debts, without consulting my woman . ( money that could be spent on a vacation, together) The day we decide to travel to other states together, then finances will get discussed. One thing this article did not mention is menopause. Some women use that as their crutch to 'never want sex'. Meanwhile some of them turned off that switch decades ago! I read a different article about divorced women who love to go camping together! The woman who wrote the article was in her 40's. The youngest of the group. The other women were mostly in their 60's and would all 'do their own thing when camping, but every night was campfire time! Then would come the "share your stories time". Sounds great! Doesn't it? Only it ended up being "who needs a man ?" time. Being loved up- is GREAT! ESPECIALLY when the giving and receiving is honest, equal, easy, and very satisfying. A time when men and women DO need each other! A wonderful ego/moral boost! Having kids can make 2 seperate households manageable. Especially when starting over from a SM, and F I N A L L Y having sex and intimacy again! After my divorce my kids where with me one week on, one week off. The week of having the house to ourselves was a perfect time to be together. While staying in touch the other week. All new ground in these changing times. Another topic, is what to do as we age. Retirement plans. How to handle sickness. I have a male neighbor, 85 yrs. old. Widowed twice, and me and my fellow neighbors check up on him quite regularly. Like a woman who has her social network, men need more of that too. About a year ago I spoke with one of my other widow neighbors about dating. She is in her 70's a "snowbird- lives in N.Y. half the year, then at her house in FL. the other half". She told me " I want to date a younger man, someone who will do work around the house for me, move things, fix things, and we can be ' friends'." I pressed her on the meaning of "friends". As expected she quit on the sex part decades ago. You could tell in the way she lists her priorities, what she wants from having a man around. |
|
|
|
Post by sadkat on Aug 9, 2020 10:41:13 GMT -5
This has become quite an interesting thread. I hope the discussion continues. I’ve been lucky enough to have people in my life who were great role models, who taught me the importance of taking care of myself. I learned early on that it was my responsibility to contribute to the running of the household (whether it be as a provider and caretaker or a money earner). It never occurred to me to be anything other than a working mom.
I agree that childcare expenses, especially the first 5 years of a child’s life, are quite high. At some income levels, it makes sense that the lower earning parent stay home to take care of the kids. But that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t stay relevant; that their focus shouldn’t be to get back into the workforce when childcare expenses are not so steep. My belief is that many women become complacent; they begin to enjoy the freedom and solitude when the kids go off to school. They have no interest in the hard work of pursuing employment. This is reinforced and compounded by men with traditional mindsets who are validated by the ability to care for their families. I’ve known SAHMs and I’ve known working moms. A lot of my SAHM friends sought employment when their kids entered middle or high school. They worked hourly jobs and invariably worked their way up to more demanding positions. I’ve known other moms with full time careers (like me) who became very skilled at managing the household and succeeded on the job. To be fair, these moms relied on their partners quite a bit for help. I’ll never forget a comment from one of my good friends- a working mom- who told me her kids (she had 3) were much better off with her working. It just goes to show that there are all sorts of women out there. There is nothing wrong with being a SAHM or a SAHD. What is wrong is when they fall into a sense of entitlement where they no longer feel responsible for contributing to the health and well being of the family. Let’s face it, if a SAHM was willingly and enthusiastically taking care of her household responsibilities while falling into her husband’s arms at the end of a long hard day (for both of them), we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
For me, the bottom line is - some women (and men) decided they no longer needed to contribute to the health and well being of the family ( which includes love and intimacy). As such, all of us here are faced with a decision. Do we stay and continue enjoying our financial successes while ignoring our basic need for intimacy? Or do we destroy everything we’ve built and start over in hopes of ( but no guarantee) finding intimacy again? It’s a tough decision - one that you each will make based on your current circumstances and how you want to look back on your life when you are on your deathbed. At least, that’s the way I looked at it when I made my decision. One I don’t regret.
|
|
|
|
Post by Handy on Aug 9, 2020 10:52:26 GMT -5
greatcoastal
someone who will do work around the house for me, move things, fix things, and we can be "'friends'." AH, the friend zone. I can relate. OTH more friends are OK too. If you want more you have to do more looking. Of the retired folks I know men do more things alone (singular activities) or with an occasional friend. Most women I know do more things that trnd to be group activities. Maybe having a H die on a W is traumatic and a big loss to a woman so the woman just wants a friend from then on. I know there are women that want a live with relationship. Finding that situation and compatibility is one of the things that takes (extra) work.
Above, Baza said YOU and YOUR quite often. He is correct. I could start the divorce process today.
And about splitting the asserts, don't forget the lawyers and legal fees. They get their portion.
|
|
|
|
Post by saarinista on Aug 9, 2020 11:43:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Handy on Aug 9, 2020 12:49:18 GMT -5
Great post Sadkat.
What I have experienced is some women replace their kids when the kids get older with cats, dogs or other animals. My W had 13 pets before she quit working, and then she retired early.
|
|
|
|
Post by DryCreek on Aug 9, 2020 14:46:19 GMT -5
sadkat, good post, thanks. Bit of a random add-on here, but I think perspectives / expectations / responsibilities / attitudes become a challenge, often thanks to communication problems. I may tread into hot water here, but if you elect to take the role of running the household, it’s a job - treat it like one. Do it well, and don’t complain that you’re the one doing it. The earning spouse’s paycheck doesn’t appear magically, so give them some credit when the bill is paid for the plumber, handyman, landscaper, car repair, or that great restaurant - they didn’t turn the wrench or cook the meal, but their contribution still made it happen. (Clearly, the dynamic should be very different in a household where both spouses work and household chores *should* be a shared responsibility. Which, perhaps, is part of the problem - people applying standards from one situation to another where the facts are different.)
|
|
|
|
Post by isthisit on Aug 9, 2020 17:23:00 GMT -5
isthisit , 25 years ago I knew a woman from Brighton who shared her idea of a perfect marriage... her husband would live a few doors down and they’d only see each other occasionally. It struck me as silly and expensive, but maybe she was just ahead of her time. As for why guys allow the SAH scenario... yes, part of it is social upbringing and a self-expectation that being a good provider was an exceptional accomplishment, but also because the second income often nets very little extra household money - the added costs for childcare (and possibly housekeeping, dry cleaning, transportation, work clothes, etc.) often erode most of a SAHM’s potential income unless she’s motivated to serious career aspirations. So, it really can seem like you’re trading a lower overall quality of life / more stress for relatively little extra income. Then, if there’s a huge disparity in the guy’s income vs the incremental net income, the logic becomes “Why are we doing this for just 10% more at the end of the year?” And it becomes easy to justify that the added conveniences of having someone home full-time is worth that 10% difference. But... that math only works for a time, after which resuming serious pursuit of a career is very practical. If one is motivated. And if a lifestyle hasn’t become entrenched to the point that neither party recognizes it’s time for a change. It easily becomes an entitlement and a way of life that one party doesn’t aspire to change and the other can’t motivate them to. The motivations and logic may be good at the start, but over time the landscape changes and things become very imbalanced. I had decided to bow out of this thread but I cannot resist a reply here, and I am afraid I am going to be unfashionable again. Why? Because I feel very deeply that far too many social constructions of gender based roles go unquestioned and unchallenged. DryCreek you make a logical point on the face of it about one spouses income not making working worthwhile. But for me there is more to it than logic. Working gives more than a wage. It offers an opportunity to contribute to society and not simply take from it. Working also offers a sense of self, self respect and a dignity in contributing to the support of your family. When my children were small I also remember some much needed respite of being myself and not just mum/wife too. These aspects are as important as money. Also, it is very short sighted to look at the maths for those short years too, maintaining a career has many long term financial benefits. Many women use the short term view to justify doing nothing and then just forget to stop. The simple truth is that no able bodied and competent adult should ever feel entitled to be financially supported by another indefinitely and it is the sense of entitlement and the acceptance of it that is problematic for me here. I know and like many women who choose not to work, and men who are very happy to support their wives to do nothing at all. What business is this of mine? None at all and I usually care little to nothing for other people’s choices in life. However, here it feels a little different. Why? Because the SM context makes a difference. Some spouses described here so frequently do nothing but take with no willingness whatsoever to give anything in return. It is the sense of entitlement to be kept, often in considerable style I may add, whilst acting so contemptuously towards the happiness of their spouse that makes me furious. These women know full well what will make their H happy, yet manipulate, control and downright lie to ensure they take what they want and give nothing of value. They are callous, selfish, emotionally neglectful and often narcissistic too. Yet the right of these women to behave this way because they bore the children they wanted is widely accepted or at best rarely challenged here as it is viewed as ‘normal’. This is not in any way normal, and in my view at least should not be accepted as readily as it seems to be. To be clear, I have no wish to offend anyone for their life choices and and judge no-one for them. But I do think established values of normalcy like all societally defined values deserve scrutiny. In our context it’s hard to reconcile acceptance of contemptuous entitlement whist offering emotional poverty. |
|
|
|
Post by isthisit on Aug 9, 2020 17:34:06 GMT -5
I may tread into hot water here, but if you elect to take the role of running the household, it’s a job - treat it like one. Do it well, and don’t complain that you’re the one doing it. The earning spouse’s paycheck doesn’t appear magically, so give them some credit when the bill is paid for the plumber, handyman, landscaper, car repair, or that great restaurant - they didn’t turn the wrench or cook the meal, but their contribution still made it happen. I could not agree with this more. My H was limited in any number of ways as a spouse but what he was and remains is exceptionally hard working. Not just for financial gain either. He has an very specialised occupation which has high value to society. He worked stupid hours to get the job done and done well. I once picked him up from work because he was so tired I was worried about him driving home. It was summer and the car windows were open. He flopped into the passenger seat and I thanked him for working so hard for our family. I reminded him that I appreciated what he did and the lifestyle benefits we all enjoyed as a result. I was unaware that several of his colleagues overheard this. The next day he was quizzed about my comments. H shrugs, tells them that I say stuff like that all the time, it’s nice, what’s the significance? Not one of these men had ever had such appreciation shown to them ever. Not one. Just disgraceful. |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Aug 9, 2020 19:53:26 GMT -5
I hope this remains 'relevant' to the topic at hand.
I do remember the old adage " I want a man who is strong,makes decisions, and knows what he wants, but he better do what I tell him to do!"
(Same goes for men who expect a woman to do whatever I tell her to do)
I do believe that our years of a one sided family court system have left a new 'tribe' of retired women who "don't need a man, and are providing for themselves" .These people have totally ignored the fact that they receive alimony for life,where given the house, the cars, full access to the kids etc.. and treated sex/intimacy in a marriage as not needed. So now it's much easier to live alone and 'socialize' with other women of the same mind set.
Personally I reflect on my own ex and her older sister. Both divorced, both narcissistic (not a word I just throw around) both forcing Sexless marriages/celibacy into years of married with children. And now ,not wanting, needing a man, but being against men and in love with money and convincing their grown children " Mom needs us!"
|
|
|
|
Post by DryCreek on Aug 9, 2020 20:23:13 GMT -5
isthisit, I agree. As a first-hand offender, I can say that it made sense given my frame of reference and the situation, and nobody was there to caution me against the long-term effects without a plan. I can only hope that with societal changes, fewer people will have that frame of reference - I’m surely cautioning my sons about being conscious of the long-term effects. It’s unfortunate there’s no real recourse short of divorce if a spouse chooses to stop working - regardless of the reason. There are plenty of freeloading guys out there too, and even if they aren’t looking at perpetual alimony they’re still a drain on the household.
|
|
|
|
Post by saarinista on Aug 9, 2020 20:43:51 GMT -5
Though DryCreek et al divorce might NOT be so unfortunate if it were fairer, easier and not viewed as such a big deal by judgemental types, perhaps. Or maybe open marriages are the answer. But those create problems, too in terms of time and money allocation. Sigh. The real ticket is to marry a right person. If only we had! 🤦♀️ |
|
|
|
Post by worksforme2 on Aug 9, 2020 21:13:00 GMT -5
Though DryCreek et al divorce might NOT be so unfortunate if it were fairer, easier and not viewed as such a big deal by judgemental types, perhaps. How about this....Marriage to consist of a limited duration and then it expires. To continue the marriage it must be renewed periodically, just like a drivers license. Lets say 5 yrs and it expires. Any legal agreements entered into must be resolved also at that time. If the parties cannot resolve the issues in an amiable manor the courts would do it for them, but the marriage is ended. No divorce required. Just a certificate stating the marriage has been dissolved as a result of the expiration time limit. |
|
|
|
Post by DryCreek on Aug 9, 2020 21:33:24 GMT -5
worksforme2, on the surface there are a lot of things that I like about that concept. It forces both sides to make a conscious effort to keep earning the relationship instead of mistreating it like an entitlement. It wouldn’t suck if it also came with some social reforms around alimony.
|
|
|
|
Post by Handy on Aug 9, 2020 21:47:26 GMT -5
In my case, when my W did work part time, she said no sex the day before she worked, no sex the day she worked and no sex the day after she worked. That didn't leave many potential sex days. This almost meant with her working sex was off the table so maybe having her not working, retiring early, maybe there would be more sex. It was a long shot but that flopped too.
Thanks for posting your opinions Sadkat and Isthisit. I wish I heard your posts 30+ years ago. There is history related to the 30+ years ago and some back injuries I had. I wasn't working during my recuperation and thought I was a burden to my W and that she might leave me for a man that was working (no evidence, just my fear) because my thinking at the time was "women want a man and the more he earns, the more she wants him." No income was = to not being wanted in my mind at the time.
|
|
