gezza
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by gezza on Jul 27, 2020 6:50:57 GMT -5
A mate of mine confessed the his marriage had nearly ended due to wife’s lack of interest in sex. He basically told her that although he loved her unless things improved he would be outsourcing the sex part of their marriage. She was naturally horrified but things improved dramatically.
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Post by michael on Jul 27, 2020 7:02:39 GMT -5
I wonder if that would have worked for me. My problem is I would have fallen in love with the one who I was having sex with. I can’t help it.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jul 27, 2020 7:41:08 GMT -5
A mate of mine confessed the his marriage had nearly ended due to wife’s lack of interest in sex. He basically told her that although he loved her unless things improved he would be outsourcing the sex part of their marriage. She was naturally horrified but things improved dramatically. At this point the question becomes, "was the change short term or has it been sustained over the long haul"? By that I mean for more than just a couple months. My own experience was that my X did a temp turn around for roughly 3 months, then went back to being a refuser when she thought it had blown over. Others have experienced the same behavior. A short term renewal of intimacy followed by a return to business as usual. If the improvement has not been in place for at least 6 months it is probably too soon to say it's a real turn around.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 27, 2020 8:07:43 GMT -5
I wonder if that would have worked for me. My problem is I would have fallen in love with the one who I was having sex with. I can’t help it. Polyamory expects you to. Just as sex need not be with just one lover, love not be restricted to one person either. Assuming you have a mate up for sharing you. (a less common outlook by a spouse, but we've seen a few who saw the necessity.) If sexual love is addressed, loving a platonic spouse may be easier. Man polyamory we sites and podcasts give advice of the pitfalls of a second lover (or, in our case, new first lover). A key problem being jealousy in the face of New Relationship Energy (NRE), mistaking infatuation for love. If you divorced, you'd still passionately love another and the heat would easily eclipse the warm embers of your current relationship. This is normal and good, but needs to be recognized for the silly animal neurotransmitter and hormone storm that it is. If the roles were reversed, with your wife being the new love and your second lover being your wife of many many years, it could easily be your wife that inflamed you like a nova. The new lover isn't special necessarily, for who they are. They are special because they are new and the circumstances you are in having lived a life in a long term relationship. If your wife were to take a second husband, she may well be swept away by ravenous lusty passion as well. It should not be a surprise and likely shouldn't become offensive. New love is FUN. Your wife wouldn't be able to help falling in love either. If you have a lover, it'd be pretty ballsy to demand she stay monogamous with you. Are you okay with that? Should you be? If you divorced, she migth do teh same thing, yet everyone says that outcome is better and there's so little data to say such a thing with confidence. That's the gist of some of the caveats shared on Podcasts like "Multiamory" (with some of my own editorializing they might disavow if you asked.) Apocrypha elsewhere speaks from actual experience and has tales to tell of dashed expectations and unexpected twists in open marriages. Of interest in this post is a similarity to my own situation. My wife told me early in our marriage that cheating was an automatic divorce. So I never asked her whether a second lover would be okay. I just told her there's be one. The stories of seen about asking have been met by the spouse with a predictable refusal. I'm not sure asking makes any sense. Just declare it'll happen. When and why. I have left the parameters for acceptable marital relations vague. Setting in stone what will keep me true invites adherence to such standards by the letter. I fear it would become transparent and engender resentment in me and telegraph from her a lack of actual caring about me. If I feel neglected in the future, I have never said I would not date. I plan to just schedule a platonic date with the full expectation that the wife will intervene again. No talking. No begging. Just recognition that she has taken me for granted yet again. It's a platonic date. What right does she have to stop it. It's dinner with a friend. I've been surprised our reset has had such staying power. (I credit her therapist who she told of my dating very early on.) Is the withholding of reassurance important to this "success"? Not sure.
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Post by jamesbonding on Jul 27, 2020 23:59:20 GMT -5
Of interest in this post is a similarity to my own situation. My wife told me early in our marriage that cheating was an automatic divorce. So I never asked her whether a second lover would be okay. I just told her there's be one. The stories of seen about asking have been met by the spouse with a predictable refusal. I'm not sure asking makes any sense. Just declare it'll happen. When and why. I agree that asking "Honey, do you mind if I outsource?" is unlikely to lead to a satisfactory outcome. What might be ok is to offer some choices: 1. Visit a sex therapist and/or doctor to figure out why sex is so unpleasant/uninteresting/seems like a chore, etc. We're looking for a long-term change in attitude, some enthusiasm, not just duty/pity/starfish sex. Offer to visit a therapist together, if the refuser wants that. 2. Acquiesce to outsourcing. 3. Divorce. That's an interesting point that I've debated a number of times in my head. Setting a minimum has the danger that we'll get just the minimum, leaving us unsatisfied and unhappy, like we should have asked for more. On the other hand, it seems to me that out partners have a right to know what it will take to make us happy. Then they can decide if they are willing to provide that, or they might try to negotiate down from that, or they might decide that it's hopeless and walk away. And maybe that would be a better approach: actually ask for what would make us happy. I'm pretty sure sex once every two days, plus a few minutes of snuggling every morning and night, and a few more hugs throughout the day, would be enough for me. (Though I wouldn't turn down more, if offered!) If you become serious about this plan, I'd advise you to plan carefully exactly what you would say, try to anticipate all her possible reactions, and plan how you would react to her reactions... I've had my plans go awry because I didn't anticipate my wife's reaction. For example, at one point about 4 years ago, sex was happening about once a month or less. She was being hostile to my requests for sex, and told me not to bother her. I was willing to divorce, but I figured it would be easier if it was "her idea" to divorce. So I played Mr. Nice Guy and didn't bother her for several months, during which time we had sex maybe two or three times. Then one day I asked for sex, she blew up, and among other things, I said, "Once a week is not enough. I don't want the next 30 years to be like the last 30 - not enough sex!" She said, "If you don't like it, you can file for divorce!" Score! I said "Ok," walked away, and planned to prepare the divorce paperwork over the next few days. Unfortunately, I wasn't prepared for what happened next. About five minutes later, she came up to me all in a panic and said, more or less (I don't remember her exact words) that she didn't mean it - she didn't want me to file for divorce. And since I was unprepared, I agreed not to file for divorce. I lost the momentum, and we are still together. If I could do it over again, I would probably say something like, "No, your idea for us to divorce is a good one. We're not compatible. I want much more sex than you want to give. Why should you continue to suffer in this unhappy marriage?" etc. It sounds like, if you start to feel neglected again, you would just start dating other women without warning your wife beforehand. I think that's a bit cruel, and if she has been doing a reasonable job of meeting your needs for six months, she deserves to have some warnings and a chance to make things right. Tell her as soon as possible, before you feel strongly motivated to outsource. Remember "I statements." "I feel like the sex frequency has been tapering off, and we're returning to the way it was before. I'd really rather stay with you, but when I feel neglected like this, it makes me start thinking about dating other women again. Can we please get the sex frequency back up?" "It's a platonic date." The problem with that statement is that you are promising to limit yourself to no sex, and admitting that it would be wrong to have sex with her. Don't limit yourself and your options! If your wife is concerned that you might have sex with another woman, let HER bring up that subject. Could be. After my affair 10 years ago, I did agree (under great duress - an offer I couldn't refuse...) not to see that woman again. I still regret agreeing to that. But I never promised not to see other women. I think both our wives know there is a limit to what we will put up with, and they both want to stay in the marriage, for whatever reasons.
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gezza
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by gezza on Jul 28, 2020 3:11:19 GMT -5
Just a quick follow up. My mate said that he had had this talk with his wife over three years ago and that it seemed to crystallise for her how serious the situation was. He said that he was quite stunned that it took a talk like this to wake his wife up to how serious the issue was. This was despite countless discussions etc.
I’m not advocating this, I just find it quite interesting that it took a talk like this to really get action. As for me I’ve had my last “talk” with my wife and she clearly knows where things are at, our youngest graduates high school this year and our eldest is getting married, after those two events I see that I’m pretty much free to pick and choose what I want do. I intend to see the world, starting with a year on the road and will certainly not be returning to the marital home. It’s quite exciting and invigorating yet at the same time it’s tinged with sadness. I’m looking forward to this next chapter and the freedom as I feel that I’ve sacrificed myself for the last 20 years.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 28, 2020 8:36:25 GMT -5
1. Visit a sex therapist and/or doctor to figure out why sex is so unpleasant/uninteresting/seems like a chore, etc. We're looking for a long-term change in attitude, some enthusiasm, not just duty/pity/starfish sex. Offer to visit a therapist together, if the refuser wants that. 2. Acquiesce to outsourcing. 3. Divorce.#1, I may work best with some kind of time limit. Some improvement needs to be seen in X weeks, months, years. Refusers may use therapy as a stalling mechanism. That's all swell, but you need to be able to call out BS after an interval of patience and that deadline allows the refused an element of hope. The endless waiting for "normal" marital life is part of the misery. Setting a minimum has the danger that we'll get just the minimum, ...partners have a right to know what it will take to make us happy.
True. But I dare say some flexibility is important. Arguably on both sides. A refuser may have some justification to want a hiatus after a traumatic life event, health issue, or inexplicable temporary mod switch. All of these would invite negotiation, but a refused partner's negotiation is typically condemned and may promote the disengagement of a partner feeling forced to do unwanted activity and build resentment. Negotiating sounds okay, but perhaps I'd want the caveat that every negotiation should be seen as temporary. Sex is an appetite like food. Yu can eat once every other day, but it's annoying and no one would see it as reasonable if a spouse insisted you do so even if they find it superior. If you've switched jobs, you may need more food because you're more physically active. You may wish to shed a pound or two and reduce your food consumption. Appetites can change, but if you've set your calorie maximum in advance, you run the risk of breaking an expectation. The temporary nature of any negotiated relationship activities should be understood in advance. If the minimum becomes the maximum there should be no concerns about unfairness in breaking some bad news to the refuser. If you become serious about this plan,...
Too late. Already serious. I'd advise you to plan carefully exactly what you would say,
Done. My contingency tree looks like a fractal. "If you don't like it, you can file for divorce!" Score! I said "Ok," walked away, and planned to prepare the divorce paperwork over the next few days. Unfortunately, I wasn't prepared for what happened next. About five minutes later, she came up to me all in a panic ...since I was unprepared, I agreed not to file for divorce... If I could do it over again, I would probably say something like, "No, your idea for us to divorce is a good one. We're not compatible. I want much more sex than you want to give. Why should you continue to suffer in this unhappy marriage?" etc.If she did nothing but declare she didn't want to divorce, it seems odd you'd need momentum. Your last expression of sympathy for lack of desire seems to be still in effect as long as she's not offering at least 3 times a month (The lowest figure I've heard described as "typical" of married couples") If every ten days is torture, you can't see abusing her like that and you'll do the kind thing and draw up the papers so you can victimize a second wife with all that kissing, cuddling, massages, foreplay and other unspeakable abuse. It sounds like, if you start to feel neglected again, you would just start dating other women without warning your wife beforehand. I think that's a bit cruel,
It's not too different from your Mr. Nice Guy surprise. Is it? She didn't know there was a bear trap inside your first request for intimacy, did she? My "trap" is a slap on the wrist in comparison. I'm not threatening her at all. Just taking step one of ten in building a new, additional intimate relationship. and if she has been doing a reasonable job of meeting your needs for six months,
Hnm. Define "reasonable". In practice, I have set three weeks as a maximum. Ten days without sex is annoying. Two weeks gets me angry. The three week mark is what makes me not act out on that anger. That secret deadline gives me something to hold on to. I have recourse. That recourse doesn't depend on any pleading, pressure or contest of wills. She's not yet hit the three week mark during an eight month reset. Maybe we'll never get to that bridge? she deserves to have some warnings and a chance to make things right.
Certainly! She has a week or two before the second date. Then another week or two before the third. Third dates are commonly when naughty stuff happens. She has a minimum of two weeks to negotiate the end of my dating before anything that could be called infidelity takes place. I've dated twice before. Maybe you didn't know that. She took drastic positive steps to cut my dating short. We're both pleased about that. ..Remember "I statements."
Ugh. I'm bad at those. Even though I think they're a good idea. "... when I feel neglected like this, it makes me start thinking about dating other women again. Can we please get the sex frequency back up?"
*buzz* nope. Don't ask. Just do. I never said I'd stopped dating. I'm just dating HER now. Exclusively. Not asking. Ever. The platonic dates are me telling her that the amount of intimacy needs supplementation. She can supply it, or I can keep dating her new tag team partner. The helplessness for asking for what you want badly to the point of physical need is soul sucking. No need to place yourself in the position of desperate beggar. Acting on having a refuser having abused your limits applies to your divorce ultimatum. If supplying a minimum level of affection is unacceptable, divorce is always an option and the refuser can write up the papers. Why should the refused go through all that hassle for something they don't want? For some refusers, that minimum level of intimacy will be a deal breaker. Other times, refusers will step up. Sometimes you'll get the latter, then the former. "It's a platonic date." The problem with that statement is that you are promising to limit yourself to no sex, and admitting that it would be wrong to have sex with her. Don't limit yourself and your options! Oh, it'll be clear that the dates won't stay platonic indefinitely. If she asks, I'll readily provide my prediction that we'll be knocking boots by the forth or fifth. "Wrong" is an opinion (though so ubiquitous as to be mistaken for fact). It's also "wrong" to refuse your spouse over and over and over and not be mindful of normal human sexuality if your own is on life support. (this opinion is largely muted by refused spouses keeping silent, hiding the 20% of sexless marriages that might promote awareness and reflection on this contrasting opinion) Could be. After my affair 10 years ago, I did agree (under great duress - an offer I couldn't refuse...) not to see that woman again. If you take a new partner someday, perhaps checking in with that woman ten years ago won't be a hard "No." anymore. What difference does it make? If it still is a hard "No." I have to wonder why she has the power to refuse your happiness in TWO ways. What is it about depriving you gets her off?
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 28, 2020 14:00:17 GMT -5
Of interest in this post is a similarity to my own situation. My wife told me early in our marriage that cheating was an automatic divorce. So I never asked her whether a second lover would be okay. I just told her there's be one. The stories of seen about asking have been met by the spouse with a predictable refusal. I'm not sure asking makes any sense. Just declare it'll happen. When and why. I agree that asking "Honey, do you mind if I outsource?" is unlikely to lead to a satisfactory outcome. What might be ok is to offer some choices: 1. Visit a sex therapist and/or doctor to figure out why sex is so unpleasant/uninteresting/seems like a chore, etc. We're looking for a long-term change in attitude, some enthusiasm, not just duty/pity/starfish sex. Offer to visit a therapist together, if the refuser wants that. The way this last resort gambit works is you don't ask whether your partner "minds". What's in it for them? Nothing. You present it as an alternative to divorce, as a way of getting off the celibate filibuster -- and you prepare to follow through with real consequences. You need to be at peace enough to be the one to initiate divorce when she says "No." Her "No" banks on the lack of consequence you present. Make no mistake - this is a "divorce-level" discussion, that creates an opportunity to begin to get serious about addressing the situation before you've actually cheated. And it's a LONG SHOT. A sex therapist is unlikely to offer a solution. Most couples see this as a sexual problem on one person's part. That person, following the end of the marriage, usually ends up in a robust sexual relationship with their next partner. I'm totally with you on focusing on the enthusiasm or the reason for the lack of it though. This is usually the result of a long festering and (by now) irresolvable resentment or disgust, or some meaning they've attached to the sex with you. In my case, it became apparent in hindsight that my wife never truly intended or wanted to be married to me - never got on board. The sex, for her - was tacit approval of a decision she didn't want to make. But, it can be anything. If you are at the point of contempt - it's not coming back. The "Outsource or divorce" gambit puts a timer on the situation so that "Do nothing" is no longer a default celibate option. It's also hard for a sex-averse (with you) partner to OWN that it isn't just they they don't want to have sex with you - it's also that they don't want YOU to have sex. This makes celibacy by intention very apparent - and then you can both figure out what agreeing to celibacy for life means to you. Doing nothing will continue to sustain an unsatisfying outcome.
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Post by baza on Jul 29, 2020 0:56:17 GMT -5
A mate of mine confessed the his marriage had nearly ended due to wife’s lack of interest in sex. He basically told her that although he loved her unless things improved he would be outsourcing the sex part of their marriage. She was naturally horrified but things improved dramatically. Thing is, that pulling this card out of the pack is one thing. Playing it, is quite another. My suggestion - don't even pull the card out of the pack unless you are prepared to play it. Nothing will shed your cred quicker than making statements you are not prepared to back up with action.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 29, 2020 7:24:02 GMT -5
Just a quick follow up. My mate said that he had had this talk with his wife over three years ago and that it seemed to crystallise for her how serious the situation was. He said that he was quite stunned that it took a talk like this to wake his wife up to how serious the issue was. This was despite countless discussions etc. I’m not advocating this, I just find it quite interesting that it took a talk like this to really get action. As for me I’ve had my last “talk” with my wife and she clearly knows where things are at, our youngest graduates high school this year and our eldest is getting married, after those two events I see that I’m pretty much free to pick and choose what I want do. I intend to see the world, starting with a year on the road and will certainly not be returning to the marital home. It’s quite exciting and invigorating yet at the same time it’s tinged with sadness. I’m looking forward to this next chapter and the freedom as I feel that I’ve sacrificed myself for the last 20 years. Have you consulted with a lawyer to see how things will go in your state after she decides your "travelling" is not in her presumed best interest? You might also consider the possibility that she may "travel" and establish residency in a decidedly anti-guy state and file for divorce on her own favorable terms. If you are intending on leaving, I'm not sure why it's in your best interest to telegraph this move years in advance to give her plenty of time to screw you over.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jul 29, 2020 7:53:37 GMT -5
Just a quick follow up. My mate said that he had had this talk with his wife over three years ago and that it seemed to crystallise for her how serious the situation was. He said that he was quite stunned that it took a talk like this to wake his wife up to how serious the issue was. This was despite countless discussions etc. I’m not advocating this, I just find it quite interesting that it took a talk like this to really get action. As for me I’ve had my last “talk” with my wife and she clearly knows where things are at, our youngest graduates high school this year and our eldest is getting married, after those two events I see that I’m pretty much free to pick and choose what I want do. I intend to see the world, starting with a year on the road and will certainly not be returning to the marital home. It’s quite exciting and invigorating yet at the same time it’s tinged with sadness. I’m looking forward to this next chapter and the freedom as I feel that I’ve sacrificed myself for the last 20 years. From this i take it that your mate has been in a turn around for 3yrs now. That is enough time to consider it a legitimate reversal, provided the intimacy is more than just "duty" sex. If you read much here you will find that a fair # of members have taken this route. Results have been all over the place, from spouses agreeing to the outsourcing to those that prefer divorce over allowing another sexual relationship within the marriage(my X for instance). Like shamwow I would advise you to keep your cards close to the vest lest you find yourself forced into a position of reacting to her plans for the future instead of being proactive with your plans.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 29, 2020 15:05:32 GMT -5
When under pressure, my wife was capable of having sex more often. This was most noticeable during our "hysterical bonding" episode when I did make an obvious attempt to start outsourcing. As I recall, she actually seemed to enjoy our first romp, but, within three weeks she was comfortable enough to lose interest in sex again.
Three years is an impressive achievement as far as rekindling the marriage bed goes.
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