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Post by marrieddad123 on May 3, 2020 8:56:27 GMT -5
Thanks again for everyone's thoughtful replies.
The kink I have tends to trigger a debate. I know it's not your every day common marriage activity, but I've seen first hand how it affected people when I spent time in the swinger scene 10 years ago in the UK.
Also, it would seem less common again because most couples like this won't go broadcasting it to everyone they know.
Join a local swinger site and see for yourself how many genuine couples profiles are there. It's a fast growing thing in the internet age. Most in the top 3 most frequent searches on pornhub.com.
I recognise that there's pitfalls, but a lot of people who are dubious about how things work out, rarely do they take the time to consider how that is safe guarded against.
I'm not gonna go from sex with my wife one weekend to having a stranger do it the next weekend. It's a journey with small steps all along the way. I won't outline each step here, but basically you build up to it and have all kinds of different trust exercises to check that you're on the same, safe path.
Any intelligent person can sit down, think about it for a while and realise that there are dozens of ways of ensuring that it doesn't rip apart your marriage.
It's not something I intend to just dive into. If anything, it will improve how we communicate things like consent, fetishes, kinks and bring us closer.
Put another way, my wife uses a rubber life like dildo sometimes. Sometimes with a blindfold. Imagine it was a Male sex doll, no big difference. Imagine it was a warm sex doll. Imagine it had automatic functions so it was effectively a warm, Male sex robot with my wife. Not much leap for it to be an anonymous man, doing the things that the life like dildo does.
Sorry if that's a bad analogy, but it's one that came from my wife all those years ago when she was thinking it over. All the other man really is, is just a warmed up dildo, just way more intense all round. Doesn't want him to cook her dinner or paint the fence, just visit at that particular time, neutral location, no contact numbers, he can wear a mask etc. That's one way of looking at it.
Anyone still unsure about the references I poorly quoted, look up a Ted talk by Christopher Ryan on Sex at Dawn. That'll answer that question. Also an entertaining one.
I think my real issue is that my wife will not communicate her reasons for NOT wanting to do it. Saying NO is enough for her. That's not good enough for me. Whether people agree or not, I think an answer like that needs to be justified more. She was VERY into the idea, in fact SHE was the one who bought the Sex at Dawn book.
Overnight - I'm not interested.
Why darling?
Not telling you.
Why?
Just NO.
apart from that, she actually still role plays the fantasy during sex, and even in the occasional sexting session we have.
I think I deserve an answer to why it isn't on the table anymore. No way I'm bringing it up though.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 3, 2020 14:04:04 GMT -5
Apocrypha I'm certainly not shaming anyone who is into this kind of thing, or any kind of consensual sexual thing, and I don't think Handy was, either-please correct me if I'm wrong. Someone in a sexually averse marriage comes to this board to announce that they've developed an unusual fantasy that exhibits some aspect of consensual, adult, sexual adventure, freedom, and abundance. Moreover, that fantasy scenario encompasses events and images that don't particularly require his direct involvement. The motif is the fantasy and eroticization of his wife's desire and appetite alone. You don't have to be a psychologist to see how the undercurrents there might be an adaptive response for people faced with a partner they love, who appears to have no desire. For years - almost a decade even - I kept my erotic visualization attached only to my wife and maybe a few saucy pictures we took. It was my sole gratification - and it was the only way I was able to feel "faithful" - rather than attaching my desire to some external source. Unhealthy and unhelpful - yes - but that was what I did when I was inside it. The fantasy I returned to was in imagining or seeing my wife in a sexual moment (with me). It was seeing her hungry again. Her, expressing a sexual appetite - was the bullseye of my fantasy life for a decade. Then, her affair happened, on top of everything. I know men and women whose spouses had affairs. I know men and women who also experienced hysterical bonding - and then felt shameful about it or pathetic, or confused and disoriented about their own response. And then when they've tried to talk about it, they've been faced with a bunch of people close to them who really hadn't actually dealt with that situation explain to them how they would have dealt with it - often in the most self-flattering terms, and in terms chosen to make the other feel foolish and more insufficient. That helps no one. To me, that's reads like people saying what they'd do if someone kicked the door in and took hostages at gunpoint. You think you know what you'd do? No, you have a fantasy of what you'd like to do - the person you wish you'd be. But no one really knows what will actually happen when faced with the real thing. No one. And by way of example - if that still seems like a far stretch. Imagine being celibate for the past 10 years, but still not having DONE anything to change that. How many stories are like that on this very board, right now? Does that seem like something anyone would sign up for, or tolerate? WE DO IT ALL THE TIME HERE, but then cough and sputter as if that's within bounds, but some guy wanting to see his partner enjoying sex (and whatever chips fall from that), is absolutely nuts. Who here thought they were signing up for years of celibacy and loneliness in marriage? Not me - that's for sure. You'd never have considered that for a moment, when getting married - instant dealbreaker. Call the whole thing off. And yet, look what's actually happened in our lives and what we REALLY did. We should all be so lucky to find that kink is the source of the sexual incompatibility. Usually kink involves some ritual in which to "change modes", to help get OVER an inhibition that blocks pleasure. Like making one's bed at the start of a day, or taking a shower when you get home - regardless of whether you need it. Kink issues can be learned, and are actually a thing that can be done or negotiated with, if there's compatibility and desire. More often though, communication around sex and these kinds of offers end up as yours did - with a partner turning up their nose and posing the other as a pervert. If someone you are into suggests a sexual adventure, it's great! Maybe yes! If someone who you aren't into at all suggests the same, it will be taken as an escalation of already unwanted demands, and further disconnection. Not sure if you were addressing me, but I'm not an Aussie, I'm a Canuck.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 3, 2020 14:05:28 GMT -5
Maybe I care about the future too much.
Right. Because people who have different views or preferences than you care less about their future.
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Post by saarinista on May 3, 2020 15:32:40 GMT -5
Apocrypha Same difference if you are Canadian. Universal health care makes a difference and a good one. It's good to be part of the Commonwealth, I think. Look, I think I've diverted the thread. Like I said, sexual creativity is a good thing IMHO as long as it's consensual. I wish I'd experienced more of it, rather than the 10 years of nearly total celibacy I'm struggling with. I say kudos to anyone who puts satisfying sexuality back into their lives after a sexless marriage. Like many, I never expected to be in this situation. For a variety of reasons, I'm not doing very well coping with it. I applaud you and others who have moved forward. You're an inspiration.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 7, 2020 5:33:51 GMT -5
... My mental state is if my W/GF wanted to have sex with another guy, that is the end of my relationship with her. I don't share and only want an exclusive sexual relationship, or it is by by, it WAS nice knowing her before I found out about her multiple partners. My refuser said the same thing very early in our marriage. It didn't matter much to me since I wasn't the cheating kind. I had, however, been in a triad right before we started dating (my fiancee and I had met a terrific fellow at a gathering of very open-minded people and he just clicked with us. He was an usher at my wedding. We're still friends, as is our ex-girlfriend) When my wife and I married, the forsaking all others, to me, meant "unless my wife likes the idea". 20 years later, the marriage had gone sexless and I told my wife there was going to be a third if things didn't change. This was "The Talk" and she reiterated that sex with anyone else meant we were done. I said (paraphrased), 'that's on you. I'm going to be having sex with somebody. I hope it's you, but I'm done being celibate'. The thing is, with her and your wife (I presume she's closed-minded about you taking a lover also), if you don't like my sexuality, why is it so important to you that no one else engages it? You grudgingly put up with it four times a year. You wouldn't need to do that anymore, ever. We keep the household, travel together, survive our golden years, have a friend ready at our deathbed. Everything else a marriage provides. Perhaps it's all the stark fear of being stolen away. To aid in that, I was choosing to date only married women so BOTH of us would have to lose our minds and break all our vows. ... What's the opposite of that? A sense of trust that your lover will stay with you despite exploring sexuality with another. The appreciation for the enrichment of connecting with another. The approval of your partner learning about people and him/herself in polyamorous circles is called "compersion". Many spouses share in joy if a platonic something-great happens to their loved one and sees a spring in their step, a chipper tone in their voice. Their partner's happiness becomes their own. This same joy is had by some spouses when they are intimate with a new lover. It might be considered the opposite of jealousy. So when I hear you speak of outrage (and a sense of vengeance?) in the context of your sexless marriage, it seems illogical. Now, if she was getting some, you weren't, and she was hiding it, that would be a violation of trust. This is a separate issue that eats at a cerebral intellect-level relationship on top of the forsaking vow violation. The trust issue is often the focus of repairing a marriage after an affair. The sex is almost ignored. You said you were heading for the door if she even brought up the subject (perhaps only if it were a specific fella she had in mind, but my curiosity applies in either case). While you long for her sexuality, it is not forthcoming. If that sexuality does blossom, just not with you, everything else is forfeit. If you left her, she'd still be having that sex you didn't want her to, yet you stay in a sexless marriage in order that she remain celibate. A kind of refusing in itself. Justified by marriage vows. Apocrypha speaks of both people being unhappy with sexlessness. If he were right and the wife only stays "true" because she desperately likes her stable life with you (this can be any pair of people in your situation), his scenario fits to a T. Both are trapped. One by sexlessness, the other by fear. The alternative is just beyond consideration for many, it's all too clear. Morals / societal expectations prohibit affairs. But oddly, they prohibit negotiated infidelity even more! This last observation has been puzzling me immensely over the past few years.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 7, 2020 11:31:41 GMT -5
This was "The Talk" and she reiterated that sex with anyone else meant we were done. I said (paraphrased), 'that's on you. I'm going to be having sex with somebody. I hope it's you, but I'm done being celibate'. Until a date, a time, a person, and a process of selection for that are known, with the spouse given permission to be as involved as he/she wants to be (or negotiated), that's all just posturing and kicking the can farther down the road. About the same as threatening distant consequences "if something doesn't change". There's a big difference between "I'm done being celibate" and no apparent change happening, and between watching your partner dress for a date in which sex is a probability, and sitting with that knowledge. A reasonable question to consider and pose to anyone in this situation - especially if either of you are posing this as simply a mismatch in libido, rather than a total intimate disconnection in which the problem isn't what you do, but rather who you are, as a person. If you split, for example, would she be relieved at never having to have sex again, with anyone? And in the context of marriage, why is it so important that you also remain celibate? There is likely a very good answer to that question, that might open a door to a more truthful conversation. Almost, I think. I like the metaphor of currency and value. You both know you can't eat the money. Yet, because a grocer and I widely share a belief in the value of that money, I can exchange paper for food. A celibate marriage is like an economic bubble on the verge of popping. You both continue to agree that you have a marriage even though there is no mutual unique attraction, as shown by the lack of sex. You can tell yourself stories about the lack of sex. You can talk about some future date when it all might crash down due to the lack of romantic investment underpinning the core. You can treat it as a medical problem - as if your partner became injured and lost bodily function, so that your have a duty to your marriage, irrespective of the absence. But an affair directs you clear attention to the fact that the currency (the marriage) is worthless. It's like a wheelbarrow full of cash to buy a loaf of bread, with wind picking up the dollars and blowing them across the street, and no one going to pick them up. That's the point where people just drop the wheelbarrow and realize the money has no value. So, not stolen - but a collapse in mutual belief or shared fantasy that a marriage is happening, as opposed to cooperative household maintenance.
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DrNo
Junior Member
Posts: 52
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by DrNo on May 7, 2020 16:47:58 GMT -5
... My mental state is if my W/GF wanted to have sex with another guy, that is the end of my relationship with her. I don't share and only want an exclusive sexual relationship, or it is by by, it WAS nice knowing her before I found out about her multiple partners. My refuser said the same thing very early in our marriage. It didn't matter much to me since I wasn't the cheating kind. I had, however, been in a triad right before we started dating (my fiancee and I had met a terrific fellow at a gathering of very open-minded people and he just clicked with us. He was an usher at my wedding. We're still friends, as is our ex-girlfriend) When my wife and I married, the forsaking all others, to me, meant "unless my wife likes the idea". 20 years later, the marriage had gone sexless and I told my wife there was going to be a third if things didn't change. This was "The Talk" and she reiterated that sex with anyone else meant we were done. I said (paraphrased), 'that's on you. I'm going to be having sex with somebody. I hope it's you, but I'm done being celibate'. The thing is, with her and your wife (I presume she's closed-minded about you taking a lover also), if you don't like my sexuality, why is it so important to you that no one else engages it? You grudgingly put up with it four times a year. You wouldn't need to do that anymore, ever. We keep the household, travel together, survive our golden years, have a friend ready at our deathbed. Everything else a marriage provides. Perhaps it's all the stark fear of being stolen away. To aid in that, I was choosing to date only married women so BOTH of us would have to lose our minds and break all our vows. ... What's the opposite of that? A sense of trust that your lover will stay with you despite exploring sexuality with another. The appreciation for the enrichment of connecting with another. The approval of your partner learning about people and him/herself in polyamorous circles is called "compersion". Many spouses share in joy if a platonic something-great happens to their loved one and sees a spring in their step, a chipper tone in their voice. Their partner's happiness becomes their own. This same joy is had by some spouses when they are intimate with a new lover. It might be considered the opposite of jealousy. So when I hear you speak of outrage (and a sense of vengeance?) in the context of your sexless marriage, it seems illogical. Now, if she was getting some, you weren't, and she was hiding it, that would be a violation of trust. This is a separate issue that eats at a cerebral intellect-level relationship on top of the forsaking vow violation. The trust issue is often the focus of repairing a marriage after an affair. The sex is almost ignored. You said you were heading for the door if she even brought up the subject (perhaps only if it were a specific fella she had in mind, but my curiosity applies in either case). While you long for her sexuality, it is not forthcoming. If that sexuality does blossom, just not with you, everything else is forfeit. If you left her, she'd still be having that sex you didn't want her to, yet you stay in a sexless marriage in order that she remain celibate. A kind of refusing in itself. Justified by marriage vows. Apocrypha speaks of both people being unhappy with sexlessness. If he were right and the wife only stays "true" because she desperately likes her stable life with you (this can be any pair of people in your situation), his scenario fits to a T. Both are trapped. One by sexlessness, the other by fear. The alternative is just beyond consideration for many, it's all too clear. Morals / societal expectations prohibit affairs. But oddly, they prohibit negotiated infidelity even more! This last observation has been puzzling me immensely over the past few years. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 move over Baza, I just had to read that twice it was that good!
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Post by Apocrypha on May 8, 2020 9:53:27 GMT -5
The alternative is just beyond consideration for many, it's all too clear. Morals / societal expectations prohibit affairs. But oddly, they prohibit negotiated infidelity even more! This last observation has been puzzling me immensely over the past few years. That really is something that bakes my noodle. When I was in a long term invested serious "relatively stable" polyamorous arrangement: relationship 2.0 with my wife, plus my paramour, and my wife with her own, I was deathly afraid of being discovered. If I had come out as gay, or if I was a single man with a number of partners in serial - totally acceptable to the neighbours, but not this. As a single man, I've had quite a few partners, whereas as a polyamorous one, I had one extra partner, and barely my own wife eventually. I've had FAR more partners as a single man, than I ever did in an intentionally non-monogamous relationship. Again - totally acceptable in polite company. Based on infidelity rates, likely over half of married partners have been in some form of non-monogamous arrangement. They just didn't know it. And when they did find out about it - they are applauded quite often if they work hard and reconcile. The most interesting thing though, is if they are parents who separate. In that scenario they are also very likely to -- the rest of their lives -- associate in a friendly positive cooperative manner with someone who is not only banging their spouse, but also taking on a step-parental role with their children. In this case, they are afforded the most praise for how cooperative and integrated they are and praised as healthy role models. And this could go on for the rest of their lives, at every significant event - Xmas, birthdays, holidays, weddings of their children. Imagining the reality of that and the difficulty of that, it's not really such a far leap to consider and weigh a more practical arrangement. I was faced with two options: 1. divorce from my "intimacy averse" wife, who suddenly felt more sexual when the marital obligation was abandoned, and then both of us realizing the prospect of facing third parties in our childrens' lives in a parental role 2. Negotiating a new "open relationship" with my wife, in which I said "let's try it" - holding her to the standard I might when considering a brand new single mother with kids moving in next door with a similar arrangement - but open Framing it that way, I picked option two. But my error in thinking about it - which I corrected - was in not realizing that she wasn't actually "intimacy averse" in general, as she said. It seems so obvious in hindsight. Especially because of her affair. Especially given the timing of her "feeling sexual" again, simultaneous with our initial intent to separate. Sex with someone who you fundamentally don't see as a sexual partner, or under conditions (such as a marriage) which you fundamentally don't want to be in, will always be a depletive activity. It doesn't matter if you are attractive or have amazing technique. My wife could count on two fingers the number of men who could rip an orgasm out of her whether she was in the mindset or not - she'd always had trouble with it with anyone in her life. She even had trouble pleasing herself. But my knowledge of her body didn't make her want me. Sex with someone who you DO desire as a sexual partner, or under conditions that feel desirable, always feels like a restorative or energizing or satisfying activity.So what I learned from my own "ethically non-monogamous" situation, over time, was that I was the depletive activity in which she could choose to "spend" sexual energy that she built up from satisfying encounters with people or situations she actually desired (she spoke about this more palateably as "freedom"). Once I finally clued in to that fact - I realized that the temporary surge in which we DID have sex was because she was just horny. It wasn't because she actually wanted me. So, that's a reason why mixing the hotwife, or cuckold, or wittol, or poly, or any other party into the mix doesn't change the fundamental dysfunction at the core of the marriage. Yes, you can have sex, even love and meaningful sex outside the marriage, but you still must sit with the knowledge that the partner you actually live in your home doesn't want you. And what are you going to do with that? It's your HOME. You could be a goddam Cassanova outside with sexual experiences that is the stuff of Penthouse letters - but then you'll go home and look across at the person who measured you up, said "Yes Please" and then changed their mind and said "No more." Every. Day. And what's worse, because the dysfunctional deal is so resentful and contemptuous (whether overt or implicit), when you DO go out to start a from scratch relationship with someone new, you begin to realize how nice, warm, sexy, accommodating and easy it is to be kind to someone who is starting at zero. You embark on this whole thing with the impression that you will bleed the steam with someone else so your boiler doesn't explode at home - but the irony is that your standards go up, not down. In the best case scenario, you see how loved and fulfilled you feel with someone starting from zero, while someone with everything depending on it douses you with icewater and acid.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 8, 2020 18:26:19 GMT -5
The alternative is just beyond consideration for many, it's all too clear. Morals / societal expectations prohibit affairs. But oddly, they prohibit negotiated infidelity even more! This last observation has been puzzling me immensely over the past few years. The most interesting thing though, is if they are parents who separate. In that scenario they are also very likely to -- the rest of their lives -- associate in a friendly positive cooperative manner with someone who is not only banging their spouse, but also taking on a step-parental role with their children. In this case, they are afforded the most praise for how cooperative and integrated they are and praised as healthy role models. And this could go on for the rest of their lives, at every significant event - Xmas, birthdays, holidays, weddings of their children. ... Now imagine the two new couples divorce, the exes pair up again and the new spouses marry each other. What's the reaction? Still amazed at how the two couples get along so great and raise the family like a team? Thunderous applause? Or brain melting confusion? If parents of a set of children have sex after divorce, does the applause stop? "Hey! You're not supposed to like each other THAT much!" So, that's a reason why mixing the hotwife, or cuckold, or wittol, or poly, or any other party into the mix doesn't change the fundamental dysfunction at the core of the marriage. Yes, you can have sex, even love and meaningful sex outside the marriage, but you still must sit with the knowledge that the partner you actually live in your home doesn't want you. And what are you going to do with that? It's your HOME. You could be a goddam Cassanova outside with sexual experiences that is the stuff of Penthouse letters - but then you'll go home and look across at the person who measured you up, said "Yes Please" and then changed their mind and said "No more." Every. Day.Many SMs here are described as roommates. I'd envisioned my wife and I living that roommate life. A roommate shouldn't care if I go out for a hot date, nor should I mind when she steps out. In centuries past, this wasn't all that uncommon. Marriage could be seen as an economic partnership or a intention of producing heirs that could support them in old age before social security was a thing. Yet now we insist passion must be part of it too. Hey, that'd be nice, but dealing with reality instead of ideals is often a better path to sanity and sometimes happiness. (Your comments may have been strictly personal and I recognize these two are not incompatible.) And what's worse, because the dysfunctional deal is so resentful and contemptuous (whether overt or implicit), when you DO go out to start a from scratch relationship with someone new, you begin to realize how nice, warm, sexy, accommodating and easy it is to be kind to someone who is starting at zero. You embark on this whole thing with the impression that you will bleed the steam with someone else so your boiler doesn't explode at home - but the irony is that your standards go up, not down. In the best case scenario, you see how loved and fulfilled you feel with someone starting from zero, while someone with everything depending on it douses you with icewater and acid.A miserable scenario and you told us about her silly jealous streak that had her shooting daggers out of her eyes at you, against all sense of logic or justice. Though, I'm not sure this must be the case (nor do I say you suggest it is.)
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Post by surfergirl on May 12, 2020 23:04:39 GMT -5
Not saying how I know, but.....
To participate in swinging successfully (meaning, you want it to enhance your marriage instead of it being kindling for an explosion), you have to have an already strong marriage with excellent communication.
The long-term swingers I've known are the ones VERY much in love and bonded; they were that way BEFORE they began swinging.
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Post by baza on May 13, 2020 0:48:43 GMT -5
By my observation (not personal experience) I think Sister surfergirl 's point is very valid. You'd want to be operating from a very stable and strong marital base for the swinging / open marriage caper to be a goer.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 13, 2020 6:39:48 GMT -5
This was "The Talk" and she reiterated that sex with anyone else meant we were done. I said (paraphrased), 'that's on you. I'm going to be having sex with somebody. I hope it's you, but I'm done being celibate'. "The Talk" was Feb 2017. She expressed sympathy but nothing changed. Perhaps in March I got online and tested profiles on Bumble, Coffee and Bagel, Tinder, and teh runaway favorite: OKcupid. Until a date,
Got one August 2018 (after research was finished.) a time,
Sunday breakfast a person,
Melissa and a process of selection for that are known OKcupid, with the spouse given permission to be as involved as he/she wants to be (or negotiated)
Nope. First date was secret to find out whether I had any "game", but I did give her the options when she asked and I admitted it unapologetically. (I warned her a year and a half earlier. Wanna complain? Go ahead.) ., that's all just posturing and kicking the can farther down the road.
Agreed. Which is why I started when there was zero movement after "The Talk". It's "The Talk", not plural. "The Talk" is like a gun. Don't pull it if you're not ready to use it in potentially disastrous ways. ...watching your partner dress for a date in which sex is a probability, and sitting with that knowledge.
Didn't need to get that far (yet.) My wife was seeing a therapist for an unrelated reason. She told her therapist, in my presence, about my dating and I explained myself unapologetically to the shocked (rookie?) social worker. That was December 2019 and the reset since has been impressive. I suspect that therapist gave her a serious reality check and my wife doesn't seem unpleased with the results. (Well, duh! Husbands get a whole lot better when they're not rejected and grumpy.)
A reasonable question to consider and pose to anyone in this situation - especially if either of you are posing this as simply a mismatch in libido, rather than a total intimate disconnection in which the problem isn't what you do, but rather who you are, as a person. If you split, for example, would she be relieved at never having to have sex again, with anyone? And in the context of marriage, why is it so important that you also remain celibate? There is likely a very good answer to that question, that might open a door to a more truthful conversation.She posed it as a libido mismatch and I assumed it was the truth. But she didn't DO anything about it, so it didn't much matter. She wanted spooning and kisses, but sex hurt, so it was unappealing. (Again, no measures taken to fix that.) Sexual interest was infrequent as well, so non penetrative intimacy was rare as well. I suspect she had no confidence in the realm of non-penetrative intimacy, but that's not well explored territory. Would she be relieved at acceptable celibacy? I truly don't know. She likes the cuddling and kissing, so I expect it would be a real problem for any future dating she'd choose to do. The conversation of the importance of monogamy to her is on hold because we're almost at what's considered an average sex life (with twice a month being the lowest frequency I've heard as being "average". 250% higher than a "sexless" marriage). Almost, I think. I like the metaphor of currency and value. You both know you can't eat the money. Yet, because a grocer and I widely share a belief in the value of that money, I can exchange paper for food.
(Macroeconomic theory is a pet interest of mine. I'll mercifully let that characterization of fiat currency slide.) A celibate marriage is like an economic bubble on the verge of popping. You both continue to agree that you have a marriage even though there is no mutual unique attraction, as shown by the lack of sex.
The desire to cuddle and engage in platonic, but unquestionably intimate contact with each other may place our relationship outside your model a little. ... You can talk about some future date when it all might crash down due to the lack of romantic investment underpinning the core...But an affair directs you clear attention to the fact that the currency (the marriage) is worthless. It's like a wheelbarrow full of cash to buy a loaf of bread, with wind picking up the dollars and blowing them across the street, and no one going to pick them up. That's the point where people just drop the wheelbarrow and realize the money has no value.So, not stolen - but a collapse in mutual belief or shared fantasy that a marriage is happening, as opposed to cooperative household maintenance.
What you illustrate is a currency collapse, not an economic crash. Sexuality is a currency that has no value within a sexless marriage for whatever reason. That would mean my sexuality had no value outside our country. Not so, I crossed the border to Melissa and, while we didn't negotiate a trade agreement, there was interest in what we had to offer each other. That is because Melissa agreed my sexuality had value. Perhaps slipping into a barter economic model, my sexuality is a commodity in demand across the border, but there's a glut in mine and I can't sell mine for any price because there's only one customer due to a government backed monopoly. If I start bartering across the border, and my product doesn't sell domestically, why do I bother going back home after each sale? Well, it just so happens I'm quite comfortable in the local cuisine, my house is set up right, the local economy has been stable and rewarding, my family lives there, but my former customer is terrified that I'll start to consider trading everything else in. In a currency collapse, your currency/sexuality is not good anywhere. That is a premise I tested by making my first date secret. So my Deutschemarks are still marketable. By the way, I think "negotiating a trade agreement" may be my favorite euphemism for dating now.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 13, 2020 10:18:11 GMT -5
Nope. First date was secret to find out whether I had any "game", but I did give her the options when she asked and I admitted it unapologetically. (I warned her a year and a half earlier. Wanna complain? Go ahead.) " The whole point of the Doomsday Machine is lost if you keep it a secret." - Dr. Strangelove For the benefit of those reading my consideration of the "non-monogamy" play that I sometimes pose, I agree with surfergirl in essence, and it goes my response to you above about "keeping it a secret" vs "putting it directly in front of your spouse to deal with in real time with full cognizance and agency". My tummy says in most of these cases, if it's gone celibate - the marriage is already tanked (though the household might still run very well). There are cases like the OP, where it's a longtime fantasy about the eroticization of appetite and desire itself, which flare up in an environment of absence. There are cases like mirrororchid , where perhaps it's posed as a way to have sex and affection in one's life, apart from the household. If it's not centered in the attention of the couple, I'd say this more resembles an affair - in which a risk is the delayed realization AFTER it's already been done. Like charging a credit card without really knowing the bank balance. At some point, that bill is going to hit your spouse all at once, and then something will happen. Then there are cases which I tend to talk about here, in which I fully realize and expect the hazard accurately described by surfergirl , it's the whole point. A celibate marriage - absent of a conscious non-monogamous decision - is still a plane with a leaky tank, starting on a ocean trip. You are going down. It might be a year from now. It might be 5, 10, after years of gaslighting on it. Depending on your perspective, that might be a much greater tragedy - to invest all that effort and grief across your only lifetime and find out it amounts to ditching anyway, but when you are older and with more to lose. "The Talk" - while it marks a milestone - does nothing to compel a change with your partner. To compel change requires a such a significant pain, threat, terror, effort, that the cost of not-changing is higher than the the discomfort of enduring The Talk periodically and then gaslighting with weaksauce "effort". The problem we all face is that for the threat to have teeth, it generally has to be on par with the discovery of an affair (not the having of it), and by that point, it's an atom bomb. This kind of "non-monogamous" serious proposal ups the ante gradually and in real time, while also affording your spouse full agency - a clear decision to participate in the marriage as a sexual partner. This really focuses attention on how the spouse feels about you and the nature of their objection. It changes the default of waiting or gaslighting away from celibacy. And my hunch in most cases - nearly all of them - is that the spouse will not agree with it or try to stop or take action to sabotage it. At which point the two of you can get really honest with each other about why he/she would do that. About celibacy vs monogamy. About what the nature of your mutual investment really is. And about what the nature of one's spouse's turn off is. It's unlikely to end in a continued marriage. But then, it was always unlikely. It just gets to the truth of the relationship sooner.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 15, 2020 4:29:51 GMT -5
Nope. First date was secret to find out whether I had any "game", but I did give her the options when she asked and I admitted it unapologetically. (I warned her a year and a half earlier. Wanna complain? Go ahead.) ...my response to you above about "keeping it a secret" vs "putting it directly in front of your spouse to deal with in real time with full cognizance and agency". My tummy says in most of these cases, if it's gone celibate - the marriage is already tanked (though the household might still run very well).Agreed. My investigating whether open marriage was even a possibility by dating (platonically) in secret was evidence we were in deep trouble and I was ready for the explosion. I was not feeling wrong. If I had no game, why would I blow up a marriage my wife was happy with? If I can't do better, why poison it for her. That is still a ding on my sense of honor, I admit. There are cases like the OP, where it's a longtime fantasy about the eroticization of appetite and desire itself, which flare up in an environment of absence.
Yeah. My impression is OP would be mortified if the urging for her bedding another man so upset her that she filed for divorce. There's a name for repeatedly asking someone for requests for intimacy that have been rejected over and over. It's not typically applied to married people, but the effect can be the same and it may cause extensive, expensive damage. (in time and stress, not necessarily money) There are cases like mirrororchid , where perhaps it's posed as a way to have sex and affection in one's life, apart from the household. If it's not centered in the attention of the couple, I'd say this more resembles an affair - in which a risk is the delayed realization AFTER it's already been done. Like charging a credit card without really knowing the bank balance. At some point, that bill is going to hit your spouse all at once, and then something will happen.Agreed. Uninformed non-monogamy has those consequences. Informed non-monogamy is like using that credit card when your spouse pays the bills and you're not hiding the merchandise you bought with it. In OP's case, he's asking his wife to use the card to buy a power drill. She doesn't want it, she's not sure they can afford it, and knowing how much he wants it is making her feel bad in more ways than one. (just speculation based on reactions OP has relayed) ... "The Talk" - ...requires such a significant pain, threat, terror, effort, that the cost of not-changing is higher than the the discomfort of enduring The Talk ...The problem we all face is that for the threat to have teeth, it generally has to be on par with the discovery of an affair..., and by that point, it's an atom bomb. I went on two platonic dates (Kathy, the second date, hugged me goodbye in the parking lot.). That appeared to be enough that her therapist basically told her she had a leaky tank with no land in sight. We're on a six month reset, so far. (one increasing in quality rather than waning, to my blissful surprise.) I think "terror" was in play just by my "testing the waters". Short of an affair, but enough to be credible in my case. This kind of "non-monogamous" serious proposal ups the ante gradually and in real time, while also affording your spouse full agency - a clear decision to participate in the marriage as a sexual partner. This really focuses attention on how the spouse feels about you and the nature of their objection. It changes the default of waiting or gaslighting away from celibacy. And my hunch in most cases - nearly all of them - is that the spouse will not agree with it or try to stop or take action to sabotage it.Informed (but non-consensual) non-monogamy, from everything I've read over three years, is so exceedingly rare, I've got no data to confirm or deny. It generally gets solved one way or another with just the threat of an affair, or it doesn't and the refused partner has the affair secretly, not providing that opportunity to shut it down with the participation you cite. (I acknowledge some affairs are not agreed to but tolerated which constitutes tacit, grudging consent) Sabotaging a partner's informed non-monogamy efforts with no effort to provide intimate company to replace that sought is likely to drive the effort underground. Not prevent it. This sabotage will suggest the non-viability of informed non-monogamy and suggests divorce will be necessary before intimacy can be achieved. This may be a net positive since the sabotage proves that celibacy will be a mandatory requirement for the marriage to remain intact. At which point the two of you can get really honest with each other about why he/she would do that. About celibacy vs monogamy. About what the nature of your mutual investment really is. And about what the nature of one's spouse's turn off is. It's unlikely to end in a continued marriage. But then, it was always unlikely. It just gets to the truth of the relationship sooner.OP introduces a new factor, though. His desires are not within his control. He wants her to be "unfaithful". It's one thing to convince a spouse to allow/tolerate you solving your own problem. It's another to ask them to do something they don't want to do. The former is a demand for freedom, the latter is pressure on the partner to enslave themself (do another's bidding unwillingly). That sounds harsh, but what I hope is that it may shine a light on possibly existing, unexpectedly high level of resistance and displeasure being evoked?
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Post by angeleyes65 on May 17, 2020 14:10:55 GMT -5
Well that's a lot. I will ask how old are your kids and how often is sex? I have always had a high sex drive and so did my ex the first 15 years and sexual frequency went up and down after kids that's pretty standard. Never less than once a week but still. As far as the hot wife fantasy I am very adventurous but that kind of playing involving other people are not for everyone. Not a good reason to dump a marriage there are other ways to incorporate that fantasy without actually doing it. Those kind of activities are for strong relationships where both people are wanting it. And there is no guarantee you will find that even if you leave. If you are single you may be able to be the extra man in someone else's fantasy.
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