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Post by marrieddad123 on Apr 30, 2020 7:49:02 GMT -5
Thanks all. Excellent advice all round, has really helped with my thinking.
Couple of things I should have clarified. We have physical intercourse less than 10 times a year. And that's only good because I make persistent efforts to bring it up and reconnect with her.
It's like she forgets that she wants sex and enjoys it when we do. Kids have been completely the dominating issue in her libido. She also breastfed them which has a big impact on libido.
My concern is just to stop her from completely losing touch with her sexual side.
We used to have sex multiple times a week in the early stages. Which brings me to the fantasy...
I've been involved in mfm threesome and group sex before we met. I've seen first hand how much pleasure the married couples were getting. That doesn't make me gay or bi.
There's plenty of literature on this but men's brains get turned on by the thought of their partners being taken. Search sperm wars / sex at dawn for reference.
That said, the thought of my beautiful wife, who was already sexually adventurous in the bedroom, open minded, being pleasured by another guy is a huge turn on. It's more normal than people think.centuries of pro- monogamy conditioning have covered over a lot of evolutionary research describing how women are naturally inclined to multiple partners, and monogamy isn't necessarily a natural thing for them. I can provide strong arguments if you are curious and not some wiki link. I'm not gay, but I'm comfortable with being turned on in the presence of other men.
So I shared my desires with her early on in our relationship, before marriage. She was open to it, came very close a couple of times.
Shortly after we married, and before kids, she had pledged how much she wanted to do it, how sexy it would be and all the fun we were going to have. We planned different things, then...
Giving birth just completely shut down the centre for sexual thought in her brain. 4 years later, 2 kids, there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. I still question if this is worth waiting for. Im more feeling like marriage has been a broken promise from a sexual point of view, hence why I was posting in the 1st place.
Again, I want to thank everyone who has responded. Really measured and reasoned advice to take on board for me. I'm glad there's a place on the internet that has time for discussions like this.
Good luck to you all x
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 30, 2020 10:30:22 GMT -5
It's like she forgets that she wants sex and enjoys it when we do. Kids have been completely the dominating issue in her libido. She also breastfed them which has a big impact on libido. My concern is just to stop her from completely losing touch with her sexual side. YOU cannot solve HER sexual disconnection from you. You can only make as appealing an offer as you can. All you really know is that a sexual disconnection from you has appeared roughly at the same time as breast feeding and children. While there is some truth to what you have said (and is she still doing that?) it's also true that over the longer term, there is a shelf life on that - and most mothers do not permanently lose their sex drive as a result of having children. I've dated quite a few single mothers now, and there are many on this board complaining about their partners' disinterest in sex, often coinciding with whatever sundry other reasons, interests or activities are happening in their husbands' lives. Porn. Sports. TV. Work Frequently, enlistment in busy work happens intentionally to avoid contact with a spouse, rather than the busy work actually preventing it. My own wife, for example - started reading bedtime stories to our kindergarten aged children until 10pm or later, as a way of avoiding going to bed with me. She wasn't helping out children in that.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 30, 2020 20:19:00 GMT -5
... in order to have a hotwife experience you must first have a hotwife. Yours ain't. She may be a hottie but a hotwife has a mindset where she craves sex, a lot of it. And not just from you. If you want the hotwife experience you might have to be pinch hitter for some other guys hotwife. I thought of this too, Jim44444. How good is he at fantasy? Can he watch another couple and imagine the lady is his wife? Perhaps voyeurism would be a forgivable sin? How vivid is his imagination? Can he watch porn and imagine he's found a sex tape of his wife with some adulterous stud? That last one might be virtually harmless. Maybe he can find an actress that looks a bit like his Missus and he can take off his glasses to complete the illusion or smear vaseline on the screen. That last tactic might be tough to explain to Geek Squad.
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Post by csl on May 1, 2020 7:45:11 GMT -5
There's plenty of literature on this but men's brains get turned on by the thought of their partners being taken. Search sperm wars / sex at dawn for reference. Uh, no. My first thought on reading this is "Are you fresh out of your mind?" Please explain why so many husbands of cheaters aren't jumping up and down when they find that their wives had affairs? Really, it's not a thing, is it? My visceral reaction to this wasn't "Oooohhh, nice!" It was, "Where's my 5-iron?"
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Post by Apocrypha on May 1, 2020 8:37:53 GMT -5
There's plenty of literature on this but men's brains get turned on by the thought of their partners being taken. Search sperm wars / sex at dawn for reference.
Uh, no. My first thought on reading this is "Are you fresh out of your mind?" Please explain why so many husbands of cheaters aren't jumping up and down when they find that their wives had affairs? Really, it's not a thing, is it? My visceral reaction to this wasn't "Oooohhh, nice!" It was, "Where's my 5-iron?" I think he cited "Sperm Wars" and "Sex at Dawn" These are large, evidenced based books - and likely a big discussion. Before everyone joins you in flexing how badass they'd be if their partner fucked someone else (and I have been in this situation), and whatever they imagine they'd do, maybe go check those out if you are actually interested in hearing. I can see whiffs of this thread spinning out into a case or defence of what kinds of sex you think another person should or shouldn't like - it makes me a bit grumpy - partly because that can essentially be a major aspect of any sexual dynamic conflict between partners in ILIASM - with the averse partner shaming the other for what they want. Or the abandoned partner shaming the other for not wanting it - and trying to build a case that they should want it. A lot of guys, and some women, really get off on the role played emotional intensity of their partner having sex in front of them. While you might find that totally shocking - and it is - I'm sure it's no surprise that some people get off on physical intensity - whips, pain, restraint, role-played abusive personas or domineering or surrendering personas. In the same way, if I was talking to someone and I put my hands around her neck and squeezed, I'd expect to go to jail, and to have her fight back. But I've also been in situations where my partner TOOK MY HAND and put it around her neck and asked me to do that. So if you are utterly baffled as to why/what hotwife or cuckold stuff is about - consider that such activity is done in a context. It IS unusual, intense, and extreme - that's why it's a kink. There's no need to begin flexing about what you'd do if someone tried to spank you or choke you, or bang your wife. Without the context, preference and a general idea of intent, normal real world mores would likely kick in.
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Post by Handy on May 1, 2020 10:36:51 GMT -5
I always thought that the idea of "Sperm Wars" was my sperm was better than the other guys and not much to do with anything to do with a "hot wife/girlfriend," My mental state is if my W/GF wanted to have sex with another guy, that is the end of my relationship with her. I don't share and only want an exclusive sexual relationship, or it is by by, it WAS nice knowing her before I found out about her multiple partners.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 2, 2020 17:45:06 GMT -5
I always thought that the idea of "Sperm Wars" was my sperm was better than the other guys and not much to do with anything to do with a "hot wife/girlfriend," My mental state is if my W/GF wanted to have sex with another guy, that is the end of my relationship with her. I don't share and only want an exclusive sexual relationship, or it is by by, it WAS nice knowing her before I found out about her multiple partners The actual idea of Sperm Wars is a totally googleable thing. You can cross reference that with "hysterical bonding" to understand the common but surprising normal human response to a perception of a massive threat to the relationship, well established in relational psychology.
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Post by Handy on May 2, 2020 18:32:17 GMT -5
Apocrypha, a couple years ago I watched a couple videos about "sperm wars." What I got out of the videos done by a UK university, was my swimmers go after any other man's swimmers and it had little to do with "hot wife" kinks. Sperm volume increased when the couple were apart for a while.
I suppose if a person is into "hot wife" stuff, maybe his ejaculate volume increases if his W has sex with another man.
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Post by csl on May 2, 2020 20:37:06 GMT -5
Apocrypha"It IS unusual, intense, and extreme - that's why it's a kink." You make my point. marrieddad123 made the statement "There's plenty of literature on this but men's brains get turned on by the thought of their partners being taken." He didn't say "Some men" or "A few men", but simply "men", which seems to imply that many, most or all men get a charge our of it. But as you correctly point out, it is unusual, and hence seen as a kink or aberration. Thank you.
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Post by saarinista on May 2, 2020 21:11:43 GMT -5
I always thought that the idea of "Sperm Wars" was my sperm was better than the other guys and not much to do with anything to do with a "hot wife/girlfriend," My mental state is if my W/GF wanted to have sex with another guy, that is the end of my relationship with her. I don't share and only want an exclusive sexual relationship, or it is by by, it WAS nice knowing her before I found out about her multiple partners The actual idea of Sperm Wars is a totally googleable thing. You can cross reference that with "hysterical bonding" to understand the common but surprising normal human response to a perception of a massive threat to the relationship, well established in relational psychology. Gee. I'll have to bring that up for a refresher course in my next therapy session. 😏 I bond hysterically without any explicit threat of my lover being taken by someone else. Come to think of it, though, I'm always worried about losing approval, even when there's no concrete competition in the picture. Maybe I hysterically bond naturally. No threesome needed! 😂
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Post by Handy on May 2, 2020 21:40:39 GMT -5
Saarinista I bond hysterically without any explicit threat of my lover being taken by someone else.
Doing repair work on bids and piece work has me burned out on competition, so I need exclusivity and compatibility. Fitting myself in to what others wanted is also tiring. That is why compatibility is so important now.
I do have some likes but the compatibility seems more important. No threesome needed, like wise.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 2, 2020 22:18:26 GMT -5
Apocrypha, a couple years ago I watched a couple videos about "sperm wars." What I got out of the videos done by a UK university, was my swimmers go after any other man's swimmers and it had little to do with "hot wife" kinks. Sperm volume increased when the couple were apart for a while. I suppose if a person is into "hot wife" stuff, maybe his ejaculate volume increases if his W has sex with another man. In the context of this kind of thing, that's about 1% of it. Look, I'm not exactly in the business of selling it - it's not MY thing - but I understand it because I've been in contact with a fair amount of people who ARE into it. The book also referenced "Sex at Dawn" presents a wider case. Not a case that EVERYONE is into it (whatever the OP said), but rather that this kink is not uncommon at all, and for the scholarly minded within these sorts of things, may be rooted in this kind of behaviour, which goes to evolutionary psychology. Things like, why does sperm production ramp up, when a man's partner is gone for a long time? Why do women tend to cheat and dress differently during ovulation? Why do women cry out loudly in orgasm, to a greater degree than men, cross culturally? Why do men, and gay men, tend to send dick picks. Why do those same men, even get aroused by their OWN dick pick? There's all that. What commonalities do humans have with Bonobo apes and the way sexuality intersects with their social behavior, as opposed to chimpanzees? Then, as I think I've mentioned, there is the degradation/humiliation roleplayed element. It's VERY common, in BDSM scenes to either "take a tone" in sexual scenes, to need that to step outside of their own heads and get over themselves - be that through pain, restraint, or sometimes forms of humiliation or supplication. It's so common that it's a "whips and chains" cliche known to pretty much everyone - whether they are into it or not. And I GUARANTEE if you are not - that you REALLY DON'T KNOW what your friends and relatives do on the weekend. If you ever happen to be introduced into that scene as I have been, you'd be shocked at the people you already know who have been there a long time, and how normal most of them are. And for me - that was just the people that were into it enough to go in public. For many people with this "hotwife or cuckold" fantasy, this is an aspect or offshoot of that. Essentially - and I'm not RECOMMENDING it - I'm posing the psychology of the people who enjoy it or are curious about it - it is (as with whips and chains) an bunji jump of trust. A roller coaster ride, if you will, as opposed to a full autowreck. In a safe or safer, semi-controlled environment, a couple plays out the most sacred violation or humiliation, and then is welcomed back and accepted again. For those "in on it" - it is on par with a hazing ritual, in which the goal is the offer of complete emotional vulnerability, followed by acceptance. Now, you might be good with that, or you might just understand what's intended, or you might not want or like that at all. "Hysterical Bonding" - in a similar manner (for those who don't feel much like googling), is a common psychological response to infidelity. I have experienced it, as well as a friend who also (like me) discovered his wife's devastating infidelity. I - and he - used to flex just as much as anyone about what I would do when faced with an infidelity. I did some of those things, but I did not expect my almost hysterical initial response, which included an absolute need on both our parts (my wife as well) to have frantic, crazy, angry, passionate sex with each other - almost violent, sobbing sex. I have never had its equal - and I don't wish to under those emotional circumstances. I was actually quite bothered by it, but our family psychiatrist said it was actually an extremely common response. BTW, that wasn't the ONLY response I had - the whole experience of the infidelity was devastating, leading to a rapid depression, job loss, and many downstream effects. But there is a root mechanism at play. So, I really don't put a lot of stock in people flexing and posing about how badass they might be, or what their standards are - and shaming others about what they like or don't like sexually. ESPECIALLY on this board, given that nearly all of us have been shamed and had more conventional requests also posed as perversion or excess. Are we really going to get into a debate about what kinds of things a person should like? There are subcultures of men who don't like giving oral sex to their women partners because it is seen as a feminine act - wasn't there an episode of The Sopranos about dealing with that? Are we all going to jump in and flex about how we wouldn't debase ourselves that way? Do we need a bunch of people who would never give oral to a woman to kick the door in to explain how they don't like doing that? Sometimes people like different things than the things you like. What's more practical, and perhaps more on topic - is to bend the discussion to how that fantasy (or ANY fantasy) fits within the larger picture of an intimacy averse marriage.
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Post by saarinista on May 2, 2020 22:54:56 GMT -5
Apocrypha I'm certainly not shaming anyone who is into this kind of thing, or any kind of consensual sexual thing, and I don't think Handy was, either-please correct me if I'm wrong. Speaking for myself, I come from a pretty conservative family where sex was not discussed. Everything I learned came from my college experiences or books--but not that many books. And my husband is even more conservative sexually than I am. Now, I have an imagination. I can imagine how some of these things you discuss could be a turn on, but right now, I'm trying to figure out just how to get basically laid, period. (More specifically, how to attain a relationship which includes sex.) I'm trying to decide the future of my marriage, which is almost certainly not repairable sexually. Stay or leave, i am faced with the seemingly daunting task of somehow getting a sex life again at all. Again, with 60 😱breathing hot on my neck, I'm wondering how I'll attract any man at ALL, let alone one with a sexual imagination. I don't know whether sexless marriages are more or less likely to have included some of the spicier elements you've mentioned. I would think the kink might keep the marriage hotter, but I don't know. I suggested some very mild bondage to my husband once and he turned his nose up so I didn't push it. If I'm in any kind of a sexual thing in the future, I'd like to be with someone who is open minded to spicy ideas, though I'm not sure how spicy. But it can't hurt to talk about things. At this point, plain old friction is a bit repetitive and interesting sex could be stimulating. After all, the brain IS the largest sex organ. You Aussies may just be more evolved. With your universal healthcare (count me envious) and family psychiatrists and such, perhaps you're better positioned than Americans to take sex and other things to a higher level. I'm starting to feel rather boring by contrast. But hey, at least I can learn from those in the commonwealth realms on this board! There's no telling what might rub off on we Americans eventually.
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Post by baza on May 2, 2020 23:02:26 GMT -5
Quoting Brother Apocrypha here - "What's more practical, and perhaps more on topic - is to bend the discussion to how that fantasy (or ANY fantasy) fits within the larger picture of an intimacy averse marriage" The OP's original thread read (to me) like a pretty standard ILIASM story, with pretty standard issues, and the 3-some part of it very much a side-bar. I think that usual suggestions apply - if you get your own shit sorted out, then you'll be some chance of bringing your ILIASM deal to a resolution. "What" that resolution might look like is not known at this time. It might be what you'd like it to be, or it may not. But if you arrive at a truth based resolution, then you got it "right". That might mean an enhanced relationship, it might mean the odd 3-some within that relationship. It might mean "none of the above".
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Post by Handy on May 2, 2020 23:30:18 GMT -5
Saarinista I'm certainly not shaming anyone who is into this kind of thing, or any kind of consensual sexual thing, and I don't think Handy was, either-please correct me if I'm wrong. I am right there with you Saarinista on most all of items and thoughts. Like Saarinista, I am trying to figure out how to just get the basics sexually. (More specifically, how to attain a relationship which includes sex.)Apocrypha, I tend to be risk averse and the "hot wife" thing seems like it could lead to serious relationship issues in the future. If you think it is cool, that is OK with me. I can read about it and other kinks and be OK with it for those that can navigate the issues.
I read about Warren Buffet thoughts when it comes to investing. Does the company (person in this case) have what people want at a reasonable price/cost and can the company or person be relied upon. Does the company or person seem like a good long term prospect. Are there any long term liabilities that can't or shouldn't be undertaken.
No I can't predict what might go wrong with my style of a relationship but "hot wifeing" seems to have some potential future issues. Maybe I care about the future too much.
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