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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 22, 2020 12:36:43 GMT -5
Refusers seem to believe they can keep this game up indefinitely because based on what I've seen on this site, refusers can continue the game forever. Most of the refused who end up on this site will remain in their sexless marriages. After all some people here have not had sex with their mates since the inception of their marriage. Some literally have been married and celibate for decades. That's true. Here's a nugget about my own process in the dating world: When I encounter a person who claims to have been married and celibate for that long, I take it as a red flag that they may also be averse to intimacy or not care about it much. In a similar way, I look at prospects who have been in long term long distance relationships as potentially averse to intimacy.
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Post by csl on Apr 22, 2020 12:45:36 GMT -5
But what is it that they are really getting? With few exceptions, the "benefits" any of us bring to a relationship aren't really unique. Why not go and find those things with someone you desire? I can fix anything, provide (hopefully) wise counsel, am an excellent protector and can still make her laugh. Big whoop. That describes millions of others, many of whom presumably do not have the general attitude and self-confidence issues an SM brings. In fact, I've become a bit of a pain always bringing it up, moreso in recent years. Empirically, I can see the latter part of your statement must be true - my wife does not truly care about my wants/needs. I just have a hard time accepting that truth. It wasn't always this way, but has been long enough that I couldn't really pinpoint when the change occurred. That implies things have been bad for her as well. Still, no effort to leave, change the dynamic or even initiate a conversation about any of this. That is left to me. They get an easy road. They get to coast all the way to the finish line. I have noticed that those who have gone ahead and pulled the pin and exploded the grenade come back and report, down the line, the the refuser now has to work, metaphorically speaking, in order to pull someone else into a relationship. They have to be date-able again; they have to put on a believable facade, again, that tells potential mates that being with them is worthwhile. As long as the refused tolerates, to borrow from a cult classic, the marriage abides.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 22, 2020 14:00:03 GMT -5
But, it takes control away from the refuser. It also exposes the fact that the only reason the relationship is stable is because the refuser is getting what they want and doesn't give a shit about what the refused wants. But what is it that they are really getting? With few exceptions, the "benefits" any of us bring to a relationship aren't really unique. Why not go and find those things with someone you desire? I can fix anything, provide (hopefully) wise counsel, am an excellent protector and can still make her laugh. Big whoop. That describes millions of others, many of whom presumably do not have the general attitude and self-confidence issues an SM brings. In fact, I've become a bit of a pain always bringing it up, moreso in recent years. Empirically, I can see the latter part of your statement must be true - my wife does not truly care about my wants/needs. I just have a hard time accepting that truth. It wasn't always this way, but has been long enough that I couldn't really pinpoint when the change occurred. That implies things have been bad for her as well. Still, no effort to leave, change the dynamic or even initiate a conversation about any of this. That is left to me. That's because her effort is to endure being married to someone who is not her sexual partner, but who wants to be, and who feels he deserves to be. She may even agree that you deserve a sexual partner, but what she intellectually or morally thinks you deserve has nothing to do with how she actually feels about you. I think you've nailed it squarely when you say "things have been bad for her as well." Yes, they have - because she's also in a celibate marriage, and (like you) choosing the marriage or the benefits associated with a mutual belief that one exists, rather than choosing the alternative to that. So what she dreads at bedtime and when she wakes up is the question of how to survive another day of celibacy while her partner - whom she does not want - chases her or admonishes her, in addition to the celibacy. In her mind, she's a hero for sticking this out, and you are the villain who is risking throwing it all away and constantly testing her patience and endurance. Her effort isn't to leave. Her effort is to support her choice - which is to stay - albeit in a limbo of a dead bedroom due to not seeing you as a sexual partner. Your effort is toward having a marriage (which would include a unique mutual sexual attraction), and to move OUT of the dead bedroom. You cannot change the way she feels about you. Once you have done whatever most reasonable people pursue (imagine you are single again and have to date - and raise your game to whatever you would be capable of doing to make yourself appealing as a single man), there's nothing else left that you can do. The rest is on her.
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Post by bozodeclowne on Apr 22, 2020 15:05:47 GMT -5
Your statement also can be made to apply to the refused. Why not go out and establish a marriage or romantic relationship with someone who you desire and who desires you? What benefits of marriage keep you stuck in a sexless one? I considered this point, and decided to leave it out of my reply. I spent a lot of years trying to understand what was happening, why it was happening and what I might do to "fix" it. Whether that was a huge exercise in avoidance I cannot say, but I always held out hope that things would get better. It was difficult realizing my efforts were not having any effect, and in fact things were getting worse. I took that as a personal failure. I wasn't trying hard enough, wasn't good enough, etc. From there, it's a pretty short leap to feeling completely undesirable or unworthy of anyone's affection. Stopping that sort of thinking takes some doing in the midst of all the rejection, and it took me giving up the pursuit for some clarity to finally take hold. What benefits keep me in the marriage? It's only within a year or so that I actually started to think about it seriously, and there really isn't much. Take away any affection or physical relationship and what is left that is not typical housemate fodder?
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 22, 2020 16:53:12 GMT -5
Your statement also can be made to apply to the refused. Why not go out and establish a marriage or romantic relationship with someone who you desire and who desires you? What benefits of marriage keep you stuck in a sexless one? I considered this point, and decided to leave it out of my reply. I spent a lot of years trying to understand what was happening, why it was happening and what I might do to "fix" it. Whether that was a huge exercise in avoidance I cannot say, but I always held out hope that things would get better. It was difficult realizing my efforts were not having any effect, and in fact things were getting worse. I took that as a personal failure. I wasn't trying hard enough, wasn't good enough, etc. From there, it's a pretty short leap to feeling completely undesirable or unworthy of anyone's affection. Stopping that sort of thinking takes some doing in the midst of all the rejection, and it took me giving up the pursuit for some clarity to finally take hold. What benefits keep me in the marriage? It's only within a year or so that I actually started to think about it seriously, and there really isn't much. Take away any affection or physical relationship and what is left that is not typical housemate fodder? I'd have to dig back aways in an old post to find it,but here's the jist of it: Studies show that sex (cheating,or the lack of it) is the no 1. reason for divorce. Money, is a close second. In some polls it's the no. 1. reason. Money ( budget, finances, income) is a strong, powerful factor in giving one of the partners, strong control in the marriage. Once the pin is pulled on the grenade ( asking/demanding that your needs get met) most likely the refuser realizes the fake mask has been removed,and the battle for power and control is now at an all time new level. I remember my now ex's response several days after the sex request was shot down. " I will be keeping everything, you will get nothing. The kids, the houses, the money, you won't see a penny" ( fortunately the court was more in my favor)
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muzack
Junior Member
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Post by muzack on Apr 22, 2020 23:04:37 GMT -5
Great thread. My wife has been "making progress" for about ten year now. Her behaviors in the financial and anxiety areas have improved, but it's been s-l-o-w. Most of her new revelations are things that I remember discussing years ago. The last discussion I acknowledged her progress, but also pointed out that at the rate it's been going, I'll be 100 years old before we get to a 50-50 relationship. She says you can't hurry the process of understanding. That's the kind of maxim it's really pointless to argue.
I have been debating moving into the guest room for a long while. If we aren't intimate, our sleeping arrangements should reflect that. The reality is that is one of the few decisions I can make in the relationship. Maybe it speeds "progress", maybe it doesn't.
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Post by tirefire on Apr 23, 2020 16:07:31 GMT -5
Great thread. My wife has been "making progress" for about ten year now. Her behaviors in the financial and anxiety areas have improved, but it's been s-l-o-w. Most of her new revelations are things that I remember discussing years ago. The last discussion I acknowledged her progress, but also pointed out that at the rate it's been going, I'll be 100 years old before we get to a 50-50 relationship. She says you can't hurry the process of understanding. That's the kind of maxim it's really pointless to argue. I have been debating moving into the guest room for a long while. If we aren't intimate, our sleeping arrangements should reflect that. The reality is that is one of the few decisions I can make in the relationship. Maybe it speeds "progress", maybe it doesn't. Moving into the guest room is good progress. It will speed things. For you. It will help you in your journey by being a constant reminder that an important part of your marriage is missing. Keep track of the day you moved in there and keep remembering it. So use it for yourself.
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Post by carl on Apr 24, 2020 3:04:26 GMT -5
Apocrypha yes I agree this is a really great thread. Best thoughts I’ve read on sexless marriage situations. I think the idea of turning the time concept around to change the direction towards separation rather than investing deeper in a sexless marriage is crucial. I personally have strived for years to fix things but been broken by a wife who has the wrong approach to sex. She simply sees sex as a tool to get what she wants. I’ve never wanted a relationship like that but I am stuck. It was also really interesting how you see things from the refusers eyes in that life for them is about avoiding sex with a partner they don’t like sexually. I guess that must be horrible. Well I never ask or mention sex now and we haven’t had sex for maybe 18 months. She hasn’t objected at all. But as her husband I take care of my wife largely and although she isn’t lazy, she isn’t exactly hard working either. She benefits from my love and hard work quite significantly but sees this to be something as given as the day and the night. I have given myself to her and she has kept herself for herself. Although under these conditions I question the sense of loyalty , I do practice loyalty towards my wife out of respect for marriage, other people and a preference for sex to happen within marriage. So I think that a period of separation is a good direction to go. Maybe short periods building up. It’s amazing what can be achieved in small steps.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 24, 2020 5:03:58 GMT -5
That phrase / hypothesis seems to be part of the same "candles and date night" rap, though. Dysfunction was there before the celibacy, but sex happened anyway, right? (Except for those who "saved themselves", I guess.) What couple has zero dysfunction? Celibacy, I dare say, can cause dysfunction, or at the least aggravate it to the point of causing threats to the union At some point - sexual expression with that partner ends - for a reason. The reason might be known or might not be known, but there is a reason. Usually that reason is some form of dysfunction that has gone unresolved and reached a such a point of disconnection and aversion that a partner would sooner choose celibacy than have sex with a person who they don't see as a sexual partner any longer. ... Not talking about [dysfunctions] or not being self-aware enough to identify them is further dysfunction. Big enough to change the way one thinks about a partner or the relationship itself (with the result that they no longer qualify as a viable sexual partner). Fair enough, mostly. I would invoke the Coolidge Effect in suggesting that no reason at all is needed for sexual interest to wane/vanish other than biology. (which is, admittedly, a reason) That said, your comment made me think that psychological factors could surely affect such natural inclinations to reduce sexuality towards one's partner. An adverse behavior can interfere with harmonious feelings that encourage intimacy. The distancing, causes maladaptive behavior (grumpiness) which reduces emotional closeness which makes sex less appealing, in a vicious cycle/feedback loop. If natural cooling down causes the grumpiness, the grumpiness may be cited as "the reason", when nature was the unidentified saboteur. When we say there's a reason for declining intimacy, perhaps I erred in conflating actions or behavior with "reasons". Reasons encompass things we are not aware of. It may include reasons we don't wish to fight (with cerebral awareness of the Coolidge effect and efforts to counteract it by engaging one's partner assertively to nurture emotional closeness).
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 24, 2020 5:26:52 GMT -5
But, it takes control away from the refuser. It also exposes the fact that the only reason the relationship is stable is because the refuser is getting what they want and doesn't give a shit about what the refused wants. ...With few exceptions, the "benefits" any of us bring to a relationship aren't really unique. Why not go and find those things with someone you desire? I can fix anything, provide (hopefully) wise counsel, am an excellent protector and can still make her laugh. Big whoop. That describes millions of others, many of whom presumably do not have the general attitude and self-confidence issues an SM brings. In fact, I've become a bit of a pain always bringing it up, moreso in recent years. You are likely wrong, sir. I contemplated opening our marriage but wondered whether declaring my wishes to my wife would cause serious strife when I was delusional that sex was even available. I landed two dates without half trying, and what I read about online dating tells me I am a statistical outlier. Anecdotally, it's hard to land a date. The stories one hears are of one-word messages to the ladies, "Hey." and unsolicited photos of body parts. Your sense of humor is a potent weapon that apparently is in short supply. Your ability to put sentences together is evident. Communication skills are catnip. Your wife wants to stay with you despite having no (close to no?) sexual interest in you? As northstarmom alluded to, you speak of sexual attraction as a feature, not a bug and as csl observed, women may find the courtship process needed to land a man of your calibre is daunting, if not outright terrifying. Watch any female comic and they'll almost unanimously decry dating as a miserable necessity. If some women could skip over the frenzied lustfest that new couples enjoy and go straight to the warm, cozy, twice a month sex stage of a relationship, but could be assured their man would be high quality, how many would accept? Would a few want in if it meant another sexless marriage, with a man not quite as fed up as you? Would others leave their spouse in a heartbeat if they knew they could land a similar fella who was equally happy with sexlessness and they could live the lives they enjoy with no harassment/guilt? I do not know, but to trade in stability with a good man for pot luck? There's a reason that women "reset" in the face of a credible threat of dissolution. Their prospects aren't necessarily good, and they may consider the quest for a new man to be about as appealing as root canal. An experience they dread more than sex with an unexciting spouse.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 24, 2020 9:41:21 GMT -5
At some point - sexual expression with that partner ends - for a reason. The reason might be known or might not be known, but there is a reason. Usually that reason is some form of dysfunction that has gone unresolved and reached a such a point of disconnection and aversion that a partner would sooner choose celibacy than have sex with a person who they don't see as a sexual partner any longer. ... Not talking about [dysfunctions] or not being self-aware enough to identify them is further dysfunction. Big enough to change the way one thinks about a partner or the relationship itself (with the result that they no longer qualify as a viable sexual partner). I would invoke the Coolidge Effect in suggesting that no reason at all is needed for sexual interest to wane/vanish other than biology. (which is, admittedly, a reason) That said, your comment made me think that psychological factors could surely affect such natural inclinations to reduce sexuality towards one's partner. An adverse behavior can interfere with harmonious feelings that encourage intimacy. The distancing, causes maladaptive behavior (grumpiness) which reduces emotional closeness which makes sex less appealing, in a vicious cycle/feedback loop. If natural cooling down causes the grumpiness, the grumpiness may be cited as "the reason", when nature was the unidentified saboteur. When we say there's a reason for declining intimacy, perhaps I erred in conflating actions or behavior with "reasons". Reasons encompass things we are not aware of. It may include reasons we don't wish to fight (with cerebral awareness of the Coolidge effect and efforts to counteract it by engaging one's partner assertively to nurture emotional closeness). Here's what I'm basing my hypothesis on, mirrororchid: 1. a celibate wife - mine - who had an affair 2. upon my asking for a separation eventually, her pitching an open relationship that I agreed to conditionally, in which suddenly her robust sexual life flourished in a way that resembled Penthouse Letters, and then died again - but with me only 3. a separation, again - this time for real - in which we agreed to wait on finding other partners until we could at least move apart, which she immediately reversed on, literally the day after we agreed to it, and made sure I found this information out 4. In the subsequent 6-7 years I've spent single, I've met dozens and dated and been in fulsome sexually adventurous relationships with women who thought, in their marriage, that they had become frigid, but who eventually realized they had grown resentful of their partners or of marriage in general - such that they felt trapped. 5. reading my wife's wedding speech again, and realizing that - with her tone and context removed - she obviously had not intended to ever get married, had significant unresolved reservations about it and about me - and had never truly raised them. In the case of "You aren't the kind of person I see as a sexual partner" - among my friends and lovers in this situation, I've usually found an answer after rummaging through the sometimes distant past. I have one friend in this situation in which her husband ditched the bedroom. They married young and she contracted an STD when he returned from a trip. She had three young children at the time and she accepted his obviously lame and dismissive excuse - being conflict-avoidant an not in a good position to call the game there. But a disconnection and resentment festered on her end, and guilt on his end. HE ditched first (btw, she's a stunningly beautiful woman), and eventually the resentment was mutual. They both never dealt with their disconnections, preferring stoicism, dismissal, and passive aggression as a pattern. Eventually in all those kinds of situations, it is no longer "I hate what you do." but rather "You are not the kind of person I see as a sexual partner." Sometimes a fight or a disconnection or a surprise is so great - like finding out about an affair, or being mean to your child - that it becomes incorporated into your sense of who that person is or what they are capable of - and it fundamentally rewrites who you thought they were, as a person. We know people like this all the time - I have relatives for example who are fundamentalist religious, and who would shoot their dog if it misbehaved. But they are warm good people aside from that - charitable and sincere. I can understand their point of view and perspective (as farmers), but I don't think I would choose people like that as being intimately or romantically compatible. There's also the case of "I never wanted to be married," irrespective of wonderful person they might marry. That's likely a case of "It's me, not you." I wonder sometimes if the traditional nature of surprise proposals makes this a lopsided matter, in which women have to immediately and often publicly declare a yes/no answer on something that might not be a cut an dried affair, and risk humiliating the person they love and immediately ending their relationship. In both cases, sexual intimacy (and usually other kinds, less noticeable upstream) - ends, because it is felt as a tacit endorsement and expression of closeness - when the feeling is an overwhelming sense of aversion or hopelessness and feeling trapped. It would be like having sex with the prison guard - the face of the person who has you trapped here. I think the "Coolidge Effect" is a tale people use to convince themselves of the futility of acting to resolve an unsatisfying relationship lifestyle, because it would be equally unhappy with someone else, and inevitable. Based on my personal experience in marriage, and based on encountering literally dozens of women who thought they were frigid but later found themselves to be adventurously and robustly sexual (once outside of their primary relationship), I'd say that's largely overblown.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 24, 2020 9:57:41 GMT -5
Great thread. My wife has been "making progress" for about ten year now. Her behaviors in the financial and anxiety areas have improved, but it's been s-l-o-w. Most of her new revelations are things that I remember discussing years ago. The last discussion I acknowledged her progress, but also pointed out that at the rate it's been going, I'll be 100 years old before we get to a 50-50 relationship. She says you can't hurry the process of understanding. That's the kind of maxim it's really pointless to argue. I have been debating moving into the guest room for a long while. If we aren't intimate, our sleeping arrangements should reflect that. The reality is that is one of the few decisions I can make in the relationship. Maybe it speeds "progress", maybe it doesn't In the dating world, from a cold start with a stranger in most normal relationships - the maxim is that it takes between 3-5 dates before a new couple becomes intimate. There are certainly outliers on that. But, about 3-5 dates - anything longer than that and most people seem to cut bait and suggest "you really need to date someone you are into" My own decision to move out of the marital bed was really helpful in re-centering myself. I found I was intensely anxious each night about bedtime and the uncertainty (the reality was 300:1 - very certain - but I didn't want to risk missing my window). If I awoke in the middle of the night, my rational thinking was down, and so I faced constant nightly rejection. I had terrible sleep, and also avoided "taking care of my self" in case I had an opportunity with her, so I was in a constant state of frustration. I awoke resentful, and half the time spent the night staring at her. Making a spare bed - setting myself up comfortably, I gradually spent more time there and found that I slept better and felt more - honest - about what I was dealing with. I felt the bedroom situation was a more authentic representation to each other of the state of the relationship. It felt more real.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 24, 2020 10:02:53 GMT -5
spocrypha said: "When I encounter a person who claims to have been married and celibate for that long, I take it as a red flag that they may also be averse to intimacy or not care about it much. In a similar way, I look at prospects who have been in long term long distance relationships as potentially averse to intimacy."
I agree. My own intimacy problems certainly allowed me to be sexless for at least 15 years of my 34-year marriage. It wasn't until I'd spent a lot of time addressing and resolving my own intimacy issues that I was able to leave the marriage. I'm now 7 years into a sexually and emotionally intimate relationship that never would have occurred if I hadn't resolved my own intimacy issues and chosen to be with a man who also had resolved his own intimacy issues. This, incidentally, is why it's a bad idea for people coming out of sexless marriages to deliberately seek partners with similar experiences. Unless both have resolved their own intimacy issues, that's likely recipe for disaster. Someone else can't fix you. That's especially true if the someone else has the same unresolved issues. (It's different if people from sexless marriages get involved when they are individually working hard on resolving their own intimacy issues, and aren't maintaining those efforts due to being in a new relationship. Shammy and Baz here are examples of people who successfully did that.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 24, 2020 10:13:08 GMT -5
bozodeclowne said: "But what is it that they are really getting? With few exceptions, the "benefits" any of us bring to a relationship aren't really unique. Why not go and find those things with someone you desire? I can fix anything, provide (hopefully) wise counsel, am an excellent protector and can still make her laugh. Big whoop. That describes millions of others, many of whom presumably do not have the general attitude and self-confidence issues an SM brings. In fact, I've become a bit of a pain always bringing it up, moreso in recent years."
You seem to think it's easy for women to find partners with the attributes you describe. While millions of men may have those attributes, there are many other things that go into compatibility for a marriage or longterm relationship. Even if the woman doesn't want to have sex with the man, she still has to find him not hard on her eyes. She has to enjoy being in his company. HIs finances, age, weight, even smell, friends, interests, values all would be important. And he would have to be attracted to her and want to spend lots of time in her company! For a long term partnership or marriage, he'd have to be willing to be with her (including financially) in sickness and health. Sexual and other types of compatibility also would be important as would interest, values and family considerations.
This is why for many men and women in sexless marriages, it seems far easier to stay in their current marriage than to risk being alone or finding an even worse partner.
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muzack
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by muzack on Apr 24, 2020 15:45:43 GMT -5
My own decision to move out of the marital bed was really helpful in re-centering myself. I found I was intensely anxious each night about bedtime and the uncertainty (the reality was 300:1 - very certain - but I didn't want to risk missing my window). If I awoke in the middle of the night, my rational thinking was down, and so I faced constant nightly rejection. I had terrible sleep, and also avoided "taking care of my self" in case I had an opportunity with her, so I was in a constant state of frustration. I awoke resentful, and half the time spent the night staring at her. Making a spare bed - setting myself up comfortably, I gradually spent more time there and found that I slept better and felt more - honest - about what I was dealing with. I felt the bedroom situation was a more authentic representation to each other of the state of the relationship. It felt more real. 300:1 sounds about right. About a year ago I made the decision that >99% chance of getting rejected and feeling bad made me feel worse on average than the twice a year chance of sex. Add in that 3/4 of the time the sex was "Are you done yet. What's wrong?" starfish sex instead of true intimacy and it made logical sense to quit initiating. One year telling myself not to initiate because I will only feel worse seems to have created a "Fake it until you make it" situation. I'm not even thinking about initiating. On a mental level I want the intimacy, but on a physical level the desire is suppressed I guess. Your statements about feeling honest/ authentic are very similar to how I've been feeling. I want our sleeping arrangements to accurately reflect our relationship. It feels like putting on an act otherwise.
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