dbflma
Junior Member
Posts: 35
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Post by dbflma on Apr 9, 2020 7:47:18 GMT -5
mirrororchid I think you've confused me with flashjohn who's with someone 8 years younger and looks 30-35. The woman that I've been seeing is 5 years younger although I don't think that just because someone's younger they are more appropriate for me. Age is just a number and she could be 5 years older and it wouldn't make a difference to me. What does make a difference is how connected I feel when I'm with her. Of course sex is an important part of this connection and because she's comfortable with her own sexuality and being able to express it with me and I can express myself with her, this part of our relationship is strong and I can see would have great potential to be fulfilling for both of us. I value commitment and there are so many other aspects of a relationship besides sex that is important to me. It's why I struggle with the decision of whether or not to seek a divorce or give up my AP and try working on sexual intimacy with my wife despite the fact that I struggle with desiring her. Again, my wife says she wants to work on this with me and is willing as long as it's something that I want also. Because sex/passion between the two of us has really never been there, I question that love alone is enough to cultivate the desire that I want/need to truly feel fulfilled. The question I have to ask myself is, do I have the energy to continue to work on this with my wife or do I simply need to lovingly let her go because we've gone as far as we can with our relationship?
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 9, 2020 10:36:42 GMT -5
I'm turned off by her body [...] So, what happens next? What changes all of this? In this circumstance - you are turned off by her body. You are likely going to take some pious heat on this issue from people who wish to take a view of "having preferences". I'm of the view that people have a type, and if that type is known and I go into a relationship, it's my responsibility to keep myself within it. You cannot change her body. You cannot really change your preferences either - they are what they are. The extra frustration in this situation comes from knowing that one's body is completely changeable, and that there is a strong possibility that when faced with devastating consequences - such as a divorce and a life of singledom while not looking or feeling one's best - that this may be the only motivation that causes someone to take one's own responsibilities seriously in a marriage. The same might be true of any number of things, including an affair. There are lots of people who commonly talk about "risking" by engaging in an affair as a coping mechanism for the marriage. This framing poses the cheating partner as the hero, with the affair as a solution. I think an affair is like paying one credit card debt with another credit card. It adds complexity and feels like relief, but the there is likely to be a reckoning that happens at an inopportune time, and with the least possible grace. What's more, it promotes the continuance "as is" of the existing lifestyle (the marriage), with the supposed stakes and consequences deferred and hidden from the person who might change approach of their solution if they only knew the cost. It's a reason I've posed "the middle way" - setting a deadline on either separation and/or an open relationship (not "asking") prior to engaging in an affair. It's certainly not because I think affairs or open relationships are great ideas (particularly in dysfunctional deals). Rather, it's because it sets a consequence for inaction that both parties agree is significant, and in which both parties can negotiate their level of involvement - UP FRONT and DURING - rather than after it's done and the house has burned down. It means the consequence of doing nothing to change is no longer default celibacy - which changes the whole game. It means she now has to make an argument that doesn't just pose whether she's up for sex, but rather, whether YOU should remain celibate. And that leads to a discussion about what even IS the marriage - which it sounds like you are wrestling with alone or independently now.
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Post by saarinista on Apr 11, 2020 2:39:17 GMT -5
mirrororchid I think you've confused me with flashjohn who's with someone 8 years younger and looks 30-35. The woman that I've been seeing is 5 years younger although I don't think that just because someone's younger they are more appropriate for me. Age is just a number and she could be 5 years older and it wouldn't make a difference to me. What does make a difference is how connected I feel when I'm with her. Of course sex is an important part of this connection and because she's comfortable with her own sexuality and being able to express it with me and I can express myself with her, this part of our relationship is strong and I can see would have great potential to be fulfilling for both of us. I value commitment and there are so many other aspects of a relationship besides sex that is important to me. It's why I struggle with the decision of whether or not to seek a divorce or give up my AP and try working on sexual intimacy with my wife despite the fact that I struggle with desiring her. Again, my wife says she wants to work on this with me and is willing as long as it's something that I want also. Because sex/passion between the two of us has really never been there, I question that love alone is enough to cultivate the desire that I want/need to truly feel fulfilled. The question I have to ask myself is, do I have the energy to continue to work on this with my wife or do I simply need to lovingly let her go because we've gone as far as we can with our relationship? Please, reread your posts. It seems to me that you are trying to decide whether to A.) stay in the marriage and work one more time to "bring back" something (sexual passion) that you say never really existed on YOUR part,let alone hers Or B.)Accept that your marriage to your wife will never be sexual, and recommit yourself to forsaking all others for the rest of your life to preserve the committed business and parenting partnership that you have built. Honestly, I think you know what the answer is, but you are hoping to avoid a split, as we all do. In the end, perhaps an open marriage would work for you. Perhaps not. Maybe you need to divorce and be single for a while, or maybe your AP is the one for you. But at least you should be honest about the fact that you really don't have a sexual marriage to save. It was never really sexual to begin with. You can't "resurrect" what never existed-not even on Easter.😔
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dbflma
Junior Member
Posts: 35
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Post by dbflma on Apr 11, 2020 18:24:23 GMT -5
Thank you for your post saarinista. There's no doubt that I'm struggling with the fact that I don't have a sexual marriage to save. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for me. I think that my wife telling me she "feels sexual" and wants to work at this part of our relationship keeps me from throwing in the towel. She's willing to work at this and I do believe she's not just saying it to try and sucker me into staying. But I look at our history and feel discouraged and think what you mentioned: You can't "resurrect" what never existed-not even on Easter.
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Post by saarinista on Apr 11, 2020 19:11:49 GMT -5
Thank you for your post saarinista. There's no doubt that I'm struggling with the fact that I don't have a sexual marriage to save. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for me. I think that my wife telling me she "feels sexual" and wants to work at this part of our relationship keeps me from throwing in the towel. She's willing to work at this and I do believe she's not just saying it to try and sucker me into staying. But I look at our history and feel discouraged and think what you mentioned: You can't "resurrect" what never existed-not even on Easter. Talk is cheap. I think your wife just doesn't want a divorce. Your history is indeed discouraging.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 14, 2020 9:05:40 GMT -5
Thank you for your post saarinista . There's no doubt that I'm struggling with the fact that I don't have a sexual marriage to save. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for me. I think that my wife telling me she "feels sexual" and wants to work at this part of our relationship keeps me from throwing in the towel. She's willing to work at this and I do believe she's not just saying it to try and sucker me into staying. But I look at our history and feel discouraged and think what you mentioned: You can't "resurrect" what never existed-not even on Easter" "feels sexual" - but doesn't have sex with you. 1. Is she lying? 2. Is she misinformed, as in, unaware that (relative to others in your culture), that she actually has a lot of hangups? 3. Does she indeed feel sexual, but not with you? Is any of this important if you are not attracted to her? What's the middle ground you are shooting for there? Is it to "make oneself available for the sexual release of a partner who isn't attracted to you, and you not to them? There may be different views of this, but mine is that sexual attraction to another person isn't really something you "work on". If I'm straight, how would I "work on" being attracted to men? How would I "work on" being attracted to women who I dislike personally? How would I "work on" being attracted to body types that are not my preference? If, as you indicate, there has never been a mutual attraction, then perhaps you can both benefit from shifting the topic of conversation from the two of you, to instead talk about what a marriage is - and see if you both agree on that. I suspect you will, actually. Be specific - how does marriage differ in form and intention from that of "amicable ex-spouses" or "co-parents"? What does marriage bring to the table that other relationship forms don't? Once you have decided what a marriage is, THEN discuss whether you two have that. Could you both picture yourself standing on an altar in front of your friends and family and commit to your present deal? Suppose you were single and you both met to start dating? Would you have a second date - either of you?
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dbflma
Junior Member
Posts: 35
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Post by dbflma on Apr 14, 2020 13:49:05 GMT -5
I don't know if my wife's lying or if she really believes she's "sexual" as she states. I think women are able to fake it much more than a man so how would I really know if she's at least willing to try Apocrypha . She readily admits that she has some hangups but they consist of broad and innocuous statements that "I have a low libido", "I need certain things to get aroused", "I need lubrication if we were to have intercourse", etc. etc. There is a mutual attraction. I just don't believe there's much of a mutual sexual attraction. If I were dating her now this is something that would preclude a second or third date because I know how important it is and wouldn't want to go through this much pain again. The real question is, despite the historic lack of passion for one another, is it possible to cultivate it based on the fact that we both do love one another. The link below really hit home when I read it. Probably best explains my situation. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/21/we-were-married-but-there-was-no-sexual-attraction
The main difference between the couple in this article and my wife and I is that my wife will not admit that she's not attracted to me sexually.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 14, 2020 17:51:19 GMT -5
“ The main difference between the couple in this article and my wife and I is that my wife will not admit that she's not attracted to me sexually.”
She knows if she admitted the truth the marriage would be over. Meanwhile, her actions are speaking for her. You are refusing to listen.
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dbflma
Junior Member
Posts: 35
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Post by dbflma on Apr 14, 2020 19:51:11 GMT -5
I'm going to save your quote northstarmom and put it somewhere I can see it everyday. Like a pop-up on my calendar. All the signs are there and I know the answer. I just haven't had the courage to go further.
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Post by baza on Apr 14, 2020 20:15:35 GMT -5
I'm going to save your quote northstarmom and put it somewhere I can see it everyday. Like a pop-up on my calendar. All the signs are there and I know the answer. I just haven't had the courage to go further. Whilst you are engaging in the internal debate of staying/cheating/leaving, you could also be doing some prep work, like - - consulting a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish how a divorce would shake out for you - within those legal constraints, start putting your exit strategy together, and how you are going to conduct yourself as a single person - shoring up your support network so you've got some close confidantes to help you through the disruption - figuring out how you'll help your kids (if any) through such a process. Getting yourself fully informed in other words. Then, when the answer to the stay/cheat/leave choice emerges for you, you'll be prepared. And when preparedness meets opportunity, big things can happen.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 14, 2020 23:13:32 GMT -5
I don't know if my wife's lying or if she really believes she's "sexual" as she states. I think women are able to fake it much more than a man so how would I really know if she's at least willing to try Apocrypha . She readily admits that she has some hangups but they consist of broad and innocuous statements that "I have a low libido", "I need certain things to get aroused", "I need lubrication if we were to have intercourse", etc. etc. There is a mutual attraction. I just don't believe there's much of a mutual sexual attraction. If I were dating her now this is something that would preclude a second or third date because I know how important it is and wouldn't want to go through this much pain again. The real question is, despite the historic lack of passion for one another, is it possible to cultivate it based on the fact that we both do love one another. The link below really hit home when I read it. Probably best explains my situation. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/21/we-were-married-but-there-was-no-sexual-attraction
The main difference between the couple in this article and my wife and I is that my wife will not admit that she's not attracted to me sexually.
Refusing a second date with someone because there is no attraction present makes perfect sense in the singles world -- because there is no attraction. Or not enough of one to sustain beyond a day of feeling especially horny (and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anyone else in particular). It doesn't have to be about going through that much pain again. Rather, it simply makes perfect, intact sense on it's own that one does not engage in a romantic relationship with someone with whom you don't have a shared unique attraction. I'm not clear on what you mean by "there is a mutual attraction". It sounded to me like you said you were not attracted to her. And it appears that despite "being sexual" and with this topic centered in your view - with a lot at stake - there's no actual sex happening. As in, you don't qualify as a sexual partner in her books. So with that all on the table, what does marriage bring to the table, when it's to someone with whom you don't share an attraction? I totally get that you can love someone or each other, but not all the people you love in your life include sexuality. You don't get married to everyone you love. It sound like in this case, you wouldn't even have a second date. What would the ideal divorce look like for the two of you, that would allow you to have what you enjoy about each other?
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dbflma
Junior Member
Posts: 35
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Post by dbflma on Apr 15, 2020 8:57:59 GMT -5
What I mean by mutual attraction Apocrypha is that we find each other handsome/pretty. We just seem to lack sexual attraction/desire for one another. What marriage brings to the table right now for me is keeping the family core and our financial position the same. I fear the same that everyone else does when contemplating divorce and that's the break-up of the family unit as I've known it and losing at least half of what I've earned over the years. It's a matter of weighing out how important it is for me to continue as is or to forgo what I just mentioned and hoping that finding love/intimacy with someone else will be worth the loss that divorce brings. I guess the ideal divorce would be an equally amicable one where we both could simply be friends without feeling awkward around one another. Either way my concern has always been just making sure that I've done all I could to make sure that it's in my best interest long-term to divorce.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 15, 2020 9:55:59 GMT -5
“ What I mean by mutual attraction apocrypha is that we find each other handsome/pretty. We just seem to lack sexual attraction/desire for one another.”
I find lots of people attractive but wouldn’t want to fuck them.
Some of my best sexual experiences were with a man I never thought was attractive. But I found him extremely sexy and the sex was super hot.
I’ve read that pheromones have a lot to do with sexual chemistry. This is beyond one’s control, I thought post sm lover was a nice guy worthy of the friend zone. Then we kissed and my panties got wet. That’s sexual chemistry. Seven years together now and still happily fucking..
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 15, 2020 13:51:15 GMT -5
What I mean by mutual attraction Apocrypha is that we find each other handsome/pretty. We just seem to lack sexual attraction/desire for one another. What marriage brings to the table right now for me is keeping the family core and our financial position the same. I fear the same that everyone else does when contemplating divorce and that's the break-up of the family unit as I've known it and losing at least half of what I've earned over the years. It's a matter of weighing out how important it is for me to continue as is or to forgo what I just mentioned and hoping that finding love/intimacy with someone else will be worth the loss that divorce brings. I guess the ideal divorce would be an equally amicable one where we both could simply be friends without feeling awkward around one another. Either way my concern has always been just making sure that I've done all I could to make sure that it's in my best interest long-term to divorce. I often like to qualify the relationship attraction as a unique sexual attraction. What I mean by that is that I find that person not just to have objectively appealing attributes in general - but rather, that I specifically am attracted to her (I'd pick her out of a crowd), because she is attractive to me. I notice her - possibly as a mix of context, her movements, manner, character, physical traits etc. I distinguish her from, say, a blandly attractive department store catalogue model, in that when I see her, I want to be closer. Now that I'm 6 or 7 years separated from my ex-wife, my one-time overwhelming and devastating unrequited unique sexual attraction to her has now faded to the point that I see her as a fairly normal person, where the idea of touching her would seem awkward an inappropriate somehow. I no longer have a unique sexual attraction to her, though I can acknowledge that she is appealing physically. I'm not sure that I'd pick her out of a crowd though, or that she'd turn my head on a street, like when I was into her. You've mentioned that marriage brings the family core and a stable financial position. I'm in a "relatively" amicable and cooperative long term separated co-parenting situation with my ex wife, which, for certain reasons - remains comingled financially. It has its challenges, but I can say that we have so far maintained a great deal of what you have described while being separated for 6-7 years now. So, marriage isn't bringing that. You are describing a household, not a marriage, IMO. Granted, there are many factors to consider in a divorce, and had things been different, it's possible things might have gone differently. So far, it's been good enough.
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Post by baza on Apr 15, 2020 18:31:44 GMT -5
What I mean by mutual attraction Apocrypha is that we find each other handsome/pretty. We just seem to lack sexual attraction/desire for one another. What marriage brings to the table right now for me is keeping the family core and our financial position the same. I fear the same that everyone else does when contemplating divorce and that's the break-up of the family unit as I've known it and losing at least half of what I've earned over the years. It's a matter of weighing out how important it is for me to continue as is or to forgo what I just mentioned and hoping that finding love/intimacy with someone else will be worth the loss that divorce brings. I guess the ideal divorce would be an equally amicable one where we both could simply be friends without feeling awkward around one another. Either way my concern has always been just making sure that I've done all I could to make sure that it's in my best interest long-term to divorce. This is a slight sidebar Brother dbflma , concerning this bit in your post - ".... and losing at least half of what I've earned over the years".In a no fault jurisdiction the divisible assets of the two spouses are split 50/50. It is NOT a matter of you giving her half YOUR money at your discretion (or her giving you half HER money). The money is NOT "yours" alone - nor is it "hers" - but is rather "yours and hers" and you are each entitled to half. The sooner you can get past the mindset that all the money is "yours", the better. It isn't "all yours", and never was. The divisible assets you've both accrued over the course of the marriage belong to you both in equal share .... if you are in a no fault jurisdiction.
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