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Post by saarinista on Apr 3, 2020 15:14:28 GMT -5
Thanks for your post mirrororchid ! I believe that my AP is "marriage material". I would not be with her if this was just about a fling or casual sex. However, that being said, I'm not ready to remarry and she may not even be who I end up with in the long run. She's an incredible person and someone I have certainly connected with on all levels; however, I'm also aware that I'm not just going to marry her because I'm grateful for what she's shown me. I truly believe that we've helped each other as she always reminds me that no one has ever made her feel as loved and cared for as I have. I genuinely do love her and care for her and treat her better than anyone she's been with in past relationships. I know she wants to spend the rest of her life with me. If there comes a time when I don't feel the same, I would just have to be honest with her and let her go. As for creating a dating profile and just getting out there to explore, I'm very comfortable and confident I could do that. When you say your wife reset in December and dating has been on hold, what do you mean?? Please, do your AP a favor. Be VERY HONEST with her that you MAY NOT want to marry her. In fact, it sounds to me like maybe you HAVE somewhat decided that you'd like to play the field if you do divorce, prior to perhaps remarrying. If you feel comfortable about creating a dating profile and getting out there again, what does that imply? Perhaps this would be a good time to really think about that idea. If you decide that's what you WOULD like to do for certain, again, please don't give your AP false hope. Sidebar: dating in the age of COVID 19 sounds like a real challenge! Gah. 🤦♀️😱
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dbflma
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Post by dbflma on Apr 3, 2020 15:56:52 GMT -5
saarinista I didn't mean to imply that I was planning on playing the field or that I may not want to marry my AP. I believe she is someone that I feel strongly enough about to marry; however, I'm still married and there certainly needs to be a period of time when I'm free from the marriage and fully available to be with my AP. Her feelings towards me may change and my feelings towards her may change. I don't think they will, but there's always that possibility. My response to mirrororchid was simply that if need be, I'm not afraid to be single and available. It would be great if I never have to do that as I do love my AP, but if I had to, then I would be capable of handling it.
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Post by flashjohn on Apr 3, 2020 15:59:01 GMT -5
She said in order for her to be sexual she needs to know that I'm "into her" and "into the relationship long term". So, because I've expressed my concerns and have shown signs that I have one foot out the door, she said she doesn't feel like she wants to be sexual with me. So there's the catch-22. I need to be into her and into the relationship in order for her to supposedly feel sexual towards me even though she never really had been sexual throughout our marriage. My ap is very sexual and doesn't require that the stars align in order to want to be intimate with me. I know it's different because we are new to one another, but I can't help feeling that if I let my ap go, I'm missing out on the opportunity to be with someone that meets all my needs and not just most of them.
Well, I think I can provide you with some insight. I am 55, and I felt very similar to you back in the first part of 2016. I had not had sex with my ExRefuser in 5.5 years, and she had told me that I had to be happy and fulfilled in a marriage that never included sex. I had two kids that were grown, including one in college, and I was terrified that they would hate me forever if I divorced their mom after being married for 28 years. I finally had enough & left. It was very hard at first, and the divorce took almost 3 years to finalize, but it was worth it. While we were separated, she told me that if I moved back in with her and put my ring back on she MIGHT feel like being sexual. Does this sound familar?
When it became very clear that my ExRefuser was never going to change, I met someone else. We are now married. She is 8 years younger than me, but looks about 30-35, is drop dead gorgeous, and absolutely loves me. She wants to fuck me every chance she gets, and says that I am the most wonderful man she has ever met. My daughters really like her, and they get along really well. My older daughter and her husband have a one bedroom apartment just so she won't be able to move in with them. My younger daughter will not speak to her at all.
Looking back, I realize something that never would have occurred to me. My ExW was not a good wife, and she did not love me. I spent years wracking my brain trying to figure out how she could treat someone she loved the way she treated me. I now realize she couldn't. I believe that your W is the same. If she loved you, she would have figured out how to resolve whatever problem is stopping her from fucking you, and resolved it. She is not going to change, she is counting on your fears to keep you with her.
I am now kicking myself for losing 3 decades of my life with a woman who did not love me. It was a good decision to wait until my kids were grown to avoid custody and child support, but I should have left her when she refused to fuck on the wedding night. Now that I am out, I realize just how horribly I was treated, and I am ashamed that I let her treat me that way.
Now,
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dbflma
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Post by dbflma on Apr 4, 2020 9:30:31 GMT -5
Thanks for your post flashjohn! I hear what you're saying yet I always seem to default back to "what if the problem is just me" or "what if I haven't done enough to cultivate her desire for me". Sometimes I think the answer is to work harder at our relationship and for us to go see someone that specializes in relationships like ours. You say, "when it became very clear that my ExRefuser was never going to change". What got you to that realization? My wife says all the right things. She says she's not gay or asexual and feels like a sexual person. She does not want the relationship to end. She's willing to work on herself and work on therapy as a couple. Sometimes I feel she's right and that I'm just giving up because I've met someone else that is not only sexual but has become my best friend. Sometimes I think that if I could just let my AP go then I'd be able to work on the lack of intimacy in my marriage. How does someone know that they've done all they can and that it's time to just end the marriage?
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Post by saarinista on Apr 5, 2020 15:21:06 GMT -5
saarinista I didn't mean to imply that I was planning on playing the field or that I may not want to marry my AP. I believe she is someone that I feel strongly enough about to marry; however, I'm still married and there certainly needs to be a period of time when I'm free from the marriage and fully available to be with my AP. Her feelings towards me may change and my feelings towards her may change. I don't think they will, but there's always that possibility. My response to mirrororchid was simply that if need be, I'm not afraid to be single and available. It would be great if I never have to do that as I do love my AP, but if I had to, then I would be capable of handling it. Those are very reasonable views, IMHO. I'm only suggesting that you tell her that's exactly how you feel about the future,if you haven't already. Perhaps you have, and if so, there will be no surprises for either of you.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 6, 2020 9:20:36 GMT -5
Thanks for your post flashjohn ! I hear what you're saying yet I always seem to default back to "what if the problem is just me" or "what if I haven't done enough to cultivate her desire for me". Sometimes I think the answer is to work harder at our relationship and for us to go see someone that specializes in relationships like ours. You say, "when it became very clear that my ExRefuser was never going to change". What got you to that realization? My wife says all the right things. She says she's not gay or asexual and feels like a sexual person. She does not want the relationship to end. She's willing to work on herself and work on therapy as a couple. Sometimes I feel she's right and that I'm just giving up because I've met someone else that is not only sexual but has become my best friend. Sometimes I think that if I could just let my AP go then I'd be able to work on the lack of intimacy in my marriage. How does someone know that they've done all they can and that it's time to just end the marriage? I asked these exact questions of the board when I was still in it. I'm not sure a person can actually be told, but here's my shot at answering your "How do I know?" and "What if it is me?" questions. "What if it is me?"You will always have room for improvement. You can be more fit, dress better, be more rich, more engaging, a better cook, more handsome, smarter, humble, etc. This is not encouragement in this context - it's simply a fact of human existence. As such, you will NEVER run out of reasons to think you can be better than you are. I by the time it's gone celibate and people seek guidance, they have already taken a swing at improving the things that have at least made them less attractive than the version of themselves their spouse married. A rule of thumb for me when I was married, was, I considered my prospects as a single man and what I felt I thought I would do to be attractive on the singles market. I chose to do those things. What I realized was that I fell well into the zone of being attractive to desirable women, but that I was still not attractive to my wife, who I had done MUCH more for. So, summarizing here: self-improvement - being an interesting and attractive person, with his own interests, views, social life, activities, style etc - that's objectively a good thing and will help you feel great about yourself and confident that you've posed an opportunity to rejoin you again. It will open doors in the future, and you are likely to do all those things anyway following a separation - so starting early is never wrong. But don't do it for her, or to make something happen. "How do I know?"This might be a fine mince, but I take from the way you have written this, that you are still framing this as a sexual dysfunction on your wife's part - almost like a medical problem. It's not that your wife is "going to change" - her not wanting sex with you is not an error of biology. She's already told you she's not gay and feels like a sexual person. She feels like a sexual person. She knows this enough to tell you this - it means she has at least an inner sexual imagination - one that involves other men. It does not involve you. If you both agreed to separate, do you think that's the end of sex for her? How long before you see her dating profile up next to yours on OK Cupid? (in mine, it was literally the next day). When confronted, she said she was looking forward to finding her sexuality again and exploring a rich sexual life. Ouch. There are lots of people in this world who you don't want to have sex with - people you like, even love, and people who you don't know. Your not wanting to have sex with them isn't an indication of sexual dysfunction on your part. The only dysfunctional part, is the shared expectation that you should want sex with them. It sounds like you've cooked the dinner, lit the candles, popped the bubbly, set her place at the table, and called her to come down from upstairs. She's telling you she's coming, or that she wants to, but isn't walking down the stairs to join you. Rather than that, she's doing everything else and making a huge production. From your standpoint, does it strike you that all of that business is actually much more effort with less risk than simply having a sexual life with you? At some point, you need to look at how far you've come with the effort expended, and how far she's come with the effort she's expended. And if it takes an enormous effort for a person who claims to be a sexual person - to enjoy a sexual life with you - then that tells you - at the very least - what's going to happen next. I'm not even sure if that's better than if she spent no effort at all. If you would like an example of what "the moment" looked like when things irreversibly changed for me - when my decision became clear and I actually, seriously, said we were separating (and I did not care what her verbal answer was), it was following a "save the marriage" resort vacation, we tried a simple family weekend away at a motor hotel with a family activity. We were having an informal lunch in the off-season restaurant, and an older couple - maybe skirting 55/60 years old - were in the large restaurant, seated a few tables away. She switched to sit on the same side of the table for lunch. They both were dressed casually, but had taken some trouble - makeup, a gold chain, clothes that fit. They were touching unnecessarily and I could see kindness and affection demonstrated between them openly. It looked sexy and loving. I looked back at my wife, seated at maximum distance - miserable - after two back to back vacations made to order for her. I realized that it wasn't a question of how much I did to please her - her goal was to demonstrate and validate her rejection of me as a partner. This could be demonstrated on a beach in Cuba, or on Valentine's Day at dinner, or in bed, or at lunch on a casual weekend up north with the kids. She was good with the kids, actually, - but on our best day - we'd never come close to what this older couple was doing without even trying. The acceptance and understanding of this rolled over me - and I literally could not stop tears from slowly dripping from my eyes on the entire 3 hour drive home (even though it did not feel like I was crying and I was not sobbing). It was just this massive realization of the distance and impossibility of leaping that gap. I looked instead to what she DID rather than what she SAID.
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dbflma
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Post by dbflma on Apr 6, 2020 11:03:28 GMT -5
Thank you Apocrypha for you insightful comments and understanding of my specific plight. I am starting to understand more and more that it's me that is not attracted to my wife. At the beginning when we were in our late teens/early 20's sex was okay but not great. I've known from the beginning that we didn't have much passion for one another sexually. I'm turned off by her body, something that I've struggled to accept for years. She's always been somewhat overweight, consistently about 15-25 lbs, and this has also affected her own body image. She's admitted to having a very low libido and has never had an orgasm. I've never felt that she had lust/desire for me and for sex in general. I've questioned whether or not she's asexual or maybe even gay. I've asked her about this in the past and she says no, and then just turns the question back to me. I'm most definitely sexual and not gay. I love my wife in so many ways, but I just don't find her desirable sexually and am decidedly turned-off by her body and indifference about wanting/needing sex. I'm struggling because I want to feel differently towards her but just don't know if that's even possible anymore.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 6, 2020 11:18:07 GMT -5
Thank you Apocrypha for you insightful comments and understanding of my specific plight. I am starting to understand more and more that it's me that is not attracted to my wife. At the beginning when we were in our late teens/early 20's sex was okay but not great. I've known from the beginning that we didn't have much passion for one another sexually. I'm turned off by her body, something that I've struggled to accept for years. She's always been somewhat overweight, consistently about 15-25 lbs, and this has also affected her own body image. She's admitted to having a very low libido and has never had an orgasm. I've never felt that she had lust/desire for me and for sex in general. I've questioned whether or not she's asexual or maybe even gay. I've asked her about this in the past and she says no, and then just turns the question back to me. I'm most definitely sexual and not gay. I love my wife in so many ways, but I just don't find her desirable sexually and am decidedly turned-off by her body and indifference about wanting/needing sex. I'm struggling because I want to feel differently towards her but just don't know if that's even possible anymore. Anymore? It sounds like there has never been a point where you were. There is a difference between feeling a unique attraction for someone and simply feeling horny. When I was in my 20's, I also went through a period of semi-aversion with my girlfriend - who really was "off-type" for me. After some time away and focused reflection, I relaxed into the relationship and accepted it, her, and the life we could have. When others describe a "religious awakening" - it sounds like what I had in my embracing of the troubled, difficult relationship. It became very easy for me after that, to want an enthusiastic, fulsome relationship, and my attraction to her grew immensely. I did not realize then, that she ALSO felt that way about me - and that partly my unavailability to her offered some safety to her from commitment. My embracing of the relationship and eventual asking her to marry me, really changed our whole deal. If you don't find her desirable, and never did, it's almost certain that she knows this. I certainly don't want to have sex with anyone who emasculates me or appears unattracted to me. You don't have to draw out the intricacies of how much it is that you are averse to her vs her to you or to sex in general. I'm sure you both would agree that a marriage - as opposed to amicable ex-spouses, or in-law relatives, or friends - involves a unique sexual attraction. You both say you are sexual people. You know you aren't attracted to her. By her actions, it's apparent she isn't attracted to you - likely for reasons. So, what happens next? What changes all of this?
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dbflma
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Post by dbflma on Apr 6, 2020 13:55:16 GMT -5
I really don't know what changes all of this Apocrypha. I often feel like you either have it or you don't. I thought I had enough of it originally but her lack of desire for sex in general, her lack of desire for me specifically and her continual struggle with food addiction and body image makes it highly likely that we'll ever get out of death valley. Nonetheless, I'm looking at all sorts of other avenues to feel desire for her including possibly going to an "intimacy coach" or "erotic coach", sensate focus sex or anything else I can find. Maybe it shouldn't be this difficult but I'm not one to give up even though perhaps it's in both of our best interests. I've spent countless hours and thousand of dollars in therapy and I'm feeling like I'm at the end of the line. Sometimes I think it's just the overwhelming sadness of letting it go that I need to experience. Sadness for my wife, sadness for my kids, and sadness for what could have been. I'm not suicidal, but the overwhelming feeling of sadness is present every day and all day.
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Post by baza on Apr 6, 2020 21:24:30 GMT -5
"I've spent countless hours and thousand of dollars in therapy" you note Brother dbflma . That's not such a bad idea - depending on what you were/are looking for out of that process. If it is in an endevour to sort your own shit out, then it's a great idea and potentially a great aid to your personal growth. If it is in an attempt to try and sort your missus' shit out, then, not so much. Her shit is HER shit and it is not your job to "fix" her - even if that were possible. If you sort your own shit out, then assorted relationships will sort themselves out. Some relationships will be enhanced by this process. Some relationships will change under the process. Some relationships will end under the process. All you can do is sort out your end of the deal. That's on you. What anyone else does is on them.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 6, 2020 21:24:58 GMT -5
I really don't know what changes all of this Apocrypha . I often feel like you either have it or you don't. I thought I had enough of it originally but her lack of desire for sex in general, her lack of desire for me specifically and her continual struggle with food addiction and body image makes it highly likely that we'll ever get out of death valley. Nonetheless, I'm looking at all sorts of other avenues to feel desire for her including possibly going to an "intimacy coach" or "erotic coach", sensate focus sex or anything else I can find. Maybe it shouldn't be this difficult but I'm not one to give up even though perhaps it's in both of our best interests. I've spent countless hours and thousand of dollars in therapy and I'm feeling like I'm at the end of the line. Sometimes I think it's just the overwhelming sadness of letting it go that I need to experience. Sadness for my wife, sadness for my kids, and sadness for what could have been. I'm not suicidal, but the overwhelming feeling of sadness is present every day and all day. dbflma, it sounds like you have never been attracted to her, and that she's not really into you. It doesn't meant you don't love each other, and you do have shared interests or shared investments. As I recall (unless I'm confusing you two with other people), you aren't averse to intimacy in general, and she claims she is indeed a sexual person - though she does not demonstrate that with you (so it's not a lack of interest in sex in general, but rather, with you). It's understandable to want to pull out all the stops to try to make it happen, but sex isn't really that hard when you are into someone. People have sex with people they shouldn't all the time. They have sex with people they shouldn't, they have it in inconvenient places, they have it with people who pose a threat to them and their interests, they have it in high stakes situations where getting caught could have serious implications. It's really not hard at all, when it's with someone you want to have sex with. Even indifference to sex should present itself AT LEAST as "why not?" rather than aversion. So it's not indifference - it's design. What if instead, you both broke this down into bite sized nuggets of truth? Play the ball where it lands? Do you both love each other? Do you turn each other on? Do you want to have sex with each other? These are likely things you would agree on. Then decide from there what a marriage is? And if celibacy is not part of your marriage vow, come to some kind of arrangement that's amicable that allows you to retain the best of what you have, going forward. Because, where's this going right now?
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dbflma
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Post by dbflma on Apr 8, 2020 9:05:29 GMT -5
Apocrypha I know that we both love each other. The main problem is a lack of desire for each other, although she says that she does have that desire for me. She does not "turn me on". I used to love her large breasts but she had a breast reduction shortly before we got married, and then a second one after the birth of our twin girls. So, one of the things that appealed to me sexually was eliminated. The first time she had it done I thought it would be good for her and that she'd feel better about exercising and losing some weight and that it might spark something in her to change. However, the second time there was really no conversation about it and she regrets having this done. She said she did it as a way to lose weight. I'm angry about that but there's nothing I can do now. She's had a food addiction for decades where she eats compulsively. She doesn't eat a large amount but eats food for comfort and as an "escape" according to her. She hides this part from me and from the world in general although she has a therapist and maybe she talks about this in therapy but I don't know. She has body image issues although she tells me that she looks at herself and thinks she looks good. I have a hard time believing that's 100% true. I think she's either very forgiving of herself or is just faking it to make me feel like it's all in my own head. All of this combined with the fact that she's admitted having a very low libido, never had an orgasm, has never shown signs historically that she needs/desires sex, suggests that I'm just fooling myself that we can resolve our sexless marriage. In the past few weeks I've been so close to pulling the trigger and just letting her know that I feel hopeless about our situation and that we need to move towards divorce. Every time I get there though I get fearful and pull back, continuing to question whether or not there's more that I should do. I'm beating myself up about this and having a very difficult time accepting that our lack of intimacy can't be turned around.
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Post by lessingham on Apr 9, 2020 3:47:54 GMT -5
Wondering how many affairs are withering on the vine due to lockdown. Or how many affairees were locked down together and face the fuming partner on release!
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 9, 2020 5:48:46 GMT -5
Thanks for your post mirrororchid ! I believe that my AP is "marriage material". I would not be with her if this was just about a fling or casual sex. However, that being said, I'm not ready to remarry and she may not even be who I end up with in the long run. She's an incredible person and someone I have certainly connected with on all levels; however, I'm also aware that I'm not just going to marry her because I'm grateful for what she's shown me. I truly believe that we've helped each other as she always reminds me that no one has ever made her feel as loved and cared for as I have. I genuinely do love her and care for her and treat her better than anyone she's been with in past relationships. I know she wants to spend the rest of her life with me. If there comes a time when I don't feel the same, I would just have to be honest with her and let her go. As for creating a dating profile and just getting out there to explore, I'm very comfortable and confident I could do that. When you say your wife reset in December and dating has been on hold, what do you mean?? A"reset" is a SM term referring to a refuser spouse initiating/relenting to sexual activity with a refused spouse, usually in response to an event of some kind. (ultimatum, therapy/counseling, or other) I had started dating in 2018 but neglected my wife in the process (half-assed her birthday). Upset with myself, I focused on being a good husband for about a year. We were still technically sexless in 2019 and in November, for reasons largely unrelated to my dating, she went to see a therapist. I was there for the first appointment at their mutual invitation, so the therapist could get a feel for our marriage dynamic [probably a smart move] and my wife told the therapist about my intent to date. The therapist was no small amount of upset at me (professionalism not leading her to put her heart back in her chest from her sleeve). Late November my wife asked if I intended to date again. I told her yes. My daughter says I'm not an observant man and I hadn't connected the therapy to this inquiry. (Duh.) Not long after, and through December and January, my wife and I became intimate three times over the course of each month. This is what I refer to as the "reset". Commonly, "reset"s don't last. The refuser starts to make excuses again and the process repeats. COVID-19 has forced me to be a very patient man and it's been rewarded a little because February and March each saw an episode of marital bliss (12 times a year is technically not a SM. Hurray?) and she initiated each time. Not great, but light years from where we'd been- less than every other month, with me initiating every damn time. April has seen one already, might clock in at two. Anemic sex life, but not on life support. Will she fall back into complacency? *shrug* I never told her I was going to stop dating. I said I'd start in January. I haven't. I might not, but I might, and she may "reset" again. Question is: if a refuser resets over and over. Is it even a reset anymore? Or is everything working okay, it's just there are new ways of doing things. Like an old TV that works just fine if you know enough to push the power button up and to the right while pushing it in.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 9, 2020 6:36:35 GMT -5
Apocrypha I know that we both love each other. The main problem is a lack of desire for each other, although she says that she does have that desire for me. She does not "turn me on". I used to love her large breasts but she had a breast reduction shortly before we got married, and then a second one after the birth of our twin girls. So, one of the things that appealed to me sexually was eliminated. The first time she had it done I thought it would be good for her and that she'd feel better about exercising and losing some weight and that it might spark something in her to change. However, the second time there was really no conversation about it and she regrets having this done. She said she did it as a way to lose weight. I'm angry about that but there's nothing I can do now. She's had a food addiction for decades where she eats compulsively. She doesn't eat a large amount but eats food for comfort and as an "escape" according to her. She hides this part from me and from the world in general although she has a therapist and maybe she talks about this in therapy but I don't know. She has body image issues although she tells me that she looks at herself and thinks she looks good. I have a hard time believing that's 100% true. I think she's either very forgiving of herself or is just faking it to make me feel like it's all in my own head. All of this combined with the fact that she's admitted having a very low libido, never had an orgasm, has never shown signs historically that she needs/desires sex, suggests that I'm just fooling myself that we can resolve our sexless marriage. In the past few weeks I've been so close to pulling the trigger and just letting her know that I feel hopeless about our situation and that we need to move towards divorce. Every time I get there though I get fearful and pull back, continuing to question whether or not there's more that I should do. I'm beating myself up about this and having a very difficult time accepting that our lack of intimacy can't be turned around. ** NON-SEQUITOR AHEAD ** I confused FlashJohn's AP for Dbfmla's. The following is of limited use. Skip it. Post retained for context to reply. ** NON-SEQUITOR AHEAD ** Seeing a minefield ahead, so hope this turns out to be welcome / useful. You've said your AP is 8 years younger than you. You've said she looks 30-35.
You've emphasized your wife's initial physical pulchritude and made it clear you disapprove of her weight. Beauty seems to have high value for you and I'm wondering what may become of your AP if you marry her.
Is looking 35 exhausting? Is she hoping the need to keep herself as marketable as possible will be alleviated somewhat by the commitment? Would she be wrong? How essential is lust to love? Can a reduction in physical beauty be ignored and the attraction remain as strong or grow stronger?
I circle back to my question of why your AP is turning the screws to you about marriage.
What components of love are important to you, how much lust can be sacrificed for other valuable aspects? Is commitment for its own sake appealing? While saying you aren't up for "playing the field", should you be? What are your own prospects long-term? Is a lifelong companion a priority? Or is rolling the dice okay if it means a more interesting, engaging life overall?
The life you have seems to suit you fairly well. You seem inclined to change it. What that future looks like will be complex and thinking about what you'd like to to be will be similarly complex and if you do a table flip, the outcome will be complex in yet another way. Still, to get to a place you want to be, it might make sense to think about what places sound good. I think you've heard about two destinations others wish to be. Are they where you want to be? If they aren't an exact match, can you be content and not lament what could have been? It's okay if the answer is "Yes." Honesty with yourself is a treacherous task, confronted as we are by expectations of others and our own ideals and self-impressions.
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