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Post by isthisit on Jan 28, 2020 12:52:35 GMT -5
I understand the empowerment which comes from removing sex from the table, but I have a few questions. Apologies if these seem intrusive. So carl when your W complains that you have not initiated for ages are you not tempted to suggest that she let you know when she is in the mood? This doesn’t sound unreasonable in an equitable and loving union. How would she respond to this do you think? Also, if your W did initiate would you decline her or perceive this as a genuine attempt at intimacy? I presume that this is what you wish for as you choose to stay, but wonder if you prefer the ‘control’ of the situation. Thank you for your reply and interest. Having control over this part of my life has made me feel so very much happier. I am amazed at how much better I feel. I don’t want to get involved in sex again with anyone until I am sure it won’t lead to so much misery. I might have been in a different situation to others here in that I had allowed myself to become ever so manipulated by my desire for sex and living with the one person I could morally have sex with. I can’t really remember how or when I became so controlled but in any case my wife took things way too far for too long. It’s a great shame for her to have behaved like that in my opinion. It happened so gradually and I just thought that most men did stuff for their wives in a loving way. So it didn’t seem odd. But before long I was working all hours, borrowing money, not speaking to people she didn’t want me too all in the desperate hope of getting our marriage back on track. Obviously I knew things weren’t right. So I want to talk to my wife about all this before ever being involved sexually again. In my opinion what she did was wrong and I want her to show me that she doesn’t see sex as a tool for gaining power or control over a man. I personally don’t find that acceptable. I believe people should treat each other kindly and equally. I maybe can’t be as sexually attractive as my wife or most other women. What can I do about that. Nothing. But I can choose to wait until my wife respects me before thinking about having sex with her. I know your situation is quite different and I must admit I don’t naturally understand it all that easily. Maybe it just seems so different. I need to get better at seeing things from others perspective. How has it been so far you since you separated. Are you happier now at all ? Did you meet anyone you liked or felt interested in sharing your future with ..? Thank you for your reply, although my enquiring mind... remains enquiring. I’m not much clearer about my questions, so as I am in a frisky mood this evening let’s play- finish the scenario: Scenario One- Mrs Carl: Carl you never initiate anymore. Carl: Well that’s because I am sick to death of the sting of rejection and the mindfuck of manipulation. Anytime you are in the mood, just let me know and I will give you a thorough seeing to. Mrs Carl: So, what goes here would you guess Carl? You’ve made it clear you retain control yet she has all the shagging she can handle on tap and available to her. Win, win right? Scenario Two- Mrs Carl has her eye on a lovely new purchase. A holiday, car, curtains or other shit she doesn’t need. In order to facilitate said purchase she decides to put out, to encourage your co-operation. To signal her intentions her hand wanders over to your knickers when you are least expecting it..... So, what do you do? Seize the moment as you are in control of your choices and she’s not getting the curtains anyway, or decline as transactional sex does not float your boat? You are in the driving seat either way. Good luck with your conversation. My view is you do not need to explain her manipulation to her, she is fully aware of it already. I will be interested in how it goes and wish you well with it. Thanks for enquiring about my circs. I will post later about that.
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Post by h on Jan 28, 2020 14:42:48 GMT -5
Thank you for your reply and interest. Having control over this part of my life has made me feel so very much happier. I am amazed at how much better I feel. I don’t want to get involved in sex again with anyone until I am sure it won’t lead to so much misery. I might have been in a different situation to others here in that I had allowed myself to become ever so manipulated by my desire for sex and living with the one person I could morally have sex with. I can’t really remember how or when I became so controlled but in any case my wife took things way too far for too long. It’s a great shame for her to have behaved like that in my opinion. It happened so gradually and I just thought that most men did stuff for their wives in a loving way. So it didn’t seem odd. But before long I was working all hours, borrowing money, not speaking to people she didn’t want me too all in the desperate hope of getting our marriage back on track. Obviously I knew things weren’t right. So I want to talk to my wife about all this before ever being involved sexually again. In my opinion what she did was wrong and I want her to show me that she doesn’t see sex as a tool for gaining power or control over a man. I personally don’t find that acceptable. I believe people should treat each other kindly and equally. I maybe can’t be as sexually attractive as my wife or most other women. What can I do about that. Nothing. But I can choose to wait until my wife respects me before thinking about having sex with her. I know your situation is quite different and I must admit I don’t naturally understand it all that easily. Maybe it just seems so different. I need to get better at seeing things from others perspective. How has it been so far you since you separated. Are you happier now at all ? Did you meet anyone you liked or felt interested in sharing your future with ..? Thank you for your reply, although my enquiring mind... remains enquiring. I’m not much clearer about my questions, so as I am in a frisky mood this evening let’s play- finish the scenario: Scenario One- Mrs Carl: Carl you never initiate anymore. Carl: Well that’s because I am sick to death of the sting of rejection and the mindfuck of manipulation. Anytime you are in the mood, just let me know and I will give you a thorough seeing to. Mrs Carl: So, what goes here would you guess Carl? You’ve made it clear you retain control yet she has all the shagging she can handle on tap and available to her. Win, win right? Scenario Two- Mrs Carl has her eye on a lovely new purchase. A holiday, car, curtains or other shit she doesn’t need. In order to facilitate said purchase she decides to put out, to encourage your co-operation. To signal her intentions her hand wanders over to your knickers when you are least expecting it..... So, what do you do? Seize the moment as you are in control of your choices and she’s not getting the curtains anyway, or decline as transactional sex does not float your boat? You are in the driving seat either way. Good luck with your conversation. My view is you do not need to explain her manipulation to her, she is fully aware of it already. I will be interested in how it goes and wish you well with it. Thanks for enquiring about my circs. I will post later about that. I don't think he's really "explaining her manipulation" as much as "letting her know that he's aware of her manipulation" in this case. Making it known that she's not as sneaky as she thinks.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 28, 2020 15:00:34 GMT -5
People have a libido, irrespective of whether they have a partner they are into. The appetite for sex generally exists on its own.
Sexless marriages, by and large, aren't about an indifference to sex or a mistake in priority. They are about one partner no longer seeing their marriage/household partner as a viable sexual partner. This can happen from a fundamental loss of respect in the person, or with a loss of faith in the relationship and the norms within it. It's actually really hard to restore attraction because it goes right to the core how they see their partner.
In the singles world, this happens all the time. People break up and split apart in short order. In the married world, they still are attached with strong legal, familial, and household ties, whether or not that attraction is present - and whether or not it has festered into outright aversion or disgust. If it was simply a matter of indifference - with all things being equal, they'd roll over for an easy shag vs risk the whole marriage. So, it's not indifference - it's actually pretty important NOT to have sex with someone they don't want to have sex with.
Think of someone you definitely DON'T want to have sex with. That's probably how they feel about you, for whatever reasons. Now, think about someone who you don't want to have sex with - and what it would take to actually change your mind on that? Probably really hard to do.
So, I don't see the avoidance of sex as being manipulative, per se, though I understand how it might feel that way, if you start from the mistaken assumption that your partner WANTS to have sex with you but WON'T, or even if you think they don't care one way or another.
When a jilted lover adjusts his/her expectation to accept that they no longer have a sexual relationship, it removes a tension and feels more true to their lived reality. The relief is from the lie. You can keep pulling that thread as well. Take off the ring, move to separate bedrooms, start having outside interests and an independent lifestyle, separate vacations etc. Accepting how your partner feels about you, rather than fighting it or ignoring the plain evidence, can start your path to healing.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jan 28, 2020 16:56:17 GMT -5
I believe apocrypha is in the zone in the above reply. The jilted lover analogy is really accurate. It wasn't until I finally accepted that my then W no longer cared for me or loved me as I did her that I could take the steps needed to start down the road to divorce. When I finally accepted that reality I could begin to distance myself from her and the anxiety of wanting an intimate relationship with her. I agree it isn't likely geared toward manipulation for most couples. I haven't seen too many stories where a quid pro quo approach was the driving dynamic. As I realized my then W had lost respect for me because I was no longer an Alpha male to her, I could make peace with the failure of the marriage. It was the acceptance of reality rather than fighting it or looking for the fix that made it possible to move forward.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 28, 2020 21:02:07 GMT -5
I believe apocrypha is in the zone in the above reply. The jilted lover analogy is really accurate. It wasn't until I finally accepted that my then W no longer cared for me or loved me as I did her that I could take the steps needed to start down the road to divorce. When I finally accepted that reality I could begin to distance myself from her and the anxiety of wanting an intimate relationship with her. I agree it isn't likely geared toward manipulation for most couples. I haven't seen too many stories where a quid pro quo approach was the driving dynamic. As I realized my then W had lost respect for me because I was no longer an Alpha male to her, I could make peace with the failure of the marriage. It was the acceptance of reality rather than fighting it or looking for the fix that made it possible to move forward. I agree apocrypha paints a compelling picture. It fits well with what I've learned about the Coolidge effect. A spouse's explanation to him/herself in absence of the awareness of the Coolidge effect may produce unnecessary negativity, explaining one's disinterest with imagined or exaggerated sins and slights. Informing a spouse of the Coolidge effect doesn't make it go away and some will get haughty at the idea that they are controlled to any degree by their bodies when it is clear to them that their lack of interest is a conscious decision with sound reasoning behind it. (Surely, for some folk, it may be.) The Alpha male outlook is a fairly common thread at EP, Similar Worlds, and here. Spouses think very little of their rejected partners unless someone else expresses interest. Perhaps this bit of evidence contradicting their negative view is confusing. They know they're right, but then what of their spouse's success outsourcing. They felt sure their spouse was of little value! I started the process of outsourcing in 2018 to find out whether I was delusional that it was an option for me. I found out in short order that it was not the case. She threw the D word out quickly and confidently, but when I explained that a near celibate marriage was not much of a loss, she started making efforts to be genuinely more intimate and it's been a very pleasant nudge towards a more typical view of marriage. I don't think she was bluffing, but neither was I. I'd like to think she knows it's wrong to refuse so much if she cares for me. We actually no longer technically qualify as sexless as we've had relations 11 times in the past 365 days, but I fear I am a depraved animal that doesn't find 11 acceptable. I explained weekly was half of the reported average sex life and it's not outlandish to suggest such a low bar, yet it would mean increasing our frequency quintuple. I think it registered. Still, we're on day 17 now, and I'm going to activate my OKcupid account again. I mean to play some pool with a polyamorous wife and get to know her. No sex. Just dating. It'll be interesting to see what happens, because I don't plan to keep it secret. Nor do I think it likely such an arrangement stays platonic indefinitely absent some commitment on my wife's part to seek medical help that she needs if she plans to have an adult relationship with anyone (preferably me, but maybe not?). It seems a guy with options suddenly becomes very attractive to the woman who thought she could ignore him. She keeps accusing me of wanting another woman. I said, "No dear. I want *a* woman. I'd like it to be you, but I'm not having *none*". I've been okay being monogamous, but a-gamous? No. Not okay.
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Post by carl on Jan 29, 2020 5:13:12 GMT -5
Apocrypha off the top of my head I can’t actually think of anyone I definitely wouldn’t ever have sex with. (Within reason). Given the right situation. I mean it’s hard to judge and say definitely not. Infact I bet someone who I might have reservations about could turn out to be great. I don’t know, I don’t see people like that. I don’t have fixed thoughts but see the potential in almost everyone. So I kind of see your point but for me it feels like quite an extreme or closed way of thinking. Very interesting view but I’ll say I don’t agree with it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 29, 2020 9:50:23 GMT -5
Apocrypha off the top of my head I can’t actually think of anyone I definitely wouldn’t ever have sex with. (Within reason). Given the right situation. I mean it’s hard to judge and say definitely not. Infact I bet someone who I might have reservations about could turn out to be great. I don’t know, I don’t see people like that. I don’t have fixed thoughts but see the potential in almost everyone. So I kind of see your point but for me it feels like quite an extreme or closed way of thinking. Very interesting view but I’ll say I don’t agree with it. You can't think of anyone you wouldn't want to have sex with? Any hole will do? What role or relevance does the other partner have in your sexual activity then, if it literally doesn't matter who they are? If they pick that up, how do you think that would change how they view your romantic/sexual potential? I don't think what you said is actually true at all, actually - the "within reason" - defining a frame that keeps you rooted in the same thinking. Consider these: How about your ex-girlfriend or ex-wife who you look at, today, and wonder what it ever was about them that drew you in - now that you know what you know now about them? A boss or coworker who betrayed you or who you actively hate - but who, despite that - continued a working relationship with her/him? What about someone you love, and have an intimate but important relationship with, but that is not sexual. Like your sister, mother, or father? Suppose your best male lifelong friend or roommate opened up to you and said that he couldn't keep his secret anymore, and had to tell you that he was always secretly gay - or maybe that he didn't feel gay at all - except with you - and that he had to try it once with you (but maybe more...). How about the guy standing next to you on the subway, or the clerk at 7/11? The 600 pound morbidly obese woman zooming past you on the sidewalk on her motorized scooter? By playing "within reason" - you are imagining a frame and scale of expectation and relevancy that would fit within the boundaries of "people you might reasonably be expected to have and want sex with". You might reasonably expect to have or want sex with your spouse and that isn't happening to the degree that you want. So step outside of that for a minute.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 29, 2020 9:58:08 GMT -5
We actually no longer technically qualify as sexless as we've had relations 11 times in the past 365 days, but I fear I am a depraved animal that doesn't find 11 acceptable. I explained weekly was half of the reported average sex life and it's not outlandish to suggest such a low bar, yet it would mean increasing our frequency quintuple. I think it registered. When I was in the open part of my marriage, my standard of the sex and intimacy and general care that I expected of my wife went UP, rather than down. Once I realized that I was capable and perhaps worthy of love and being desired and having robust romantic investment by someone else, I also expected that within my marriage. Behaviour that I would not accept in an outside relationship, I certainly wouldn't tolerate from someone who was supposed to be married to me. There was a significant shift when I came to the point where the discussion shifted from quantity toward the character and quality and reason for sex. The role it plays. I picked it up when my wife prompted sex with me and I stopped to ask if she wanted it. She corrected me very carefully - "it was because she thought we should have it, and that it would likely be better for us if we did." Big, important difference, that telegraphed our long term prognosis.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 29, 2020 21:31:19 GMT -5
We actually no longer technically qualify as sexless as we've had relations 11 times in the past 365 days, but I fear I am a depraved animal that doesn't find 11 acceptable. I explained weekly was half of the reported average sex life and it's not outlandish to suggest such a low bar, yet it would mean increasing our frequency quintuple. I think it registered. When I was in the open part of my marriage, my standard of the sex and intimacy and general care that I expected of my wife went UP, rather than down. Once I realized that I was capable and perhaps worthy of love and being desired and having robust romantic investment by someone else, I also expected that within my marriage. Behavior that I would not accept in an outside relationship, I certainly wouldn't tolerate from someone who was supposed to be married to me. There was a significant shift when I came to the point where the discussion shifted from quantity toward the character and quality and reason for sex. The role it plays. I picked it up when my wife prompted sex with me and I stopped to ask if she wanted it. She corrected me very carefully - "it was because she thought we should have it, and that it would likely be better for us if we did." Big, important difference, that telegraphed our long term prognosis. Oh dear. I don't much like the idea that my standards would rise. That's kind of scary. I don't mean to make our romantic relationship harder. I guess comparison would have a way of slipping in. My wife's fear of a rival is entirely sensible, given your report. my lady friend might have every intention of keeping y marriage strong, but what of my own expectations? Quite a potential landmine. Thanks for giving me warning about my own possible self-sabotage.
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Post by tinymouse on Jan 30, 2020 9:49:56 GMT -5
I find ironic the complaints from refuses that refused has not initiated in a while. Well neither have you.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 31, 2020 0:38:29 GMT -5
That's kind of scary. I don't mean to make our romantic relationship harder. Do you have a romantic relationship, to make harder? Oh, it's not at all that my paramours had any designs on interfering with our marriage. It was a little bit of lovely that worked within narrow parameters. And it wasn't even that I wanted my paramour more than my wife. Nor that my wife was lacking from her own attention from suitors. It wasn't a comparison - I wasn't picking between anyone. It was that my standard went up from rock bottom - from behavior that today would make me pull eject on a first date - to a level that I might expect from someone I had a romantic relationship with. It was that I was able to see the level of contempt in which I was steeping. I totally understand why anyone might read it as a comparison between two women, but really it felt more like an independent standard - MY standard - which was not being met. I also stepped up MY game at home, btw, as a result of discovering how I presented myself on a date with a new person. Consider this example. My ex-wife is chronically late for everything, and even though I'm personally not a rigidly punctual person, it upset me (particularly if we had an appointment with someone else and it reflected badly on me to someone else). This, of course, would prompt her to paint me as rigid and to defend her habitual lateness - the problem was mine, and how much I cared about how others perceive me, rather than about her not respecting others' time. Whatever we had planned for date night (my wife and me) from that point forward, was now out the window, spoiled by this interaction. But, with a new person, who also was late on occasion, or cancelled last minute - I tended to offer much more grace and didn't sweat the details. I also learned to raise my own standard of how I would treat my wife, to at least the level I expected her to be treated by a suitor trying to impress her. Towards the tail end of this exercise, we talked a bit about this "way of showing up" and it surprised her. She'd admitted she'd never occurred to her to pay attention to her own behavior or our dynamics in that way. For all her intention of discovery - there really wasn't much self-directed productive discovery or anything that she intended to use to benefit us. What I came to believe about that was this wasn't about making her marriage better - or finding something about herself to show up to our marriage in more vital way - but rather that it was a distraction and a release valve for the work of being in a relationship she didn't want. Which is the sabotage, though? Some aspect of this exchange reminds me of joining an assembly line, with my coworkers telling me to slow down so they don't look bad, instead of everyone working to a higher standard.
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Post by ScottDinTN on Feb 1, 2020 23:48:27 GMT -5
I too have felt empowered by taking the step to end all sex between my wife and I. What hurt me the most was the rejection. I will never be rejected for sex from her again. The longing and hoping for intimacy from her had also become torture. That too is gone. The duty sex I had been getting rarely wasn't worth the effort.
I was clear with her when I made this decision. I did not want her to misunderstand why I was doing it. I told her that the countless rejections from her was turning me into a very angry person and I couldn't live like that anymore. I told her I would never have sex with her again.
Others have asked if we that have made this decision would have sex with them if they asked. I would not. Part of me would enjoy turning her down. (Still a little residual anger to deal with there obviously.) But honestly, it would just feel weird at this point. I've shut myself off from her and I could never open up that part of my life to her again.
We have gotten along better actually. I'm not trying to make her love me in a way she can't. At first she still wanted to hold hands, kiss goodbye at times, or say I love you. But I don't reciprocate any of those. It just felt fake. She has stopped trying on those now.
We are truly roommates now. Just co-parenting our kids. It's not the best situation but it's alot better than what we had and I no longer feel like my happiness is in her hands.
It's been 2 1/2 years since we've had sex. I used to count the weeks and months of forced celebacy with dread. For the first time, it is my decision. It is an empowering feeling to take back part of your life that for almost two decades someone else controlled.
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Post by carl on Feb 3, 2020 20:34:47 GMT -5
I agree - ruling out sex with the W gets rid of a tremendous amount of hassle. But you have to rule it out completely to feel free.
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okiedude
Junior Member
Learning to live with my Situation.
Posts: 87
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by okiedude on Feb 3, 2020 20:39:26 GMT -5
I am with you Carl. my W would have sex every two to three months. I found that the psychological issue with me is that we go through stages. It is easier to just not do it then go through the stages after sex. The doubts the anger the resentment and such. I just now don't initiate and the last time we had sex I told her I didn't want to because it was harder to have sex and then wait two or three months to do it again... I did it anyway and now we are again at 1 month. should have said NO....
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Post by carl on Feb 3, 2020 20:54:03 GMT -5
Apocrypha off the top of my head I can’t actually think of anyone I definitely wouldn’t ever have sex with. (Within reason). Given the right situation. I mean it’s hard to judge and say definitely not. Infact I bet someone who I might have reservations about could turn out to be great. I don’t know, I don’t see people like that. I don’t have fixed thoughts but see the potential in almost everyone. So I kind of see your point but for me it feels like quite an extreme or closed way of thinking. Very interesting view but I’ll say I don’t agree with it. You can't think of anyone you wouldn't want to have sex with? Any hole will do? What role or relevance does the other partner have in your sexual activity then, if it literally doesn't matter who they are? If they pick that up, how do you think that would change how they view your romantic/sexual potential? I don't think what you said is actually true at all, actually - the "within reason" - defining a frame that keeps you rooted in the same thinking. Consider these: How about your ex-girlfriend or ex-wife who you look at, today, and wonder what it ever was about them that drew you in - now that you know what you know now about them? A boss or coworker who betrayed you or who you actively hate - but who, despite that - continued a working relationship with her/him? What about someone you love, and have an intimate but important relationship with, but that is not sexual. Like your sister, mother, or father? Suppose your best male lifelong friend or roommate opened up to you and said that he couldn't keep his secret anymore, and had to tell you that he was always secretly gay - or maybe that he didn't feel gay at all - except with you - and that he had to try it once with you (but maybe more...). How about the guy standing next to you on the subway, or the clerk at 7/11? The 600 pound morbidly obese woman zooming past you on the sidewalk on her motorized scooter? By playing "within reason" - you are imagining a frame and scale of expectation and relevancy that would fit within the boundaries of "people you might reasonably be expected to have and want sex with". You might reasonably expect to have or want sex with your spouse and that isn't happening to the degree that you want. So step outside of that for a minute. I didn’t say I knew anyone I thought I would have sex with I just said I couldn’t just off the top of my head think of anyone I had made a note of as thinking I wouldn’t want to have sex with. I wouldn’t want sex with any of the examples you described but I wouldn’t think of marrying them either. I am quite similar to my wife and other women have said they loved me so I just don’t understand.
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