I need an answer to my own situation. How does a person deal with the life ling belief that divorce is the chicken / selfish way out of a barren marriage?
The first thing you so with any "life long belief" is to put it under the microscope.
Was this belief something you figured out all by yourself. ie research based ? Was it just something you heard and you took it on board without questioning it ? ie convenience based ? Was the belief forged in real life terms as applicable in your own life. ie experience based ?
Personally, a lot of my "life long beliefs" were not actually sound when put under the microscope. Many of them were based on herd mentality. That is to say they were based on whatever the popular belief was at the time. Very few of my "life long beliefs" survived rigorous challenge.
Example. I held a view as a young bloke that I would "never cheat or divorce" (this being from the position of not even being married at the time !!) which was pretty much an emotional position, a knee jerk if you like.
Yet, as my life unfolded with all its' experiences, I have cheated, and I have divorced. And I don't have any regrets about having done either. They were perfectly legitimate choices under the reality of my situation at the time.
I think that "life long beliefs" are pretty useless unless they are experience based.
And further, if a "life long belief" is not producing long term benefits in your life, then I would seriously question its' value to you.
Baza held a view as a young bloke that I would "never cheat or divorce" (this being from the position of not even being married at the time !!)
I had the same belief as a younger person and to some extent still do. Couple that to a sense of my internal responsibility towards others and most people can see my stumbling block to moving on. Maybe I am just a "guilt king."
I also thought if I had a major medical issue I would want to not be tied in a baron marriage. Well I have the medical issues but now feel like I need to keep calm to save myself.
For a while I was looking for a different place to live but the costs of the real-estate seemed high.
A long time ago I read that many or some men don't leave a marriage until they figure out the path to a new potential lover. That new person seems to show up several times in this thread.
If I felt my W could manage her life without me. She has a super low tolerance for stress and would crumble under having to manage her own finances and take care of other matters (car, home maintenance, finding ways to not sleep all the time). I have shown her our finances only twice, and she freaked out and cried both times (our finances are fine, she just couldn't handle the "complexity"). She has told me many times that she would fall apart if I weren't around (she means by death, as she has no concept of the idea that I could divorce her).
Secondly, I would more likely leave if I didn't fear the social backlash and stigma of divorce.
tyler74, it’s an axiom in business that you can’t expect to get a better position until you’ve trained a replacement. It sounds like the concept applies here too.
Perhaps, knowing your desire / intent, you should be focusing on how you can become replaceable - whether that means training your wife, or documenting your processes so cleanly that someone experienced can easily help her pick up the pieces. Whether you leave by choice or get hit by a bus, it’s something she will need.
This hits a hot button because I am quite literally playing that role for someone this month - he depended on his longtime girlfriend to handle all the details of his business and finances; one day, he came home and she had left without notice (and for good reason). It went very badly for him because she didn’t make the transition easy. (No theft, just a lot of “How the hell does this work, what needs to be paid and when, and where does the money come from?”)
I want to be with someone who, appreciates and desires me. I get none of that and haven't had that in this SM for over 20 years. I'm just an income for her at this point. Like I always say: I have NO hope of a loving relationship if I stay in this marriage, but at least out of it I can have a chance of HOPE for finding a loving, caring, nurturing, physical relationship, one that I can give back as much as I receive, which also won't happen in my SM.
So, why are you staying? Answering this question might help me understand why I’m staying. I could have written your post word for word for myself.
Michae I'm only staying long enough to build my financial situation where I can leave and be able to support myself. We are deep in debt and when I got an attorney consult last spring, she suggested that if possible, to pay off some or all of my debts first because after the divorce there would be very little to no money to start over. The attorney was very concerned I would be setting myself up to become homeless. She suggested that I try to get the debts paid down considerably so that there could be enough money for the divorce and to start over. I live in a very high cost state and area and I just read that the homeless population overall in this area is 30% and growing due to no available affordable housing. The problem for me is I don't have any relatives or family that I can stay with. And I haven't found a friend who I feel comfortable enough to ask because this could be a long term situation just trying to get through the divorce especially the financial piece. But if that situation should change, I will definitely move out and forward.
So I decided to emotionally separate myself from my refuser and we now act as roommates. Some days are easier to deal with than others because we don't agree on anything. But we are working to pay off the debt together.
The attorney even told me that she doubted I would be able to get any attorney to help me because seeing my financial status would cause them to shy away for fear that I would not be able to pay them.
It was, needless to say, a vey bitter pill to swallow. But if I want to have any HOPE of finding joy in my life again, I've got to go through this first. I'm going to see where I am and have another attorney consult next year.
I'm just trying to take one day at a time.
It’s hard to continue to love someone romantically who doesn’t love you back in the way you need to feel like a whole person.
Post by ironhamster on Oct 27, 2019 7:05:38 GMT -5
If you know the "why," you can endure many a "what." I had hope things would get better. It was a false hope.
So, these are the factors that got me to leave. 1) The realization that she was never going to want me sexually. 2) The realization that she had no concerns about my feelings, desires, or discomfort. 3) The realization that I was attractive to other women. I just wasn't attractive to my wife.
With this, my hope for the marriage died. I was never loved back by her, and never would be. Once the false hope was gone, I could have hope elsewhere.
ironhamster- thank you for this. It’s interesting to see the reasons from men who already left vs those who decided to stay. Maybe it’s more from the perspective of looking back vs looking forward? Seems to me the reasons for leaving are much more concrete and specific from those who already left.
I’m still following the “college plan” for now, which will have be pinned for 5 more years, but...
After 5 years of SM stress I found myself in a state of delusional psychosis in August of 2011. After I was released from the hospital, my W moved w/ kids back into her parents house for several weeks because she was afraid of what I might do. (Leaving me home alone, jobless and despairing while I try to figure out how to be a human again)
Trying to open up and communicate my pain to her since then results in avoidance, sans empathy or support.
Sometimes her demands and snide remarks are triggering for me, and sometimes I start to feel that tingle in my brain that is uncomfortably reminiscent of 2011.
I try to get as much help as I can, but if that woman drives me THAT crazy again, and she moves back in with her mom, I’m changing the locks!
should somebody arrive that I could love as much as my wife, yet show me some appreciation (sexually) for all that I do (I do a lot), then I will be off.
IF,..the mechanism for triggering your departure is the appearance of a willing and appreciative sexual partner the question becomes, what if anything are you doing to enhance the likelihood of such a person appearing in your life?
should somebody arrive that I could love as much as my wife, yet show me some appreciation (sexually) for all that I do (I do a lot), then I will be off.
Well, there's the trick, isn't it?
Unpacking the statement, it shows several thoughts that are common to people stuck in the gutter.
1. "should somebody arrive that I could love as much as my wife" for example.
What's framed is your love for your wife, but not mutual love, or at least the same kind of love. It's perfectly normal to have unrequited love, and this would be a poor prescription for a marriage. Most celibate marriages have arrived at a point where either they never achieved liftoff, or somewhere years back, one of them decidedly fell out of love, but was held in place by the other elements of marriage.
Framing it this way, as many do, people go on to replicate the same mistakes in subsequent relationships. A successful marriage generally involves two people loving each other in a similar way, and the likelihood of reciprocation has no sense of cosmic justice, based on how hard you work or what you deserve, based on what you'll endure to prove your love. No amount of appreciation will happen when your partner DOES NOT see you as a sexual partner. No amount of sex with someone you don't want, is too little.
2. The second common mistake I see is the "switching from one horse to another while riding" trope. The way we are with one partner might be quite different from the way we are with another. Meet an adventurous person, for example, and suddenly you are out skydiving or scuba diving, or on the way to Peru. Meet a family-oriented person if you came from a dysfunctional family, and suddenly you are eagerly looking forward to hordes of people and how you will bake the yams for Thanksgiving dinner, when before you dreaded it.
But there's also - who are you as a person - irrespective of a partner. We all have a duty to ourselves to be interesting people and to see who we are at a baseline, when not adapting to another person's agenda. It's important to set that baseline before cannonballing into a new relationship so that you know who you are and what your limits are - when to pull the plug.
For example, when I was dating quite a few women, getting my bearings, I often secretly weighed my time out with company against the same time and money spent with my children, or alone, playing videogames, or pursuing a solo interest. If I found that my time with a date came up consistently short, I would cut bait, rather than continuing on with the assumption that I was "applying for a relationship" with them. I surprised several women who had assumed my affection and felt they were holding all the cards. This was important personal growth, because the old married me would have continued supplicating and compromising until I had nothing I wanted and no personal credibility left. I learned intrinsic, principled limits, standards and boundaries that were not solely set by "what the market would bear".
3. The idea that you would shift only when someone you love more comes along. This "Darwin's Law" idea is based on the faulty premise that you need someone, however unsuitable, beside you. The presence of another candidate has nothing much really to do with the unsuitability and misery of your present partner. Even if you were to have an affair while in your present engagement - the way people show up when conducting an affair is different from how they present when fully available and single. And, in an affair situation, your suitability to the affair partner might be contingent upon your unavailability. Why? Because there are fewer misconceptions then about the upper limits of the relationship. Sometimes people don't want the whole thing. Sometimes people want a relationship that is limited to a narrow range of exploration. A married person can be attractive to someone who doesn't want to feel badly about not wanting to spend a lot of time or personal investment to get the romantic and sexual excitement or intimacy they want. If you were to become single again and available all the time, suddenly your value drops, in that circumstance. At least, it's like starting again in a different context.
To say nothing of the unsuitability of you as a partner - when you have all that baggage - to an otherwise viable prospective partner. It's a jungle out there. Why wouldn't they just choose someone else who is single or not mired in the middle of a new separation?
Last Edit: Oct 27, 2019 13:14:37 GMT -5 by apocrypha
Post by ironhamster on Oct 27, 2019 15:14:21 GMT -5
The argument for leaving has to stand on its own.
Look at your situation from a third person point of view. Step back emotionally. You know what you have felt. We ALL come to these sites looking for a magic ingredient that will fix our marriage. It takes a long time to figure out what is really going on.
When my marriage ended, I already had a relationship going with my current girlfriend, but, the future was unclear and unforeseen. I could not include a new relationship in my decision, but only the hope that new relationships were out there. They are.
I had to ask myself, Can I see myself still married to this woman once our kids are grown? My answer became an emphatic "no!"
If you are not at that point, I recommend that you wait until you are, but do not stop thinking about your predicament. Know where you stand in the mind of your spouse, and the laws of your state.
This the "Shoutbox" -- basically a site-wide, group chat. (It's only visible to members.)
worksforme2: Since our esteemed governor has declared a state of emergency here in NC (a total of 12 cases so far) the hording of toilet paper has begun. Is diarrhea a part of covid 19? I see Lowes and Home Depot have quick install toilet retro fit bidets.
Mar 13, 2020 10:34:57 GMT -5
petrushka: I've no idea what it is with the toilet paper hoarding. I walked out of a supermarket yesterday and saw a woman with the jumbo sized trolley and some 4x 18 roll packs of toilet paper. Nuts. Completely nuts. Incidentally, a bidet is definitely the way to go
Mar 14, 2020 6:18:43 GMT -5
petrushka: Even her little 5 or 6 year old was questioning her purchase!
Mar 14, 2020 6:25:44 GMT -5
petrushka: One of my favourite quotes for the last 30 years: "don't ever look a sheep in the eyes, the intellectual vacuum may suck your brains out". Well, let's all drink to the sheeple! (besides, alcohol is a good disinfectant).
Mar 14, 2020 6:31:26 GMT -5
frednsa: so...............i'd like to tell her when she "attempts to placate me": have you ever been invited to a party where you knew for certain that you WEREN'T wanted ?
Mar 19, 2020 15:57:05 GMT -5
worksforme2: Former Miss Hawaii tests positive. Being the gallant lad that I am I have offered her the use of my guest bedroom to "shelter in place"..
Mar 23, 2020 20:34:21 GMT -5
worksforme2: Hey tamara68, there is a covid19 positive cat in Belgium, watch out for it.
Mar 30, 2020 14:05:56 GMT -5
tamara68: @worksforme I think I have to be more careful for all infected people. Most likely I already have Covid19
Apr 1, 2020 3:29:42 GMT -5
worksforme2: tamara68.....it's been a couple weeks since you posted you may have the covid19 virus. hopefully you are feeling better and are on your way to renewed health
Apr 11, 2020 5:31:38 GMT -5
tamara68: @worksforme thanks, yes I am feeling better. How is it in the USA?
Apr 14, 2020 1:57:26 GMT -5
worksforme2: some better and some worse,..virus seems to be slowing down, but people are beginning to refuse to stay inside,...worst thing I see is Biden leading in the election poles,...but that could be fake news
Apr 20, 2020 16:56:22 GMT -5
mirrororchid: Politics? Is that what we want to happen here?
Apr 21, 2020 6:21:24 GMT -5
petrushka: Certainly not American style politics. Toxic echo chambers.
Apr 23, 2020 16:21:52 GMT -5
petrushka: However, I feel that sexual politics, including political moves that impact the relationships between gender (misogynist, misandrist, etc) definitely deserve room in this context.
Apr 23, 2020 16:22:59 GMT -5
fred: just calculated that i've spent somewhere near 19,000 days (& nights) as a "rejectee".AND that allows for 2,000+ days (& nights) on business travel apart from her. i've chosen to "stay" .....would never do that again, and can't as you see doing the math
May 15, 2020 18:01:15 GMT -5
worksforme2: 19000 days and nights,....damn dude, that's 52 yrs.
Jun 17, 2020 9:19:10 GMT -5
fred: you're a little short works - was thinking this AM, there has NEVER been a day when she indicated desire for me physically (other than for heavy lifting or finance)........LOL...........earlier, i had enough libido for both of us, now i'm left with guilt
Jun 20, 2020 13:11:12 GMT -5
fred: over imposing myself on her rather than simply leaving .....DAMN LOVE ANYWAY !
Jun 20, 2020 13:12:12 GMT -5
mesulina: update everyone, still has not happened. I have now come to accept that I will live with out. It is just different now.
Jun 29, 2020 19:32:31 GMT -5
worksforme2: Sorry mesulina,... but on the positive side you did stock up on toys a short time back,..now might be the time to go for the gusto
Jun 30, 2020 17:42:54 GMT -5