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Post by worksforme2 on Jun 1, 2020 19:15:23 GMT -5
Handy Take an advil and get a therapist. If you're going to let headaches get in your way, things will never improve! 🤔😏 Just saying.... Just in case your headache is Covid related, don't take Advil, take an aspirin. Then hurry on down to see that therapist. Tell then saarinista sent you.
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Post by Handy on Jun 2, 2020 2:14:14 GMT -5
Padgemi, best wishes with your new apartment
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Post by Handy on Jun 2, 2020 2:34:11 GMT -5
Saarinista, I am only supposed to take Tylenol or Tramadol. I have had the headaches for 5 weeks and saw 2 doctors and had a CT scan for other reasons. I think they are from a fall I had when I was 14 yrs old, which was a very, very long time ago. Or they could be related to the DNA miss-match repair treatments I am going through.
Covid 19 is out of the picture (only 41 current cases in the state as of today). I have an N95 mask (by accident 2 years ago for saw dust) and use lots of hand sanitizer. I get a quick check-up every 2 weeks before I have my DNA miss-match repair treatment.
...... Tell then Saarinista sent you. I think a massage therapist would do about now and maybe see a shrink again. One problem no one can solve is realestate prices have almost doubled in the last 10 years so buying my own place just cost a lot more than I am use to.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jun 2, 2020 5:07:24 GMT -5
...... Tell then Saarinista sent you.I think a massage therapist would do about now and maybe see a shrink again. Be sure to ask that massage therapist for the treatment that ends with a happy landing. Cures a headache every time......
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Post by flyingsolo on Jun 2, 2020 6:56:11 GMT -5
What would be a major factor (or factors) that would make you leave? Why? My wife and I are still in counseling. She claims she still wants to restore emotional and physical intimacy in our marriage. If restoring physical intimacy is no longer a goal or she admits “She’s Done” or I see that she has given up fighting for us and our marriage, I’m out. After 25 years together, I am willing to keep trying for the sake of our kids if nothing else. Things aren’t so bad that they are intolerable and my wife is dealing with menopause which is also causing some issues. I tell myself this is a temporary stage in my life. We are either going to fix it or we aren’t and I will leave, but things cannot stay as they are now. Neither one of us wants them to. However I will give up and move on for my own sanity and future happiness if we can’t fix it to where we are both happy in our marriage.
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Post by saarinista on Jun 3, 2020 19:59:50 GMT -5
flyingsolo not to push it, but what reason would your wife have to be honest about her motives if she actually doesn't care about fixing the sexual aspect of your marriage and is hanging on for kids and money? It happen s. But maybe she's different or maybe she is hoping or doesn't know what to do. I'm just saying that she's been reluctantly or completely unsexual for a decade and your marriage in general sounds like it's been fraught.
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Post by hiker64 on Jun 15, 2020 1:59:22 GMT -5
This is a great thread. My wife has not been intimate with me for over 10 years. Most of the first 15 years of our marriage had good intimacy and we were very close. She will occasionally share her body with me if I ask but it is mostly rejection. I get tired of asking because rejection hurts. I have thought about leaving but something always happens when I get close to doing it (the passing of my parents, medical issues with my wife, health issues with one of our kids, financial issues which we suffered greatly during the Great Recession). I could say that these were excuses I make to myself but I just could not see myself leaving during a family crisis.
What would cause me to leave? 1)Infidelity on her part. I suspected this due to the lack of intimacy but I really don't think she wants to be with someone else or get divorced. She is just emotionally blocked (due to emotional abuse from a relative when she was younger). When our marriage had some problems, she simply withdrew. It seems like she finds it safer to be this way. 2)I guess if our financial situation was a lot better, it would be easier to leave. 3) If I was absolutely convinced that she did not love me. For me, this is the big one. Although I have often thought that her lack of interest in intimacy with me meant she did not love me, I am not sure of that. She does a lot of things for me in other ways and we enjoy activities together (like hiking) but of course that is not enough to make a happy marriage. I have made big sacrifices in our marriage and I would like to feel appreciated. The question then becomes what would convince me that she did not love me. If I made a true ultimatum to leave if things didn't improve and nothing came of it, then I would know. But her parents are both ill right now and she helps take care of them. I just would not be able to make an ultimatum right now. I made a comment on another thread that every time I have moved toward divorce, something major happened in our family that stopped me. I am not very religious but it was almost like God did not want me to get a divorce. I don't really believe that. Another thing that would convince me she did not love me is if another woman took an interest in me and my wife did not react. That would make it easier for me to leave. I just do not know how to get something like that to happen in a way that satisfies my moral compass. So for now I am staying. I just wish I could get my wife to understand the pain I feel.
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Post by flyingsolo on Jun 15, 2020 8:43:59 GMT -5
Hiker64, you indicated you originally had good intimacy and were very close and that you are now in a significant amount of pain because of your lack of intimacy. Have you actually tried to talk to her about your loss of intimacy - not from a lack of sexual intimacy standpoint specifically but from a loss of connection standpoint? Without constant relationship maintenance and communication, people seem to grow apart as the distractions of life intercede. My wife and I are in the same boat. Neither one of us was happy with what our relationship had become after 25 years. She felt a loss of emotional connection. I was frustrated over the lack of sexual intimacy. We both agreed that we never would have ended up in the relationship stalemate we found ourselves in if we had continued to openly discuss our issues with each other and work on them together. With the help of a counselor we've begun to repair the relationship and I have seen some significant movement, specifically over the past few weeks. We've only scratched the surface at this point, but I am no longer as anxious and angry as I was as I now see some of the causes behind the situation and feel like I am working with my wife to fix them. If you don't start that discussion (and approach it from a loving standpoint not an accusatory one), you won't ever get on the road to fixing it. At least you might get an idea where she stands and whether there is hope at fixing it. She might feel as much pain as you do, but just doesn't know how to approach you about it. I'm happy to pass along the name of a great counselor if you are both interested or if you are interested in speaking with him to get an idea of where to start.
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Post by hiker64 on Jun 17, 2020 0:28:35 GMT -5
flyingsolo, I appreciate the response. I have tried talking to my wife on numerous occasions. We have tried counseling several times and she has dropped out each time. She is originally from Asia and I feel cultural reasons make her resistant to counseling. She does not show contempt for me and I honestly don't believe she wants to be with someone else. She is just stuck emotionally. Someday I may leave. I don't know. I am not ready to give an ultimatum but I may get there.
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Post by flyingsolo on Jun 17, 2020 11:28:37 GMT -5
Hiker64, I am not sure it is as much about giving an ultimatum as making sure you both still want the same things in your marriage without it seeming like an ultimatum if that makes any sense. Giving an ultimatum implies "change or else" and is liable to create even more animosity. Having an open discussion about whether you both still want the same things isn't nearly as much pressure and you can still add a timeline to that discussion. I needed to make sure my wife and I were on the same page and interested in working toward the same goal as everything else seemed to be more important to her lately (kids, church, hanging out with friends, etc.). So I started a discussion with my wife (on our anniversary no less) that I didn't feel I could continue in our marriage they way it currently stood. I told her that if we were still in this place a year from now, we were going to have to have a very difficult discussion about the future of our marriage and our family.
I asked her if she was interested in staying married, etc. I even asked if she was interested in separating, divorcing, sleeping with or dating someone else, etc. I was open to discussing anything she may have been interested in talking about, how she was feeling, or any other marital options she might be entertaining. I told her if she was interested in separating or divorcing, to just let me know and be honest. I'm a big boy, I can handle it. I talked about what a separation would look like if we decide to go that route, how our lives would change, how the family home would have to be sold if we separated or divorced, how we would have to split time with out kids, etc. At the end I told her that I still loved her and wanted us to work on our marriage together but that I wasn't going to wait forever if I didn't feel she loved me anymore. We agreed to be monogamous, not celibate and I reminded her that we used to have a pretty good sex life and I wanted to get that back. I realize that may have been pretty blunt, but I didn't make it an accusatory conversation and I didn't raise my voice.
I think maybe it woke her up a bit as she said "Wow, you've really given this some thought". I told her yes, I have. We've been stuck in a sexless marriage for over 10 years. That's a lot of time to do some thinking. Since that discussion, things have been much better between us. I think she sees that I am trying and that I still love her, but that she needs to work on our marriage as well and not let everything else take priority over it. She's even told the counselor she's felt the past few weeks have been very good. We've had a few good dates since then and things are moving in the right direction. Maybe you just need to have a frank conversation with your wife (again, in a loving way), to see where things stand.
You mentioned that you tried counseling. Did you pick the counselor or did she? Has she gone to see the counselor alone or are you always going together? You might see if there is a counselor more to her liking and encourage her to go to the counselor a few times alone so she can talk about things without feeling the pressure of you there as well. We were seeing a counselor, but not with any frequency, which I believe was causing part of the issue. We'd begin working on something and then not go back to the counselor for two months so we "lost traction" on that item. I've asked that we start seeing the counselor weekly or every few weeks, which has kept us on task more.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jun 18, 2020 5:21:46 GMT -5
...I told her that if we were still in this place a year from now, we were going to have to have a very difficult discussion about the future of our marriage and our family. I asked her if she was interested in staying married, etc. I even asked if she was interested in separating, divorcing, sleeping with or dating someone else, etc. I was open to discussing anything she may have been interested in talking about, how she was feeling, or any other marital options she might be entertaining. I told her if she was interested in separating or divorcing, to just let me know and be honest. I'm a big boy, I can handle it. I talked about what a separation would look like if we decide to go that route, how our lives would change, how the family home would have to be sold if we separated or divorced, how we would have to split time with out kids, etc. At the end I told her that I still loved her and wanted us to work on our marriage together but that I wasn't going to wait forever if I didn't feel she loved me anymore. We agreed to be monogamous, not celibate and I reminded her that we used to have a pretty good sex life and I wanted to get that back. I realize that may have been pretty blunt, but I didn't make it an accusatory conversation and I didn't raise my voice. I think maybe it woke her up a bit as she said "Wow, you've really given this some thought". I told her yes, I have. We've been stuck in a sexless marriage for over 10 years. ... "I told her that if we were still in this place a year from now, we were going to have to have a very difficult discussion about the future of our marriage and our family." That needs its own name."Penultimate Talk" "The Talk Before The Talk" "The Chat" "Put the finger through the pin" C'mon everybody! The whole family can play! I'd thought about posting an invitation to ILIASM to collaborate on constructing "The Talk" for newer ILIASM members. You have a pretty darn good core to start with, flyingsolo. I'd had some thoughts about what refusers think in terms of "how a separation would go". If it didn't result in a huffy tantrum, how might it proceed? "If I slept with someone else, how would you react?" "And once we divorced, where would we each live?" (I'm assuming "divorce!" will be the default reaction for refusers who think this response will stop the uncomfortable discussion dead in its tracks. How adorable.) "Where do you envision the extra rent/mortgage money coming from?" "What would you look forward to once you were 'free'?" "Would you be taking on a new romantic partner? Or have I been a 'lesson learned'?" "What custody would you want to see arranged?" "Should we see a counselor/rabbi/priest/imam/therapist/group?" "Just for fun. We haven't had sex in __ months/years. Why would you care so much?"
Such a conversation, basically negotiating the divorce may expose nightmare scenarios she hadn't considered. 700 bucks or more per month just to find a bed each night makes me go pale. (not enough to have put up with celibacy, though.) "Wow, you've really given this some thought"In an alternate reality you arched your eyebrows and said, "Wow. You haven't?"
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Post by worksforme2 on Jun 18, 2020 5:49:56 GMT -5
...I told her that if we were still in this place a year from now, we were going to have to have a very difficult discussion about the future of our marriage and our family. I asked her if she was interested in staying married, etc. I even asked if she was interested in separating, divorcing, sleeping with or dating someone else, etc. I was open to discussing anything she may have been interested in talking about, how she was feeling, or any other marital options she might be entertaining. I told her if she was interested in separating or divorcing, to just let me know and be honest. I'm a big boy, I can handle it. I talked about what a separation would look like if we decide to go that route, how our lives would change, how the family home would have to be sold if we separated or divorced, how we would have to split time with out kids, etc. At the end I told her that I still loved her and wanted us to work on our marriage together but that I wasn't going to wait forever if I didn't feel she loved me anymore. We agreed to be monogamous, not celibate and I reminded her that we used to have a pretty good sex life and I wanted to get that back. I realize that may have been pretty blunt, but I didn't make it an accusatory conversation and I didn't raise my voice. I think maybe it woke her up a bit as she said "Wow, you've really given this some thought". I told her yes, I have. We've been stuck in a sexless marriage for over 10 years. ... "Wow, you've really given this some thought"In an alternate reality you arched your eyebrows and said, "Wow. You haven't?" It's interesting to note this response from the wife. Shortly after our divorcee my X and i were talking about stuff and how we wished it had worked out differently. She said at one point "I never thought I would be divorced a 2nd time". My reaction was along the "WOW" lines. In spite of numerous "talks" in which I expressed how unhappy I was and how the marriage could not continue with the same status quo with regard to intimacy, my X was still surprised when I pulled the plug and declared time of death. It really seems that often our partners simply do not hear what we are saying and if they do they don't think crash and burn will be the ultimate result. The final collapse really does come as a surprise to so many of them.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jun 18, 2020 6:04:44 GMT -5
"Wow, you've really given this some thought"In an alternate reality you arched your eyebrows and said, "Wow. You haven't?" It's interesting to note this response from the wife. Shortly after our divorcee my X and i were talking about stuff and how we wished it had worked out differently. She said at one point "I never thought I would be divorced a 2nd time". My reaction was along the "WOW" lines. In spite of numerous "talks" in which I expressed how unhappy I was and how the marriage could not continue with the same status quo with regard to intimacy, my X was still surprised when I pulled the plug and declared time of death. It really seems that often our partners simply do not hear what we are saying and if they do they don't think crash and burn will be the ultimate result. The final collapse really does come as a surprise to so many of them. There's just no way to paint this as pretty for your ex. She didn't know? She knew, but didn't think you'd do anything? (Too many talks?) She knew, but divorce was easier than the work she'd need to do on herself? The third marriage better be an open one, or she can expect a third divorce. She just isn't wife material and she needs to own that. Wives have sex. Full stop. Society's demand that everyone marry is causing this insanity. Barring an acceptance of non-monogamy, no one should expect divorce rates to get much better. Sure money causes some divorce, but no sex sure makes those troubles weigh a lot heavier. How many of those money divorces are also low/no-sex marriages and money is the easier answer to tell people, but not the deciding factor in the refused's case? Did the divorce make money troubles go away somehow? Probably the opposite.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jun 18, 2020 6:26:11 GMT -5
It's interesting to note this response from the wife. Shortly after our divorcee my X and i were talking about stuff and how we wished it had worked out differently. She said at one point "I never thought I would be divorced a 2nd time". My reaction was along the "WOW" lines. In spite of numerous "talks" in which I expressed how unhappy I was and how the marriage could not continue with the same status quo with regard to intimacy, my X was still surprised when I pulled the plug and declared time of death. It really seems that often our partners simply do not hear what we are saying and if they do they don't think crash and burn will be the ultimate result. The final collapse really does come as a surprise to so many of them. The third marriage better be an open one, or she can expect a third divorce. She just isn't wife material and she needs to own that. I don't see any possibility of a 3rd marriage for her. She has voiced a # of times that if she never had to have sex again that would be just fine with her. And she has shown no inclination to date or interact, on any plane of intimacy, with men since the divorce. I think she recognizes that she isn't good wife material and she is OK with that.
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Post by Handy on Jul 23, 2021 11:43:10 GMT -5
Sadkat What would be a major factor (or factors) that would make you leave? Why?
I would leave in a heart beat if I discovered my W was having an affair with someone else. Why? If she can be involved with another man or woman (she doesn't like female on female topics), for me I would feel less guilty about abandoning her and the M. A gambling or drug addiction she refused to work on also might be a no-brained reason to divorce. OTH, lack of a suitable partner for me is one factor why I stay. I would be fine living alone if I felt I would meet a compatible partner. So far women I talk to that are my age all sound like they want to be free to do as they wish without considering another person interests or needs.
Not related to Sadkats question but related to some of the interactions between my W and I, when it came to sex.
Often when we did have sex I was into it but my W started talking about things she heard or read in the news. I thought she did this because she was having sex with me but didn't want to, so she focused on something outside our relationship to make sex tolerable.
Well, today after no sex for maybe 5 years (I forgot when we last had sex) my W does something familiar. She is watching the 24 hour news and the shootings in black communities was the topic. She went into the same mental state as when were were having sex. She was totally into her anxiety mode regarding a subject far removed from our home life. I instantly saw the pattern to when we did have sex and her mentally being some where else.
My conclusion is that is how she is, mentally focused on something she is thinking about, like the musical song/tune you try to forget but it keeps playing and playing in your mind. Now I know her mental detachment during sex had little to do with having sex with me. It is just how her mental thought processes work.
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