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Post by Handy on Oct 5, 2019 10:02:48 GMT -5
Isthisit Handy you are a real sweetie I know, but please check the calendar.... it’s not 1956. Today there are many women who earn as much if not more than their H, are chief cook and bottle washer at home, the primary parent and are thus mightily pissed off about it all. I could captain the team. I understand your POV is influenced by your generation, but here in Europe this is a historical perspective is it different in the US?
My post (women manning the home front and men bringing in the money) was about what I see in my generation. I will admit that I see women doing more of the domestic work than what men do. I see a few higher earning women but very few in the younger generation. Of these higher earning women I see a slight pattern that goes along the lines of, "who ever earns the most money does the lower amount of domestic work and does what suits the higher earning spouse.
What the 20 to 35 year old couples do, I don't know.
I read stories about guys that don't work or are in low paying jobs and think "what planet are they from." Not part of this discussion but "PIMPS" are leaches and scum.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 5, 2019 10:08:45 GMT -5
greatcoastal - thank you for your perspective. As a man who found his way out, it’s an important one. To answer your question, I don’t believe I’m looking for justification for the actions I took but will agree that this was in no way easy for me. Although all signs pointed to “get out”, my emotional investment in my marriage was extremely difficult to reconcile. There was lots of second guessing there! I’m still working through all of this and I suppose my questions are a result of that. So nice to hear from you!! Second guessing....Perfectly natural! I want you to imagine what it can be like with someone else? Someone who supports ALL OF YOU! Here are some quotes, some emotional support I FREELY RECEIVE from my now (woman/girlfriend). Words of affirmation. These help me to not feel guilty about ending my 25 yr commitment. Things about my ex:" I don't like her, everything she says and does to you, how she treats you with no respect, I don't like her one bit, she's trouble and a liar." "You are a good father, you did everything for your kids. The kids don't appreciate anything. They seem angry and miserable. As little kids and growing up you were there for them. Now they turn their back to you. We are BAD parents? I don't think so!! I don't understand it at all! What the heck is going on with these kids! I love your kids like they were my own, I say nice things to them and they ignore me? How about I treat them like that? It's so wrong!" You pick out clothes with me, I like your taste, I like it when you say ,those look good on you, you look so sexy, I've never had those things ever in my life, I feel so beautiful" 'You are a very handsome man, sexy sweet, I love everything about you, I want you right now" Thank you for taking me to so many nice places, I have a wonderful time, I love it. I've never been out like this with my ex H and last boyfriend" Let's go for a walk! Half way down the street, " I wish I could pull your pants down right now and give you a blowjob! ( gotta love an Italian woman!) "I love what you do to me. OMG that thing you do with your hand, So many, I've lost count, I need a 10 minute break! I love your whole hand inside me ,Oh gosh you make me more excited! I want you to do it again this afternoon.OMG having you inside me both ways, at the same time, I love it so much! So many new things." I could go on.... Yes it's vital , helpful, and important, to have a place to discuss our fears, doubts, concerns, but let's also focus on our victories and our own amazing self worth that we bring to others! Have a wonderful happy, joyful day!
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 5, 2019 10:32:31 GMT -5
1) Personally I found marriage stifling. My ex had complete freedom to travel anywhere at any time on a whim. “I want to go to a conference in Barcelona next week.” Ok. “I’m going to go to Switzerland to ski and give a talk.” Ok. But it never worked the other way around. 2) My new partner is an incredible man. Wise, patient, kind. He values and respects my opinion. He treats me like an equal. I have never been loved so unconditionally, exactly as I am. I could never have imagined that a relationship could be so supportive, so inspiring, so happy. But I will never marry again. I don’t trust that I am strong enough to not bend under the social expectations around marriage. These expectations permeate our culture; in films, TV, literature, commercials, advertising. The expectations seep into our subconscious. I’m just as guilty of going along with the ridiculous habit of my ex-husband making all decisions and I could agree or protest but it would have no impact on the decision. 3) I would much rather not be married to the love of my life and choose daily to be with him. To make a conscious decision for remaining in the relationship. To treat him in all interactions with love and respect and kindness. And quite happily he feels the same way. We’ve both had unhappy or unfulfilling marriages. Neither of us is willing to do anything to put our happiness at risk, and a legal marriage seems to big of a risk to take. 1) I experienced the very same thing! My now ex " I am going to Georgia for a week on a business trip." OK. " I am going down to my sisters house for a long weekend". OK. " I am taking the kids to DISNEY" OK. It did not work the other way around. However ,I do remember it being one of those " ah hah" moments. I told my ex " you go, WE will be just fine without you, as long as that paycheck goes in the bank we won't even know that you are gone." 2) I couldn't agree more!! Only ,as a man, I was conditioned to live " happy wife, happy life. Men are not allowed to show that they are hurt. Man up, suck it up. No support for you!" Guilty of going along with that. 3) I couldn't agree more!! A daily choice to stay together, not " oh well, we are married, I am stuck." Think of the example you now give to your daughters? A much, much more healthy example of what a loving relationship ought to be! BRAVO!
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Post by Handy on Oct 5, 2019 14:59:35 GMT -5
Greatcostal ............."I love what you do to me. OMG that thing you do with your hand,..................
I really like that whole post. I am happy you and this new GF/partner are together. WTG for both of you.
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Post by saarinista on Oct 6, 2019 0:46:58 GMT -5
Observation-regardless of gender, if one is unhappily partnered, the only way to get into a happy partnership is to leave the bad marriage and find a great new relationship/partner.
They are out there. But you have to look outside your current relationship to find them.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 6, 2019 1:13:54 GMT -5
Observation-regardless of gender, if one is unhappily partnered, the only way to get into a happy partnership is to leave the bad marriage and find a great new relationship/partner. They are out there. But you have to look outside your current relationship to find them. Oh yes. This. This. This.
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Post by baza on Oct 6, 2019 2:19:54 GMT -5
Agree with the gist of what you say Sister saarinista ..... though I think there are two distinct stand alone matters. #1 - is the necessity to get out of the bad marriage. And the case for doing that has to stand on its' own two feet. #2 - is the possibilities that then open up as far as a new relationship goes. There is not and cannot be any guarantee in regard to #2. However, there is overwhelming evidence within this group that #2 is a highly likely outcome if you are game enough to undertake #1. Don't believe me ? Then I would suggest that you contact one or two (or a heap) of the members who undertook #1 and ask them how they got on post ILIASM shithole. Or, just read the stories of those who undertook #1 and see how things are going for them. I put up a poll in September 2018. It asked all people who had undertaken #1 (got out) and who had been out at least a year whether they were happier than when they were in their ILIASM deals. Overwhelmingly, they were happier. Some in new relationships. Some very early in the stages of new relationships. Some just enjoying being single. Tellingly, there was not even 1 (one) responder who said - "I got out and wish the hell I hadn't"
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Post by elynne on Oct 6, 2019 6:56:31 GMT -5
Agree with the gist of what you say Sister saarinista ..... though I think there are two distinct stand alone matters. #1 - is the necessity to get out of the bad marriage. And the case for doing that has to stand on its' own two feet. #2 - is the possibilities that then open up as far as a new relationship goes. There is not and cannot be any guarantee in regard to #2. However, there is overwhelming evidence within this group that #2 is a highly likely outcome if you are game enough to undertake #1. Don't believe me ? Then I would suggest that you contact one or two (or a heap) of the members who undertook #1 and ask them how they got on post ILIASM shithole. Or, just read the stories of those who undertook #1 and see how things are going for them. Throwing this out there to support baza’s assertion that leaving my dreadfully unhappy marriage opened up the chance for a happy and fulfilling relationship. The 12 year marriage with my ex began a downward spiral soon after we tied the knot. By the end I was terrified to leave, but even more afraid of what my future held if I stayed. I knew if I didn’t leave then I likely wouldn’t have the self esteem and strength to leave later. I was at an all time low. The divorce was a dreadful and difficult experience. I had to stand up to my abuser and calmly handle character assaults and manipulations during the mediation process. But six months later my escape was finally legal. I never in my life excepted that I’d feel so relieved to be divorced! Sometimes still sad that we couldn’t make it work, but it certainly wasn’t for lack of trying on my part. I’m not going to downplay what a difficult and terrifying experience the divorce was. Support from this group and a good lawyer, a good therapist and financial support from my parents were critical to my escape. And step 2, a new relationship. My new partner is everything I would have wished for if I had thought it was possible. He’s kind, wise, sweet. He’s tall and lanky; a long-distance runner with muscled thighs and a beautiful ass. He loves sex. Loves touching me, loves kissing, holding hands, cuddling on the couch, cuddling in bed. He gives phenomenal hugs. I tease him that he plays my body like a musician plays an instrument; listening to every vibration, reaction and adjusting his touch. It seems he knows my body better than I do and it is without question the best sex of my life. Absolutely mind blowing. But it’s not just the sex that’s phenomenal. It’s the intimacy. The connection. Being loved and loving unconditionally. It’s how much we enjoy each other’s company. It’s the simple joy of discovering that he actually listens to me. That he respects my feelings, my perspective, my opinion. In the deepest, darkest moments of my marriage I never would have believed something like this existed. I think my case may be more extreme than most (in terms of how miserable my marriage was and in terms of how happy I am in my new relationship), but I know for certain I wouldn’t be where I am now without having divorced my husband.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 6, 2019 7:55:30 GMT -5
Elynne wrote the below. It has been my experience, too, in my 6-year relationship after divorcing my refuser. Caveat: I did not divorce to get this experience. I divorced because I realized I’d be happier permanently celibate and single than remaining in my sm.
“My new partner is everything I would have wished for if I had thought it was possible. He’s kind, wise, sweet.... Loves touching me, loves kissing, holding hands, cuddling on the couch, cuddling in bed. He gives phenomenal hugs. I tease him that he plays my body like a musician plays an instrument; listening to every vibration, reaction and adjusting his touch. It seems he knows my body better than I do and it is without question the best sex of my life. Absolutely mind blowing.
But it’s not just the sex that’s phenomenal. It’s the intimacy. The connection. Being loved and loving unconditionally. It’s how much we enjoy each other’s company. It’s the simple joy of discovering that he actually listens to me. That he respects my feelings, my perspective, “my opinion.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 6, 2019 12:18:02 GMT -5
Greatcostal ............."I love what you do to me. OMG that thing you do with your hand,..................I really like that whole post. I am happy you and this new GF/partner are together. WTG for both of you. Thank you Handy!! It is great! For both of us! My GF/woman came from a SM ( she left her unhappy/abusive marriage) and....then years of a dead end sexless relationship with a boyfriend. He would come home from work and be 'tired', drink lots of beer, watch LOTS of TV , then fall asleep. Worst of all was the physical violence ,emotional abuse along with being drunk all the time. So, you can imagine how much better it is for both of us! I consider myself an 'average guy', and yet to her I am way beyond that, considering what she went through. My hope for everyone on this sight ,who does leave a SM, is to find the path back to normalcy.
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Post by Handy on Oct 6, 2019 12:37:53 GMT -5
The "average guy" hit home with me because I feel the same way and feeling way beyond average if in the right situation is an up lifting position I think many of on this forum wished would happen. I know first people have to end their SM and than put in the effort to heal and then maybe go from there.
I doubt that feeling broken would attract a suitable partner and feeling broken while married even reduces the odds of finding happiness.
It was too bad your GF had to experience yet another being ignored and sexless relationship after she divorced her sexless and abusive H.
You and your GF along with Shamwow and BOC and others are shining examples of what can be. Keep up the loving exchanges.
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Post by baza on Oct 6, 2019 17:44:56 GMT -5
Back in September 2018 I put up a poll inviting all members who had gotten out of their ILIASM shithole - and who had been out for at least a year - to tell us what their life was like 12 months onward.
Overwhelmingly, the responders reported vastly improved happiness levels.
Many had gone on to new relationships.
Some were in the beginnings of new relationships.
Some were just happy with being out of their situations and enjoying being single.
There wasn't a one who said - "I got out and now wish to hell I hadn't".
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 6, 2019 18:39:08 GMT -5
The "average guy" hit home with me because I feel the same way and feeling way beyond average if in the right situation is an up lifting position I think many of on this forum wished would happen. I know first people have to end their SM and than put in the effort to heal and then maybe go from there. I doubt that feeling broken would attract a suitable partner and feeling broken while married even reduces the odds of finding happiness. It was too bad your GF had to experience yet another being ignored and sexless relationship after she divorced her sexless and abusive H. You and your GF along with Shamwow and BOC and others are shining examples of what can be. Keep up the loving exchanges. My girlfriend did go through a period of "I am done, I don't want a man in my life right now". Not feeling that " I must be wrong", instead knowing that she had been lied too and taken advantage of. That she did not cheat on anyone ,but found out the opposite of the men she had been with. ( she repeatedly offered them sex. They liked porn better) She felt extremely unappreciated. Like too many of us she thought " maybe they would change" Years of tolerating their abuse. Alone for a while, a time for healing, then she told a friend "now I can start to date again". That friend introduced us, and here I am!
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Post by saarinista on Oct 6, 2019 19:23:50 GMT -5
Re: Handy and his comment that we have to take time to heal solo after leaving a sexless marriage, before we then get into a healthy new relationship... Officially, I think you ARE "supposed" to heal on your own for a while without a new partner. That's what my therapist and books say. However, I have been thinking about leaving for a long time. I know leaving is difficult for all of us, but I am convinced that I despise moving more than any human on earth. Etc. etc. We can all give excuses, I suppose. Here's my point: I would never rush into another marriage after a divorce, but I don't know that it's disastrous to start seeing someone while you're also healing. Now you have to be careful about this because it's easy to conflate neediness with desire/love as you get to know someone new. But if you can do that, I personally would not rule out a relationship soon after divorce. But again, I wouldn't jump into a marriage. As for working through your pain and healing from abuse, I think you can start that before the divorce is complete. As for "psychological brokenness" making us unattractive and/or unable to select a new partner wisely...I don't know. I honestly think EVERYONE is somehow "broken." Maybe the trick of a successful relationship is to find someone who is broken in a way that segues helpfully with your own "brokenness." Also, just because you FEEL broken doesn't mean you ARE broken. Not any more so than most other people, at least. I'm sensitive to this concept because one thing my SM has left me fighting is this feeling that maybe I don't deserve happiness and healthy love. Consciously, I know that I DO deserve those things. We all do. But years of being ignored sexually and other stuff have damaged my self-esteem. I have to challenge my automatic negativity about the future. Positive self-talk takes effort, but it works! Hence, I don't like to think of my psyche as "broken." Sure, I have issues. Who doesn't? I'm hurting, though. I'm not broken. We all deserve love. Me too! Finally, as to your issues making you unattractive? Nah. Frankly, people who are hurting in the same way can understand one another better than others, often. Obviously a relationship has to be based on more than similar neuroses, but hey, being the same kind of messed up is a start! 😉 I don't know. I usually follow the psychology rules, but in some situations I think they can be tweaked without harm. Just my opinion.
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Post by Handy on Oct 6, 2019 20:23:58 GMT -5
Saarinista I agree that a person can at least start having somewhat of a new relationship before they are over the negativity of a SM. I have read several posts on several forums that can go either way. Some of those posts indicated they had to do their own "me work" before anything else could happen. Another large group said that just having someone appreciate them and listen to them was so healing they felt more positive about just about everything and realized the former SM was the reason for their own personal doom and gloom from the past.
My personal experience about feeling down had a few instances of "wow this person listening to me and me listening to her" felt wonderful but in 3 to 6 months I determined we really didn't have all that much in common and the new energy from this brief relationship (just meeting a person at a group event and and no contact outside of the group activity), the good vibes I felt in the beginning faded and I realized our connection couldn't be maintained. What I am saying it felt so good just to have a connection but the connection was so small it wasn't enough for anything more than 10 minuets a week interaction. It was just like some stale week old coffee or soda that a person found after being out in the parched dry land for a couple of days without anything to drink. It was good because the situation was so bad and the week old drink was a temporary life saver. That is a bit of a drastic way to describe what I felt but I hope you get my point.
Sometimes an improvement feels like the cure but maybe it is just an improvement and not the final cure to a long lasting issue. I think someone in a healthier state of mind doesn't think a small improvement is the total answer. I think once a person feels better about them self they can better determine if a relationship with a new person is just temporary or maybe good for a lasting thing.
Me being in a SM sort of makes it difficult to even know what I truly and totally want and what I am willing to give or do for another person. Other people too need to find out what they want need and are willing to give and I think until all of that has been worked through to a degree, it might be difficult to work on something that leads to a good next relationship. I also think this has to be done while dating for many people.
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