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Post by sadkat on Oct 3, 2019 23:30:06 GMT -5
I’ve been thinking about this over the past month or so. I’ve seen lots of discussion about why people choose to stay but not a lot about why people choose to leave. It seems to me that more women than men leave their sexless marriages. Do you agree? If so, why do you think that is? Perhaps baza can pull some statistics?
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Post by baza on Oct 4, 2019 0:15:46 GMT -5
The ILIASM stats say that of the people who do leave, women outnumber men by something like 4 or 5 to 1. For every shamwow , there'll be a choosinghappy elynne @elle nyartgal WindSister . "Why" that is I don't know, but I suspect that men will (generally) not leave a marriage because it's an emotional vacuum, but women will.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 4, 2019 1:15:01 GMT -5
Sure I have noticed this and wondered what is behind it. Men are framed as strong and resolute in society, and sure they might be in some contexts but in terms of escaping the misery of a SM perhaps less so. Why is this? I would love to know the thoughts of men who chose to leave (eventually) and also those who feel that they cannot. I am guessing children are likely involved but lots of the women here are parents too, so I am wondering if the best interests of the kids are a reason guys tell themselves whilst not being quite all that is involved? For me? When I finally accepted my deal was deceased with no possibility of improvement I had to go forward as I simply could not tolerate any more misery. Life is for living and I had wasted plenty of time already.
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Post by elynne on Oct 4, 2019 2:01:53 GMT -5
The ILIASM stats say that of the people who do leave, women outnumber men by something like 4 or 5 to 1. For every shamwow , there'll be a choosinghappy elynne @elle nyartgal WindSister . "Why" that is I don't know, but I suspect that men will (generally) not leave a marriage because it's an emotional vacuum, but women will. I saw statistics related to women and divorce. Interestingly for unmarried couples women and men initiated a split pretty evenly. For some reason there is a significant gender difference between women and men in initiating divorce. Despite the fact that women are harder hit financially than men by divorce, they still initiate the majority of divorces. Link to the article I referenced: www.google.nl/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/women-more-likely-than-men-to-initiate-divorces-but-not-breakups-study-finds_n_55d61f03e4b0ab468da049bb/ampI can’t speak for all women, but in my personal experience, I found my husband and his family to have strong gender expectations. My mother-in-law berated me for having a good income. She then said that she had hoped her son would marry someone who was a good cook and housekeeper. My ex has said many times that one should never hire a woman doctor for a medical practice. He looked down on nurses. After 2 years hadn’t bothered to learn the names of the secretaries and support staff in his practice. Personally I found marriage stifling. My ex had complete freedom to travel anywhere at any time on a whim. “I want to go to a conference in Barcelona next week.” Ok. “I’m going to go to Switzerland to ski and give a talk.” Ok. But it never worked the other way around. My new partner is an incredible man. Wise, patient, kind. He values and respects my opinion. He treats me like an equal. I have never been loved so unconditionally, exactly as I am. I could never have imagined that a relationship could be so supportive, so inspiring, so happy. But I will never marry again. I don’t trust that I am strong enough to not bend under the social expectations around marriage. These expectations permeate our culture; in films, TV, literature, commercials, advertising. The expectations seep into our subconscious. I’m just as guilty of going along with the ridiculous habit of my ex-husband making all decisions and I could agree or protest but it would have no impact on the decision. I would much rather not be married to the love of my life and choose daily to be with him. To make a conscious decision for remaining in the relationship. To treat him in all interactions with love and respect and kindness. And quite happily he feels the same way. We’ve both had unhappy or unfulfilling marriages. Neither of us is willing to do anything to put our happiness at risk, and a legal marriage seems too big of a risk to take.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 4, 2019 2:30:01 GMT -5
I think more women initiate divorce because women are more likely to have a support network of friends and the ability to socialize and pursue interests without their husbands. Men tend to rely on their wives to fulfill their social needs including organizing their social calendars. I remember a man’s posting here about a fear that if he divorced he’d be left alone in a rented room. Women may have such fears (I did) but would at least be imagining the room to be attractively decorated and a place for them to rest after being with friends or pursuing their outside interests.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Oct 4, 2019 8:06:26 GMT -5
I've noticed too. I think the reasons are as many as the reasons people are in SM. If their children are young they may worry about fair custody, making it with child support and alimony out of their checks. Just like many women with kids stay until kids are grown they don't trust the dad to take care of them on their own. I also think some just don't think they can find someone else and don't want to be alone and sexless instead of married and sexless.
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Post by tyler74 on Oct 4, 2019 8:22:22 GMT -5
As a male (not divorced, yet), I think part of the reason for the gender difference is the male fear of failure. It is hard to admit to such a huge failure in my life. It doesn't help that I feel as though it has to be entirely my fault. I also think that some of the the perceived gender imbalance is due to the tendency for women to express themselves better and are more likely to post their experiences on here vs guys like me who fear saying anything from shame or lack of expressiveness.
I already fear getting in trouble for what I said above.
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Post by workingonit on Oct 4, 2019 8:29:15 GMT -5
I agree with northstarmom that it is largely due to women's support networks. I think there is a problem in our society of men being more socially isolated than women. I also agree with @elynn and I won't get married again. Happy to commit to someone if I find him but I will maintain my independence as well.
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Post by MarianCali on Oct 4, 2019 14:36:20 GMT -5
I agree with this. I was shoring up my network and going out more. I was out the door emotionally. My H would never have done anything. I'm the planner so I plan for everything. He tried talking to his friends about his personal stuff and they shunned him away. I felt bad for him. I was and am the only person who he can talk to. I tell him he needs to find some new friends but he can't just open up to anyone he's had his friends for over 20yrs. They never talk about personal, serious stuff. All of his and our friends are divorced and/or no longer with their significant others. We are the only couple still together. In most the women left the men and the only man to leave left because he fell for his affair partner.
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Post by michael on Oct 4, 2019 14:50:06 GMT -5
Sure I have noticed this and wondered what is behind it. Men are framed as strong and resolute in society, and sure they might be in some contexts but in terms of escaping the misery of a SM perhaps less so. Why is this? I would love to know the thoughts of men who chose to leave (eventually) and also those who feel that they cannot. I am guessing children are likely involved but lots of the women here are parents too, so I am wondering if the best interests of the kids are a reason guys tell themselves whilst not being quite all that is involved? For me? When I finally accepted my deal was deceased with no possibility of improvement I had to go forward as I simply could not tolerate any more misery. Life is for living and I had wasted plenty of time already. In my case it’s because I’m scared of the unknown. Will I ever find someone after? I know it’s so much easier for girls to find someone. But for guys, or a least me, I’m not so sure. I think I’m attractive. I’ve been told I am, but that might be just out of pity. (OMG, I think my self esteem is gone.)
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 4, 2019 14:58:02 GMT -5
By and large, women tend to be more fixed on people and men tend to be more fixed on objects or activities. In a marriage, even slight differences on the whole can end up shifting the division of labour such that women tend to take on the role of social conveners.
#notall, we are talking about populations and trends here.
Women tend to talk about problems without necessarily viewing the talking as relating specifically to a solution as a goal, more than men tend to do that. As such, the prospects of a split may find that men could have the potential to also lose a larger portion of their social community and the locus of that community.
Also, when men DO talk to each other about personal issues, I've found the response tends to include an urge toward far more personal responsibility for solving problems. From what I've seen (and it may be that I just date a lot of charismatic women with strong support networks), the expectation of women's feedback tends to take the shape of justification and affirmment. #notall
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Post by isthisit on Oct 4, 2019 15:25:28 GMT -5
Sure I have noticed this and wondered what is behind it. Men are framed as strong and resolute in society, and sure they might be in some contexts but in terms of escaping the misery of a SM perhaps less so. Why is this? I would love to know the thoughts of men who chose to leave (eventually) and also those who feel that they cannot. I am guessing children are likely involved but lots of the women here are parents too, so I am wondering if the best interests of the kids are a reason guys tell themselves whilst not being quite all that is involved? For me? When I finally accepted my deal was deceased with no possibility of improvement I had to go forward as I simply could not tolerate any more misery. Life is for living and I had wasted plenty of time already. In my case it’s because I’m scared of the unknown. Will I ever find someone after? I know it’s so much easier for girls to find someone. But for guys, or a least me, I’m not so sure. I think I’m attractive. I’ve been told I am, but that might be just out of pity. (OMG, I think my self esteem is gone.) michael thank you for your honesty. I too am mindful of the unknown and acknowledge that I may be alone now forever. However, I swapped a certainty of loneliness within my M for the possibility of loneliness outside of it. I am puzzled though why you think dating is easier for women?
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Post by DryCreek on Oct 4, 2019 15:28:47 GMT -5
If studies show that unmarried couples split more evenly, but divorces are heavily biased toward women initiating... one needs to ask what tends to be different between those groups, then how those differences influence genders.
Age. Kids. Money (assets, child support, disparate incomes = alimony).
Then stack on the behavioral differences that have been highlighted here. Which should be the same for unmarried couples, but are probably compounded for divorcées because these additional factors add complexity.
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Post by elynne on Oct 4, 2019 16:40:02 GMT -5
If studies show that unmarried couples split more evenly, but divorces are heavily biased toward women initiating... one needs to ask what tends to be different between those groups, then how those differences influence genders. Age. Kids. Money (assets, child support, disparate incomes = alimony). Then stack on the behavioral differences that have been highlighted here. Which should be the same for unmarried couples, but are probably compounded for divorcées because these additional factors add complexity. We know that in unmarried couples men and women initiate the split evenly. We also know that on the whole women take a bigger financial hit then men after divorce and then men tend to recover and women statistically remain financially disadvantaged long term after divorce. Looking at those statistics, it’s astounding that almost 7 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women. I think it’s safe to say the institution of marriage (in general) benefits men more than women. Even when both spouses work women still do the majority of the housework. In married couples with children the wife still does the lion’s share of childcare. I can tell you precisely how many doctors appointment my ex took the kids to over 12 years. Zero. How many sick days he’s taken to care for a sick child? Zero. I’d have to run a conference call with 14 countries while bouncing a crying baby on my hip. That sucked. I think while gender roles are changing in the work place they change is much slower at home. But this is divorce in the general population - reasons and explanations could be different within the sexless marriage cohort.
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Post by michael on Oct 4, 2019 20:48:54 GMT -5
In my case it’s because I’m scared of the unknown. Will I ever find someone after? I know it’s so much easier for girls to find someone. But for guys, or a least me, I’m not so sure. I think I’m attractive. I’ve been told I am, but that might be just out of pity. (OMG, I think my self esteem is gone.) michael thank you for your honesty. I too am mindful of the unknown and acknowledge that I may be alone now forever. However, I swapped a certainty of loneliness within my M for the possibility of loneliness outside of it. I am puzzled though why you think dating is easier for women? Have you been on a dating site? I hear girls get lots of attention from men. Men do not get the same attention. Have you ever been to a bar? I’m sorry but I just don’t understand why you would ask that. Everyone knows that.
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