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Post by Apocrypha on Sept 26, 2019 12:25:01 GMT -5
I don't know. If I am grumbling, and someone has a viable solution for whatever is causing me concern, I would appreciate that. One of the things I have done for a living is troubleshooting. I need to find the root cause of the problem. Most things can be fixed, once you know what is wrong. Most. Some things cannot be fixed. I've come to think in the singles world - both prior and post marriage - that while it's possible to work though problems in a relationship in which you are each still invested with a unique attraction - if something has happened that causes one to to LOSE that attraction - it's nearly impossible to see them as sexy again. There's a difference between taking corrective action to work out an issue that's not working out between two people, vs trying to regain an attraction to a person who you have come to see as unattractive.
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Post by tiredoftears on Sept 26, 2019 15:34:27 GMT -5
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Post by warmways on Sept 26, 2019 16:55:04 GMT -5
It is not reasons to disengage. It is excuses to disengage. Here is the subtle difference: Reasons have solutions. Excuses don't. If I have three reasons why I can't do a job, then I can check those boxes off as I figure my way through them, then I can work on the job at hand. If someone has excuses why I can't do a job, it is like playing Whack-a-Mole. Every time I check off the box, a new one pops up. I remember early on in my marriage, my wife was experiencing some frustration and explained her situation. I thought through it and gave her some helpful advice. She responded that she didn't need solutions, she just needed to vent. Oh, what a clear view that should have given me into her mindset, yet, I continued to pursue a functional relationship with her. I agree with the difference between reasons and excuses but playing devils advocate sometimes people just want to vent. They don’t want a quick solution just empathetic understanding and connection.
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Post by worksforme2 on Sept 26, 2019 17:07:26 GMT -5
It is not reasons to disengage. It is excuses to disengage. Here is the subtle difference: Reasons have solutions. Excuses don't. If I have three reasons why I can't do a job, then I can check those boxes off as I figure my way through them, then I can work on the job at hand. If someone has excuses why I can't do a job, it is like playing Whack-a-Mole. Every time I check off the box, a new one pops up. I remember early on in my marriage, my wife was experiencing some frustration and explained her situation. I thought through it and gave her some helpful advice. She responded that she didn't need solutions, she just needed to vent. Oh, what a clear view that should have given me into her mindset, yet, I continued to pursue a functional relationship with her. I agree with the difference between reasons and excuses but playing devils advocate sometimes people just want to vent. They don’t want a quick solution just empathetic understanding and connection. I think you hit the nail on the head here warmways. Sometimes the other person needs to work things out themselves.
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Post by ironhamster on Sept 26, 2019 17:21:36 GMT -5
I'm not sure what could be a more loving response than a solution.
Now, there are some people that do like their misery.
I see this in society, with kids that have had everything growing up but feel guilty about their affluenza and, unable to keep up with their parents lifestyle decide that the system has failed them and go out and get arrested at antifa protests.
I have a relative that has taken victim status as an abused woman and chronic pain sufferer. There are no police reports that back her stories, and she gets extremely upset when I ask probing questions instead of offering condolences.
Do you remember Syndrome, the antagonist in the Incredibles movie? He said, "When everyone is special, no one will be special."
Let me also reference to a song by Icon For Hire, called Get Well II... "Oh I need my pain/ Don't take it away/ My sad makes me special..."
Sometimes, people have problems because that is what they want.
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Post by workingonit on Sept 26, 2019 17:45:52 GMT -5
ironhamster I am 100% with you that there is an epidemic of people over identifying with their pain. It is seriously getting worse in our country! (Mark Manson has a great take on this if anyone is interested in thinking more about it) Also I 100% disagree with you about venting vs solutions. They both are needed! As kids we are all taught to suppress or get over our emotions. Unexpressed feelings can lead to bad judgment when those unresolved feelings are still there. Sometimes people just need to get it out so they can move on. Same is true with getting frustrated at work.
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Post by warmways on Sept 26, 2019 18:01:47 GMT -5
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Post by warmways on Sept 26, 2019 18:10:53 GMT -5
I'm having user error technical difficulties typing...I'll check back..lol
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Post by ironhamster on Sept 26, 2019 18:10:55 GMT -5
ironhamster I am 100% with you that there is an epidemic of people over identifying with their pain. It is seriously getting worse in our country! (Mark Manson has a great take on this if anyone is interested in thinking more about it) Also I 100% disagree with you about venting vs solutions. They both are needed! As kids we are all taught to suppress or get over our emotions. Unexpressed feelings can lead to bad judgment when those unresolved feelings are still there. Sometimes people just need to get it out so they can move on. Same is true with getting frustrated at work. Well, we do need to work through our own issues, sometimes, before we are ready to find the solution. I do recall a coworker many years ago, in response to some marriage relationship issues, flippantly saying, "well, you can always get a divorce." That was not an option for me, though. My belief system did not include that option, so, that was an issue I needed to work through and the declared solution was not going to be helpful until then.
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Post by warmways on Sept 26, 2019 18:16:40 GMT -5
Definitely agree people really can over identify with their pain and want to hold onto it as part of themselves, kind of like a security blanket. Some overidentify about being one to not getting into feelings or listening by being very stoic(my dad)
and then there's the middle of offering listening and being compassionate but not to continue if the individual perpetually goes over the same hurt and it begins to drain you and you begin to lose yourself in the process...ahem. That would have been me in my old SM.
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Post by Apocrypha on Sept 26, 2019 22:38:02 GMT -5
While it's true that often people first simply want to find that someone understands them without necessarily getting into a solution yet, that's a different thing from what I'm suggesting here in a sexless marriage situation. I've learned in my ripe old age, and working in a women dominated profession, very often the first and most important stage is to say,"Ya, that sounds really hard."
People are constantly and reasonably coming to this forum with the same question: "When is the right time to leave?" "How do I know?"
While the answers to those questions are arrived at through a process and can't be answered definitely by objective criteria, I think there might be hope that the time spent in limbo can be shortened - in choosing a direction or strategy.
There is a different quality to "the unsolveable problem" than there is to "understand that I've had a hard day". I'd say it fits closer to what we call the "scented candles approach" in these parts, or "do all his/her household chores in addition to your own". It's the goalshifting. If you keep solving the problem that's at the top of his or her list, that is said to be "the reason we don't have sex" and yet another problem rises to replace it - then you are in the unsolveable problem.
If you are in family therapy and instead of making progress that ALSO arrives in a return of genuine attraction, you either drift in a limbo of intellectual forensics on a now-fossilized disconnection or misunderstanding, or it becomes a theater of constant rage - then you are in the unsolveable problem.
The goal of the unsolveable problem is to be unsolveable.
It's a hydra, whose purpose isn't actually to be solved - but rather to justify to you, to themselves, to the therapist, to their friends or to whomever - a definitive reason to no longer be attracted to you. If you actually DO manage to clear the hurdle - it complicates their larger objective, and they switch to problem B, C, D, and so on, with increasing desperation. They KNOW they aren't attracted, and anyone who's spent any amount of time and investment with another person will have a list of top 30 things they could likely do to make things better. They can just go ticking off things on the list. It doesn't necessarily ever go anywhere though.
For those who are still in limbo, rather than looking to some specific trigger, I think it's more helpful to pay attention to the drift in this area - right up front - to determine the quality of the conflict and disconnection and whether the investment in resolving it is actually enthusiastically shared by both parties. If it isn't - then the therapies and strategies are just going to be twisted back to further demonstrate your unsuitability. The demonstration of the unsuitability is the goal. (and if that's what's happening - then it is a correct answer, so listen to it - because nobody can do it on their own)
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Post by ironhamster on Sept 26, 2019 23:06:22 GMT -5
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 27, 2019 8:23:14 GMT -5
It is not reasons to disengage. It is excuses to disengage. Here is the subtle difference: Reasons have solutions. Excuses don't. If I have three reasons why I can't do a job, then I can check those boxes off as I figure my way through them, then I can work on the job at hand. If someone has excuses why I can't do a job, it is like playing Whack-a-Mole. Every time I check off the box, a new one pops up. I remember early on in my marriage, my wife was experiencing some frustration and explained her situation. I thought through it and gave her some helpful advice. She responded that she didn't need solutions, she just needed to vent. Oh, what a clear view that should have given me into her mindset, yet, I continued to pursue a functional relationship with her. I agree with the difference between reasons and excuses but playing devils advocate sometimes people just want to vent. They don’t want a quick solution just empathetic understanding and connection. When I want to vent, and already know the solution is out of my hands, I am now doing better at saying " I just want to vent". Then saying " thank you for listening, we will see how it goes". I like it when the person I am venting with can ' relate' and ends up sharing with me a similar situation, and what the outcome was. Then... their are those who will constantly pull DARVO on you! I like Dr. Tara's response, ( paraphrasing here) " Wow, I'm sorry that's happened, what are you going to do about it?" A nice way of saying, " not my monkeys, not my circus".
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Post by tiredoftears on Sept 28, 2019 0:22:29 GMT -5
ironhamster I am 100% with you that there is an epidemic of people over identifying with their pain. It is seriously getting worse in our country! (Mark Manson has a great take on this if anyone is interested in thinking more about it) Also I 100% disagree with you about venting vs solutions. They both are needed! As kids we are all taught to suppress or get over our emotions. Unexpressed feelings can lead to bad judgment when those unresolved feelings are still there. Sometimes people just need to get it out so they can move on. Same is true with getting frustrated at work. Quite agree. I need to get it out. I am definitely over identifying with my pain. I keep having random hookups.... And it doesn't feel good. Seven people since March last year. Last week was an infuriating encounter with some rando whom I will never see or speak to again. Absolutely infuriating. The person was beyond annoying and kept suggesting we have unprotected sex(not happening) and was all about their pleasure and.... Ugh. Long ass story. I shouldn't have to keep doing this in order to have just a sex life. I don't WANT just a sex life - I want A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP! Why is that so hard for him to have with me? On the plus side, I now know for sure why I get so tired so often, it's not just because I am sad and lazy. There is something wrong with my heart, and the cardiologist can't schedule me till November. My primary doctor did an electrocardiogram, and said it seems like it could be something serious, not to do anything strenuous, and I may need a pacemaker or something.... So since I am verifiably sick, he's been a tad more affectionate..... Nothing as intimately close as a hug, but I have gotten some hand holding and he stroked the back of my neck for a while while I was curled in a fetal position from cramps. (insert sarcastic Yay! here)
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Post by tiredoftears on Sept 28, 2019 0:30:22 GMT -5
Maybe I should tell him he has to find a male prostitute for me, so at least I don't have to deal with the annoyance of people's shitty personalities. Business transactions are better than these messy one night stands. Since he won't do it.... and I just cannot live without sex.
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