|
Post by Apocrypha on Sept 19, 2019 9:52:51 GMT -5
An article came across my workplace newsfeed that I fit the way I thought about "leaning in" or "out" of a marriage - for those trying to anticipate the trajectory of a conflict:
For those chasing the "why" and for those who are spinning their wheels in family therapy - this insight could help.
You will always have problems, but when someone keeps bringing up the supposedly unsolvable problem, or parades it around as a kind of social proof THAT things aren't working well, without investing in the solution, this is a bad sign. This is likely a person looking to justify disengagement rather than find a connection.
That is almost certainly their true intention - to find a moral authority for their disengagement.
It's one thing to articulate one's view of a conflict accurately - helpful, though sometimes difficult. But notice the nature of the dynamic once the problem has been articulated - which of the pair is the one who is trying to unlock or restore the disengagement. It's not often the one who is disengaged to the point of threatening the marriage.
|
|
|
Post by DryCreek on Sept 19, 2019 11:13:57 GMT -5
I’m reminded of a similar dynamic - bureaucratic organizations where small people are empowered to say “no”. Being an obstacle defines who they are; in the role of a gatekeeper, they feel no relevance by being permissive. Denial is their only power - finding all the reasons something can’t be done. (Vogons, anyone?)
Certainly, there are people for whom it’s more important to flex their power of refusal than to “give in” and allow intimacy (even if they might enjoy it).
|
|
|
Post by Handy on Sept 19, 2019 21:47:04 GMT -5
Vogons? Burecratic, Nay-sayer, gate keepers perhaps? Would they enjoy much of anything? Some people seem devoid of joy. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogon
|
|
|
Post by ironhamster on Sept 20, 2019 2:32:42 GMT -5
It is not reasons to disengage. It is excuses to disengage. Here is the subtle difference: Reasons have solutions. Excuses don't.
If I have three reasons why I can't do a job, then I can check those boxes off as I figure my way through them, then I can work on the job at hand. If someone has excuses why I can't do a job, it is like playing Whack-a-Mole. Every time I check off the box, a new one pops up.
I remember early on in my marriage, my wife was experiencing some frustration and explained her situation. I thought through it and gave her some helpful advice. She responded that she didn't need solutions, she just needed to vent. Oh, what a clear view that should have given me into her mindset, yet, I continued to pursue a functional relationship with her.
|
|
|
Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Sept 20, 2019 12:10:41 GMT -5
Kind of a sidebar to the thread, but FWIW... Im pretty certain 95% of men in LTRs, myself included, completely misunderstand the "venting" aspect that women want/need. While each relationship is unique, Im pretty sure that if most men paid more attention to this aspect rather than trying to get laid, they'd get laid more often. Thats not to critique you ironhamster or say you did anything wrong. But I thought you raised an interesting yet vital point that doesnt get enough attention. Women tend to be emotionally driven. Nothing wrong with that except that it leaves most men bewildered in my opinion. Ive seen that the minority of men who can navigate the emotions without being a dick or condescending, seem to have healthy relationship dynamics. A friend who falls in this category recommended that I pay more attention to what W does rather than what she says. I myself tended to be a dick or condescending at times to the detriment of the relationship. While its taken me awhile, Im trying to be better than that these days. You know, sorting my shit out. And btw being the "nice guy" doesnt work either. I think most women either see through that or are repulsed by it. The nice guy seems to be wrought full of covert contracts. I remember early on in my marriage, my wife was experiencing some frustration and explained her situation. I thought through it and gave her some helpful advice. She responded that she didn't need solutions, she just needed to vent.
|
|
|
Post by worksforme2 on Sept 20, 2019 14:23:54 GMT -5
@akadaddeeo,...I am in agreement with what I think you are saying here. In the final 8 yrs. of her career my now X was an executive administrative assistant to another woman who was fairly high up in the management ranks of the company. My X sometimes came home somewhat ginned up over something her boss had done or had criticized my then W for doing. Like ironhamster at 1st I thought in terms of how could I help her not to get sideways with her boss. My then W didn't want that feedback. I soon learned to just ask a few questions maybe and to be a soft place for her to land. I just let her empty out the frustration and after a glass of wine or another activity my X was on a more even keel. In a relatively short period my now X figured out how to accomplish her job with minimum negativity from her boss.
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Sept 21, 2019 6:21:26 GMT -5
In my new work situation, the "why answer" ends up being 'corporate management'. It's like finger pointing, always someone else. Good luck trying to change it. You are basically stuck with it. Either accept it, or work somewhere else. You can try to ignore it, or not comply, but that has its consequences too. This reminds me of my SM and why I chose to 'work for myself'.
For example: an old driver got re-hired. it turned out that he had a heart attack while 'on the job', so... due to new govt. regulations, 5 months later his job must still be available for him. My boss followed all the rules and regulations, by filling out all the proper paperwork after an 8 week period, to be able to hire, someone else. Corporate management,"dropped the ball". Did not do their half of the responsibility, and says, "he must have his job back or we could get sued". This ,now, cuts back on 4 other people's hours. Including mine.
The 'corporate management' aspect of the relationship, comes back to, my ex ( and mine) upbringing, parents, family,religion, schooling,social influences, political influences , media influences, traumatic experiences, etc... Things from 'the past' that you can not change, things that shape a person into who they are, and how they deal with things. Red flags to look out for in the future.
No one is perfect, we all have 'experiences', it's how we let it form and shape us, and how we handle them ,that are things to look out for when choosing a new partner. ( or where you work, for that matter)
|
|
|
Post by elkclan2 on Sept 24, 2019 7:26:32 GMT -5
Kind of a sidebar to the thread, but FWIW... Im pretty certain 95% of men in LTRs, myself included, completely misunderstand the "venting" aspect that women want/need. While each relationship is unique, Im pretty sure that if most men paid more attention to this aspect rather than trying to get laid, they'd get laid more often. Thats not to critique you ironhamster or say you did anything wrong. But I thought you raised an interesting yet vital point that doesnt get enough attention. Women tend to be emotionally driven. Nothing wrong with that except that it leaves most men bewildered in my opinion. Ive seen that the minority of men who can navigate the emotions without being a dick or condescending, seem to have healthy relationship dynamics. A friend who falls in this category recommended that I pay more attention to what W does rather than what she says. I myself tended to be a dick or condescending at times to the detriment of the relationship. While its taken me awhile, Im trying to be better than that these days. You know, sorting my shit out. And btw being the "nice guy" doesnt work either. I think most women either see through that or are repulsed by it. The nice guy seems to be wrought full of covert contracts. I remember early on in my marriage, my wife was experiencing some frustration and explained her situation. I thought through it and gave her some helpful advice. She responded that she didn't need solutions, she just needed to vent. I guess another way to think about it... is rather than saying women are emotionally driven, perhaps women are no more well disposed to an assumption that we've got it wrong by someone who wasn't there than men are?? I think sometimes men think "She's fucked it up, so I'll offer her my helpful advice, even though I've not been party to the situation and know less about it than she does..." then they're surprised when it doesn't go down well. "It must be because she's emotionally driven..." Imagine yourself driving down the street, some guy cuts you up in his car. You're on the phone to your wife and say "What a jerk...learn how to drive moron!" Your wife says "Honey, if you just kept proper following distance and indicated in a timely fashion, you could avoid these kind of mishaps." And there might even be a grain of truth to it, maybe she's seen enough of your driving to know that you're perhaps not always the most considerate/attentive/ (whatever) driver on the road. And certainly everyone should keep a safe distance and indicate properly so it's not bad advice, is it? Look, my partner vents, he's a guy. You vent. You're venting just now. So let me offer you some advice... Not every grumble is a plea for help. Dealing with humans - whether colleagues or asshole drivers - is at least somewhat emotionally driven. But constantly offering advice when it's not asked for is patronising. You wouldn't like it either and it's a form of entitlement. It's not just a guy thing, most parents have to deliberately un-learn it as their kids get older, and women can be patronising assholes, too. It's just that I've seen you guys make that mistake time and time again, and it's avoidable if you just apply a little thought and logic.* Just trying to help. _____ * pretty annoying, eh?
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Sept 24, 2019 8:08:55 GMT -5
What Elkclan said!
|
|
|
Post by jim44444 on Sept 24, 2019 8:13:23 GMT -5
Excellent comment @ elkclan2. Your observation works for our real life interactions and our online interactions. I have seen posts on other sites where the OP stipulates not wanting to debate, just venting. Sure enough someone will reply with a laundry list of things the OP should try or do different. Then the OP responds along the line of "who asked for your opinion." That is when the fight begins.
So how do we know when to offer advice/opinion/help? We look for the linguistic clues like "How do I", "Can you help me", "I have a problem", etc. When in doubt we can always ask "Do you want my opinion?"
Yesterday I read discussions similar to this on similarworlds and fetlife so I guess this is a common issue.
|
|
|
Post by nyctos on Sept 24, 2019 17:57:01 GMT -5
Vogons? Burecratic, Nay-sayer, gate keepers perhaps? Would they enjoy much of anything? Some people seem devoid of joy. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VogonFrom what I understand, they rather like poetry. "Oh freddled gruntbuggly...."
|
|
|
Post by csl on Sept 24, 2019 21:26:49 GMT -5
I guess another way to think about it... is rather than saying women are emotionally driven, perhaps women are no more well disposed to an assumption that we've got it wrong by someone who wasn't there than men are?? I think sometimes men think "She's fucked it up, so I'll offer her my helpful advice, even though I've not been party to the situation and know less about it than she does..." then they're surprised when it doesn't go down well. "It must be because she's emotionally driven..." Imagine yourself driving down the street, some guy cuts you up in his car. You're on the phone to your wife and say "What a jerk...learn how to drive moron!" Your wife says "Honey, if you just kept proper following distance and indicated in a timely fashion, you could avoid these kind of mishaps." And there might even be a grain of truth to it, maybe she's seen enough of your driving to know that you're perhaps not always the most considerate/attentive/ (whatever) driver on the road. And certainly everyone should keep a safe distance and indicate properly so it's not bad advice, is it? Look, my partner vents, he's a guy. You vent. You're venting just now. So let me offer you some advice... Not every grumble is a plea for help. Dealing with humans - whether colleagues or asshole drivers - is at least somewhat emotionally driven. But constantly offering advice when it's not asked for is patronising. You wouldn't like it either and it's a form of entitlement. It's not just a guy thing, most parents have to deliberately un-learn it as their kids get older, and women can be patronising assholes, too. It's just that I've seen you guys make that mistake time and time again, and it's avoidable if you just apply a little thought and logic.* Just trying to help. _____ * pretty annoying, eh? But sometimes, it IS about the nail.
|
|
|
Post by ironhamster on Sept 25, 2019 3:16:39 GMT -5
I don't know. If I am grumbling, and someone has a viable solution for whatever is causing me concern, I would appreciate that.
One of the things I have done for a living is troubleshooting. I need to find the root cause of the problem. Most things can be fixed, once you know what is wrong. Most. Some things cannot be fixed.
|
|
|
Post by saarinista on Sept 25, 2019 15:42:15 GMT -5
I don't know. If I am grumbling, and someone has a viable solution for whatever is causing me concern, I would appreciate that. One of the things I have done for a living is troubleshooting. I need to find the root cause of the problem. Most things can be fixed, once you know what is wrong. Most. Some things cannot be fixed. Absolutely, some things cannot be fixed. Especially if they never worked in the first place. Or if they're already so destroyed that there's nothing left to fix. Or if the cost of fixing them is higher than what the repaired product would be. I'm sure you see the analogies to marriage here.
|
|
|
Post by Handy on Sept 25, 2019 17:57:27 GMT -5
@ ironhamster, I fixed things all of my life. The first step was always to verify the problem and then come up with possible solutions.
One therapist asked me if I ever had a car that had a problem that persisted even after I did several repairs. I said yes, my W had a mid 60's a car that stalls when it is raining or foggy and the temperature is just above freezing to maybe 45f. The idle circuit would ice up and the idle mixture jets would have frost on them until the engine ran for 5 to 10 minuets. This was a new car and I rebuilt the carburetor and even replaced the carburetor and the engine still stalled if the conditions were as described above.
The therapist told me, even though I did what seemed relevant, the car's engine still stalled. She told me some things are built so normal solutions will not work and the best thing I could do was live with the way things were.
BTW, I could drive the car without the engine stalling but my W had to restart the engine every time she came to a stop for the first 5 or 10 minuets. After the engine warmed up, the car was raring to go, all 325 HP was just waiting to be put to work.
|
|