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Post by ironhamster on Jul 12, 2019 19:12:18 GMT -5
Our wedding day was exhausting. We partied hard with our friends. We mutually agreed to table the consumation.
But, the next week on our honeymoon? I should have ended it there.
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Post by flashjohn on Jul 15, 2019 13:17:45 GMT -5
You are certainly right. Honestly, if my ExRefuser had admitted that she had a problem, and tried to do something about it, I would probably still be married to her. But 6 years of total celibacy along with her sexual insults was entirely too much. Oh no. You were absolutely right to dump her. I think there's another reason some men and women refuse to have sex: they're jerks, to use the medically inappropriate term. And there ain't no curing that. 🙄 Yes, very true.
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Post by flashjohn on Jul 15, 2019 13:26:20 GMT -5
Yes, I thought I was being a nice, understanding husband. However, after dating for 2.5 years with no sex, it is also normal to expect sex at the first opportunity.
Now, I tell people that if a spouse won't fuck on the wedding night, pack up and leave right then, and never look back.
Yes and no. I remember what A LONG day the wedding day was! After the entire wedding, dinner, gifts, etc.. then boarding a plane, arriving supper late at a hotel...I did not mind waiting until the next day. Especially since she was a virgin and I was not. The yellow flags was the "one position" and lack of desire ,to do more than the minimum. This went on for several days. It was after getting home and the constant, " I don't like that" to what where normal requests that should have been a deal breaker. My " White Knight syndrome, codependency, strong spirit of I can help you" kept me trapped for decades. ( add children to that too) Well, I understand your point. However, a normal woman or man knows that fucking on the wedding night is expected. Anyone who pretends not to know that is deliberately ignorant or just plain lying.
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Post by saarinista on Jul 15, 2019 14:15:20 GMT -5
Yes and no. I remember what A LONG day the wedding day was! After the entire wedding, dinner, gifts, etc.. then boarding a plane, arriving supper late at a hotel...I did not mind waiting until the next day. Especially since she was a virgin and I was not. The yellow flags was the "one position" and lack of desire ,to do more than the minimum. This went on for several days. It was after getting home and the constant, " I don't like that" to what where normal requests that should have been a deal breaker. My " White Knight syndrome, codependency, strong spirit of I can help you" kept me trapped for decades. ( add children to that too) Well, I understand your point. However, a normal woman or man knows that fucking on the wedding night is expected. Anyone who pretends not to know that is deliberately ignorant or just plain lying. In general, I agree. Caveat: today's "Bridal Industrial Complex" which makes $50,000++ weddings quite common* and simultaneously places far too much stress on brides to crank out the perfect day/photo op can potentially exhaust the newlyweds to where they could be forgiven for not having sex that very night. In fact, I've seen books that recommend waiting till the next day if everyone's exhausted. Or frankly, inebriated. So I could understand if everybody just cuddled the first night, I suppose. I would not give up on a marriage if the sex didn't happen until the next day. But if it doesn't happen by then, I say "Houston, we've got a problem." 🙄😔🤔 **. IMHO as a mature woman, the focus on elaborate weddings CAN detract from the focus on the MARRIAGE, especially for younger newlyweds. After such a big, fancy event, everything else can almost pale by comparison. Someone should do a peer-reviewed study on whether is the length of the marriage is inversely or directly related to the cost of the wedding. Of course it will need to be adjusted for regional cost differences and the wealth of the cohort. For a gazillion aire, a $50,000 wedding may not be anything. For someone who makes $75,000 a year, it's a different situation. Anyway, just saying....
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Post by flashjohn on Jul 15, 2019 15:25:57 GMT -5
Well, I understand your point. However, a normal woman or man knows that fucking on the wedding night is expected. Anyone who pretends not to know that is deliberately ignorant or just plain lying. In general, I agree. Caveat: today's "Bridal Industrial Complex" which makes $50,000++ weddings quite common* and simultaneously places far too much stress on brides to crank out the perfect day/photo op can potentially exhaust the newlyweds to where they could be forgiven for not having sex that very night. In fact, I've seen books that recommend waiting till the next day if everyone's exhausted. Or frankly, inebriated. So I could understand if everybody just cuddled the first night, I suppose. I would not give up on a marriage if the sex didn't happen until the next day. But if it doesn't happen by then, I say "Houston, we've got a problem." 🙄😔🤔 **. IMHO as a mature woman, the focus on elaborate weddings CAN detract from the focus on the MARRIAGE, especially for younger newlyweds. After such a big, fancy event, everything else can almost pale by comparison. Someone should do a peer-reviewed study on whether is the length of the marriage is inversely or directly related to the cost of the wedding. Of course it will need to be adjusted for regional cost differences and the wealth of the cohort. For a gazillion aire, a $50,000 wedding may not be anything. For someone who makes $75,000 a year, it's a different situation. Anyway, just saying.... I think that there is entirely too much emphasis on the wedding and entirely too little emphasis on the marriage.
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Post by Handy on Jul 15, 2019 22:58:55 GMT -5
Saarinista "Bridal Industrial Complex" which makes $50,000++ weddings quite common*
$50K student loans and $50K weddings, just sound so fake and unnecessary to me. Just call me Scrooge.
My opinion why $50K weddings make the news or TV is to make it seem normal so people overspend on their own weddings. This brings in more revenue for the wedding industry, is what it is all about. The concept is called marketing, get people to buy more-pay more so companies sell and earn more money.
I bought the marriage license at the court house, paid for the blood tests, gave the minister a modest fee, the family church auxiliary did the reception set up, cake ice-cream and non-alcoholic drinks for the reception. Father in law bought the flowers for the church chaple.
Wedding around 3PM, reception, go home to change clothes, drive 70 miles to the "bridal suite" take a quick shower and Sex by 9PM.
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Post by isthisit on Jul 16, 2019 1:13:46 GMT -5
Saarinista "Bridal Industrial Complex" which makes $50,000++ weddings quite common*$50K student loans and $50K weddings, just sound so fake and unnecessary to me. Just call me Scrooge. My opinion why $50K weddings make the news or TV is to make it seem normal so people overspend on their own weddings. This brings in more revenue for the wedding industry, is what it is all about. The concept is called marketing, get people to buy more-pay more so companies sell and earn more money. I bought the marriage license at the court house, paid for the blood tests, gave the minister a modest fee, the family church auxiliary did the reception set up, cake ice-cream and non-alcoholic drinks for the reception. Father in law bought the flowers for the church chaple. Wedding around 3PM, reception, go home to change clothes, drive 70 miles to the "bridal suite" take a quick shower and Sex by 9PM. Handy Please explain blood tests? I cannot imagine why these would be required to get married? To briefly contribute to this thread- it seems that my story is somewhat unusual. I wanted a tiny wedding with only parents and siblings there as for me it is a deeply meaningful and therefore private event. I also loathe attention and fuss. In addition I did not want to waste a shed load of money on nonsense expenses. So, not your traditional bride. (Sadly I am an only daughter, my parents were big into showing off so it turned into a circus as I was daft enough to acquiesce to their wishes.) My wedding night was ...rampant. My five week honeymoon was.... relentless. Makes me sad thinking about it now actually. So while I agree that a sexless wedding night and honeymoon is a total disgrace and yes I would have unilaterally walked without question, mine was wonderful and I ended up here too ☹️.
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Post by Handy on Jul 16, 2019 2:22:07 GMT -5
Blood test for STI-STD were required in my area before a marriage license issued by the county court house. The test was developed in 1906 and triggers a false positive for several other conditions. It was a hoop to jump through so I did it.
The county also issued a notice in a local newspaper the names for the marriage license. The license was official-legal only after the marrying official signed the license. That was done after the official wedding ceremony and handed to us at the wedding reception. The minister told us to keep the license with us at all times during the honeymoon in case we had to prove we were married, say when registering at a hotel/motel.
Yes, there were a few hotels/motels mom&pop establishments that wouldn't rent a room to unmarried couples. It was very very rare but it did happen.
Before we were married, we both lived very far away from her and my home and when we traveled we stayed in motels and were never asked if we were married. Maybe this minister's advice was something from his early married days or just some more conservative religious rules.
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Post by isthisit on Jul 16, 2019 4:13:01 GMT -5
Wow! Pre-marital blood tests for STI’s!!! I considered that possibility and discounted it as daft. It’s a good job those tests are out of commission today. My mum worked in our local GUM clinic for 25 years and tells me there are only a few people we know who have not been through there. They’d be testing for those without...... Nice story though.
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Post by 2019change on Jul 16, 2019 10:16:48 GMT -5
When you get to the stage where you have to bribe someone to try and have sex, dinners out, shoes etc then that's a loss all round. It has to chip at your own respect and your spouse will use it another excuse to turn you down. "You expect me to have sex when your do something nice..."
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 1, 2019 16:17:15 GMT -5
Tonight I took my wife out for dinner. Cheap dinner, but still. I also bought her a new pair of shoes for her work. When we went to bed I felt her breast and she completely revoked me. Now I’m on the couch as usual. I really want to leave her. Well actually, I want her to leave me. We had talked about it earlier in the year. As far as talking with her goes. Like trying to pry open something. Half answers at best. Non answers a lot too. Seems like it’s not going to happen, for now anyways. Here’s my problem. I can’t stand the idea of her sleeping with someone else after we split if we did. The very idea drives me angry. Was it hard for others out there or was it easy to get over. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me but the idea, I’m angry right now just thinking about it. I've been through a few variants of this in different scenarios: 1. A sexless marriage. 2. A period of that sexless marriage in which I'd discovered an affair. 3. A period after the affair in which we attempted a reconciliation but she pined for him 4. A period in which we explored consensual non-monogamy on both sides, but not including her former affair partner 5. A period in which we abandoned all that, and tried basics. 6. A separation. This took a few years to get through all of it, but what I've learned, and observed in others in my post-married life has been remarkably consistent, I think, you'd like to care less than you do. If you did, it would open options by reducing the sense of threat or loss you perceive. This is a gambler's mentality - the fear of getting up from the slot machine after an hour of sunk cost, and now someone else will pull once and hit your jackpot. I let go by hammering my heart into understanding that what I feared losing was already gone. I then let go my sense of entitlement to a future that had not happened. I focused on the present and the past. When I did that, I found that in every way, I could see that I did not have a sexual relationship with my wife. I'll say that again. I did not have a sexual relationship with my wife. I stopped finishing that thought with "but if I do X, then I will restore it." I allowed myself to back up from the thought that it was my responsibility to restore it, if she was not able or willing. I allowed myself to realize that while my goal was to restore it with her, that it seemed unlikely this was a shared goal, and that her goal seemed to be to justify and rationalize her lack of investment in that part of her relationship with me. If it was a shared goal, she would be just as invested as me, especially knowing the stakes. So, again, it wasn't that I was at risk of losing something, or that some other man would enjoy what should be mine. It was that it did not exist. What I feared losing was gone. So what I really was afraid of was admitting this truth. It's like racing to a murder scene, when rationally, there's no urgency at all. What are you going to prevent? Suppose you split. Do you - does she - honestly think that's it? Like, she'll never have sex again? Come on. It takes an ENORMOUS amount of effort to come to this realization, that this celibacy on her part is an accurate reflection of her feeling and investment, and isn't some kind of crossed wire or emotional injury that you have the power to heal. If you are able to come to that realization, then you will realize that your house isn't just on fire, but that it is burnt down already and that you are a ghost. You need to let go the sense of propriety that anchors you there. If you have that wrong, then maybe the ball of choice goes to her to DO SOMETHING to fix this. But don't count on it because she's not doing this as an oversight. It's not like you haven't talked and the stakes aren't apparent. In truth, she's also in a celibate marriage. She doesn't have to be, but she's choosing that over the alternative, so it gives you and idea. That woman isn't actually interested in you. Regardless of what you do, she's not going to be. If you leave, she may resist - it's going to be painful for both of you for all kinds of valid reasons. She may even become compliant and try exhibiting the behavior you want, but if that's what it takes, why isn't she now? And, you are right to feel upset at your sunk cost so far, but to get out of the leg trap you are in, you need to find a way or a story that you can tell yourself that justifies it so it doesn't break your heart or leave you snarled into a furious ball, bitter and mean. Because, she IS going to have sex with some other guy. And she IS going to tell the story to someone who cares about her, about how she didn't want to be with you for whatever her reasons turn out to be. It's going to rip your guts out. You'll feel jealousy. You'll wonder what's so great about him. You'll feel uncomfortable about sharing space with her in and among her friends that see them together, knowing that you are the ex guy. It's like a field amputation - the level of pain - especially when it happens. In my case, the day after we talked it out and decided, she left her phone open for me to see her personals ad, open on one of several responses. So, she's likely to get right to it as well. But that says something as well. Despite being disrespectful and hurtful, it shows that she's also trapped in a relationship that isn't working for her too. It took over a year for me I think, of almost like a diet for the heart. Of busying myself and divesting my attention from her and cleaning her out. removing pictures and expectations, changing routines, of making new friends and seeking new activities - of filling the crater with plans and new experiences and changing my life again, before I was able to see her like a regular human being - like anyone else would. Time plus activities - and one day I looked at her as she came to pick up the kids - and I had no romantic investment or hope in her. I looked and wondered why it was I had been so consumed. Indifferent. The sense of hurt has abated but lingers, but the lack of desire for her, when it finally came - really made a huge difference. I flinch when she touches me by accident now, a bit like I might with a co-worker. It doesn't make me crazy, what she does, whatever her business is. I've got other things to do.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 2, 2019 7:49:15 GMT -5
Good to hear from you Apocrypha. Appreciate the semi-update via this post. Hope all is well.
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Post by michael on Aug 2, 2019 8:14:34 GMT -5
Tonight I took my wife out for dinner. Cheap dinner, but still. I also bought her a new pair of shoes for her work. When we went to bed I felt her breast and she completely revoked me. Now I’m on the couch as usual. I really want to leave her. Well actually, I want her to leave me. We had talked about it earlier in the year. As far as talking with her goes. Like trying to pry open something. Half answers at best. Non answers a lot too. Seems like it’s not going to happen, for now anyways. Here’s my problem. I can’t stand the idea of her sleeping with someone else after we split if we did. The very idea drives me angry. Was it hard for others out there or was it easy to get over. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me but the idea, I’m angry right now just thinking about it. I've been through a few variants of this in different scenarios: 1. A sexless marriage. 2. A period of that sexless marriage in which I'd discovered an affair. 3. A period after the affair in which we attempted a reconciliation but she pined for him 4. A period in which we explored consensual non-monogamy on both sides, but not including her former affair partner 5. A period in which we abandoned all that, and tried basics. 6. A separation. This took a few years to get through all of it, but it's been remarkably consistent, what I've learned, and observed in others in my post-married life. I gather, I think, that you'd like to care less than you do, and that will open options for you by reducing the sense of threat or loss you perceive. I get it - it's a bit of a gambler's mentality - the fear of getting up from the slot machine after an hour of sunk cost, and now someone else will pull once and hit your jackpot. The way I was able to hammer myself into letting go of that fear was to let go my sense of entitlement to a future that had not happened. Instead, I focused on the present and the past. When I did that, I found that in every way, I could see that I did not have a sexual relationship with my wife. I'll say that again. I did not have a sexual relationship with my wife. I wanted one. I used to have one a while back. But I didn't have one at all, and that was not compatible with my view of marriage. It wasn't that I was at risk of not having one, or of losing it. It was that it did not exist. In truth, a random attractive guy from a Starbucks line-up who said the right charming thing, actually had a higher prospect of delighting her in a sexual way, than I did. She was done. She claims she still loved me - and maybe that's true, but I don't marry everyone I love, and loving someone isn't grounds for marrying them. I love my buddy Mike, but I don't want to hug and kiss him, you know? It takes an ENORMOUS amount of effort to come to this realization, that this celibacy on her part is an accurate reflection of her feeling and investment, and isn't some kind of crossed wire or emotional injury that you need to or are able to uncode. If you are able to come to that realization, then you will realize that your house isn't just on fire, but that it is burnt down already and that you are a ghost. You need to let go the sense of propriety that anchors you there. That woman isn't actually interested in you. Regardless of what you do, she's not going to be. If you leave, she may resist - it's going to be painful for both of you for all kinds of valid reasons. She may even become compliant and try exhibiting the behavior you want, but if that's what it takes, why isn't she now? So if you don't have a sexual relationship with her, then what's to lose that isn't gone anyway? And, you are right to feel upset at your sunk cost so far. You need to find a way or a story that you can tell yourself that justifies it so it doesn't break your heart or leave you snarled into a furious ball, bitter and mean. You can say "you know you tried everything" - that's one I used, and use to this day. I have the assurance that I tried things that other people who left earlier, trying fewer things, don't have. I think I might regret the cost of that to me if I think on it too much, but I try to move forward without dwelling there. Because, she IS going to have sex with some other guy. And she IS going to tell the story to someone who cares about her, about how she didn't want to with you for whatever her reasons turn out to be. It's going to rip your guts out. You'll feel jealousy. You'll wonder what's so great about him. You'll feel uncomfortable about sharing space with her in and among her friends that see them together, knowing that you are the ex guy. It's like a field amputation - the level of pain - especially when it happens. In my case, the day after we talked it out and decided, she left her phone open for me to see her personals ad, open on one of several responses. So, she's likely to get right to it as well. But that says something as well. Despite being disrespectful and hurtful, it shows that she's also trapped in a relationship that isn't working for her too. It took over a year for me I think, of almost like a diet for the heart. Of busying myself and divesting my attention from her and cleaning her out. removing pictures and expectations, changing routines, of making new friends and seeking new activities - of filling the crater with plans and new experiences and changing my life again, before I was able to see her like a regular human being - like anyone else would. Time plus activities - and one day I looked at her as she came to pick up the kids - and I had no romantic investment or hope in her. I looked and wondered why it was I had been so consumed. Indifferent. The sense of hurt hasn't abated much, but the lack of desire for her, when it finally came - really made a huge difference. I flinch when she touches me by accident now, a bit like I might with a co-worker. Thanks. I had given up on this thread. I’m not sure if I’m ready mentally but your post is reassuring. BTW. We are going away this weekend for a tournament for one of the kids. Getting a hotel with two beds. One for the kids and one for her and me. This should be a little awkward since we haven’t shared a bed in years except for maybe couple nights. Of course there will be no intimacy but I wonder what would happen if a touch her by accident.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 2, 2019 12:05:19 GMT -5
Thanks. I had given up on this thread. I’m not sure if I’m ready mentally but your post is reassuring. BTW. We are going away this weekend for a tournament for one of the kids. Getting a hotel with two beds. One for the kids and one for her and me. This should be a little awkward since we haven’t shared a bed in years except for maybe couple nights. Of course there will be no intimacy but I wonder what would happen if a touch her by accident. You know, I'm not sure if this is universally relevant here, but my realization that it was over over happened when I was returning from just such a weekend. While I had stressed about the sleeping arrangements a bit, it wasn't that that did it. It was our joyless family lunch, and looking over at a slightly older couple - maybe in their 50's - who wandered into the restaurant and had dressed up a bit for each other. I observed that there was something about them that was careful and aware about each other. Attentive and generous. I was flooded with an overwhelming sense of sadness for the 2 hour ride home. Intense sadness, a mile deep. That evening, I had a conversation with her, asked if she was still in this - and she said "I don't know." That was below my threshold for a second date, let alone a marriage. I informed her that we would separate.
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Post by orangepeel on Aug 2, 2019 13:17:05 GMT -5
All you can do, and it turns out that it's the best thing you can do both for you and for your family, is be the best version of yourself. Being a thoughtful spouse or partner is one thing but being a doormat is another. Also, sex is never, ever, ever quid pro quo. It's not a barter system, it's a caring mutual part of your whole relationship. Doing everything in relationship for rewards or gratification of any kind from another is codependency. I don't remember where I heard it but I've found it to be pretty good: A man marries and woman thinking that she won't change but she does. A woman marries a man thinking that he'll change and he doesn't. That saying at the end is brilliant.
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