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Post by sadkat on Nov 19, 2019 12:12:54 GMT -5
Love grew slowly for me until it was counter productive. I say this because I felt responsible for providing for my future wife before it was more than like and lets do some things that were entertaining or exciting. I was "old school" where the man had to finance the needs of the wife and kids or you were not a "man." SO with love came a lot of responsibility. I need to explore this a bit Handy. You say you felt financially responsible for your future wife. Is that when you knew you loved her- when you found yourself being financially responsible for her? Why was love counterproductive? Yes, your generation was raised with the idea that a man is responsible for his family but what does that have to do with love? How did your love for your wife grow over time? If you were to exit your marriage and begin a relationship with someone new- how would you know you loved her?
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Post by sadkat on Nov 19, 2019 12:30:00 GMT -5
I was right there with you til that last bit DryCreek. Stereotypical people (especially those we have a tendency to idealize) often don’t turn out as a “perfect fit”. On the flip side, though, getting to know someone without having the benefit of seeing them can add a whole new dimension to how love might grow over time.
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Post by sadkat on Nov 19, 2019 12:34:39 GMT -5
sunnysean- I’m interested in your comment about “an attraction that transcends traditional norms”. Can you explain further? Do you mean physical attraction or are you referring more to sexual chemistry? And.. I agree with your comment about getting twitchy when you’re not with a person you love.
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sunnysean
Junior Member
Posts: 59
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by sunnysean on Nov 19, 2019 14:23:48 GMT -5
sunnysean - I’m interested in your comment about “an attraction that transcends traditional norms”. Can you explain further? Do you mean physical attraction or are you referring more to sexual chemistry? I think I mean more or a physical/magnetic attraction. Here is an example. I hope I don't sound like a stalker or a perv. So there is the cashier at a local fuel station. She is probably in her mid 30's. If you asked me what "my type" is, I wouldn't describe her at all. I think that's what I mean by transcends traditional norms. She might not be my type, but she fascinates me. I hate to try to describe her because I would use words that might be less than flattering. But, when you put all her traits together, they fit perfectly, and she is very beautiful. It's natural and unique. Often when I fill up my car, I go in to buy a drink to see if she's working. They don't have uniforms, so it is always interesting what she decides to wear. It's never too revealing, but she seems very confident in her skin and chooses clothing that is different, almost hipster. It always fits and shows some curves. I do not flirt with her, and she doesn't flirt with me. I try not to stare, but I like it when the place is busy, and I have to wait in line so I can watch her interactions with the customers. I have no idea what's she like when she's not working, but she is always kind to everyone. I don't fantasize about her sexually or anything like that. She's just magnetic. My wife has the same effect on me, but I think its more of an exercise to talk about an attraction like that when it's someone you don't have feelings for, and you are not every going to pursue.
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Post by isthisit on Nov 19, 2019 15:39:28 GMT -5
How do you know when you love someone? Does love grow slowly over time or do you believe in love at first sight? Great question sadkat . I was super sceptical about love at first sight right up until I met H. I viewed those (usually women in my circle) claiming this as a bit desperate and looking for a bloke at all costs. However, when I first set eyes on H across a room (it was a swimming pool actually) I just could not believe my eyes. I stared and stared, I just couldn’t take my eyes off him. Despite knowing nothing at all about him I knew right there that I had met the love of my life. I could not stop thinking about him, could not bring myself to speak to him, and didn’t dare ask about his circumstances for fear of the emotional toll if it turned out he had a W and a bunch of kids. I have never felt this way before or since. When he finally spoke to me (asking to use a piece of equipment I was holding) he asked my name and I was unable to articulate any words- the world seemed to stop spinning, time stopped and angels sang. I knew at that moment that this was a seminal moment in my life, and that he would always know my name. Downright weird all of it. Once we got chatting I fell headlong in love and spent 5 speechlessly happy years by his side. He really was made just for me. He was the centre of my universe and I did all I could to make us both gratuitously happy, and loved every minute of it. Then he got a hobby and it all went totally tits up.
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 19, 2019 20:09:54 GMT -5
I was right there with you til that last bit DryCreek. Stereotypical people (especially those we have a tendency to idealize) often don’t turn out as a “perfect fit”. On the flip side, though, getting to know someone without having the benefit of seeing them can add a whole new dimension to how love might grow over time. I guess my thought being that love at first sight might work if the personality happened to match the fantasy projections, but I agree that there are so many personalized nuances that someone is probably not being very discerning if they don’t factor those in. I totally agree that the dynamic of meeting someone here is very interesting - a common pain / appreciation / interest, and usually so much distance that you’re forced to have lengthy conversations and learn about each other deeply, simply as a way to stay engaged with each other. The end effect being that people who meet here (at least the ones we hear about) seem to match really well in person even though they became attracted long before meeting physically. Stating the obvious... though a physical attraction may be the catalyst to meeting initially for many folks, real depth comes from non-physical elements, whether in person or remote.
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 19, 2019 20:13:35 GMT -5
Then he got a hobby and it all went totally tits up. Holy crap, that’s awful. I feel I should know this from your posts, but what hobby led him so badly astray?
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Post by Handy on Nov 19, 2019 21:50:53 GMT -5
Sadkat You say you felt financially responsible for your future wife. Is that when you knew you loved her- when you found yourself being financially responsible for her?
I came from a family that struggled financially and love counted mostly as a secondary or side issue as an additional perk. What was more important than love was compatibility and having similar goals in life with similar motivations and moral ideas. I saw love in other couples fade and the reasons it faded so I wanted to escape the issues that caused the separation of the couple. Feeling financially responsible was one of my inner beliefs and once I thought I could be financially capable for a family I just took the next step. My GF/W seemed to be willing to live a lifestyle I could afford so I did the next step. Early in our relationship, she wanted to get married and felt "I was the one" as they say but I knew I couldn't provide for her and kids so we sort of broke up. I was supporting my mother and my GF at the time wanted to move to San Francisco and I knew I couldn't afford to live there and financially help my mother so the split happened.
To me if a person loves someone, they need to be supported in a style that helps them continue to be happy. My liking someone and knowing that woman will be downgrading her lifestyle just bothers me too much to pursue what I want without considering her wants, potential satisfaction and welfare. A potential (HER) has to be satisfied with what I think I can accomplish in the future or it is my guess the relationship will sour.
What happened was I acquired several things and goals but it took me working several jobs and that part didn't go well after so many years.
Yes, your generation was raised with the idea that a man is responsible for his family but what does that have to do with love?
Love is more than lust or attraction. I looked at relationships from a point of not only starting something I am attracted to but what are the long term responsibilities. To me operating on the idea you love someone also means you are willing to take on most all of the responsibilities to make things work.
Just a side note, I didn't get the feeling of being loves as a child. I knew my mother cared for and about me but with being the 7 kid and living in poverty, a person learns to depend on yourself and not look for other's praise or attention. When my step father showed up when I was in 2nd grade I learned love was conditional and limited. I did kid things that got me in trouble so I learned to distance myself and be part of the background and hopefully not being observed very often. I am not saying things were all bad but it worked better being detached and mostly on my own. Maybe I never learned to be loved and accepted for just the "good old part of me." I did learn responsibility. I learned what you can do or accomplish was what counted and any short comings took away points very fast so I was always on guard to not screw up.
How did your love for your wife grow over time?
Well there was some lust, some sexual excitement I only had with my G/F and I liked how it felt. We were both away from home working on a similar project. At first I felt what we had was infatuation and it might end. When I found out what her future wishes were (lifestyle) I got cold feet and we cooled-it romantically but still did things together. She got tired of that and dated other guys but that wasn't working for her so we didn't contact each other very often. I moved back to my home state, then there was a period of no contact. I was doing better financially and she sent me a Christmas card so I invited her to my home state for the holiday and things got back to a semi-serious relationship but still 500 miles apart
Why was love counterproductive?
Me working 2 and 3 jobs wasn't enough free time to keep my W happy and meeting her attention needs. I was swamped paying for things I felt the family needed. Then when the kids were old enough to be on their own, my W got a job and was exposed to a program to encourage women to live their own independent life style, she got a part time job and her money was hers but the "man of the house" was responsible to keep the home going without her help.
I even enrolled in a "Women's Issues" class at college to understand the changing dynamics that this so called "women's independence" movement that sort of became popular in more liberal circles. I made some changing, hoping things would be like they were 25+ years ago. At first I went along with the so called "repressive male" crap some women were spouting and decided my W could have her economic independent play money. More than half of her income went to shopping addiction traits she pursued. I put up with that too long until I decided to emotionally detach. She moved out of the bedroom many years before I gave up. So my opinion is what I tried was counterproductive.
If you were to exit your marriage and begin a relationship with someone new- how would you know you loved her?
Good question. I really would have to experience some admiration and acceptance to give an honest answer. I suppose I have been too responsible in some areas to look at the concept of "love" separate from compatibility, and responsibility for each other to talk about love as a separate concept.
One woman on another forum we were on for 5+ years gave her opinion of me as a “locked down lover.” In other words the love is there but I keep it under control too much.
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Post by sadkat on Nov 19, 2019 22:43:31 GMT -5
Handy- there’s a lot here and I’m really not sure how to respond or even if I should. I’m saddened that your youth gave you a very different perspective of love, compatibility, and responsibility. Admittedly, I did not grow up in poverty so cannot relate at all to how your growing up years shaped your perceptions. But... I do take issue with your thoughts on “women’s independence”. I’ve worked since I was in my late teens. My motivation for working and having a career has always been to contribute to the quality of my life. Later, when I got married and had a child, I progressed my career with the intent of contributing to my family’s quality of life. Never did I consider the money I earned as “play money”. I paid the bills right alongside my husband. I detect a note of negativity from your statements about “women’s independence” and I’m sorry you feel this way. For you to shy away from a relationship because you think you cannot provide a woman with the quality of life she “wants” is just sad. These days, some women are more than willing to contribute to the household income and to work with their spouses to improve the quality of their family’s life. I believe you are clinging to past beliefs that are doing you no favors, my friend.
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Post by Handy on Nov 19, 2019 23:55:15 GMT -5
sadkat . For you to shy away from a relationship because you think you cannot provide a woman with the quality of life she “wants” is just sad. These days, some women are more than willing to contribute to the household income and to work with their spouses to improve the quality of their family’s life. I believe you are clinging to past beliefs that are doing you no favors, my friend. Sadkat, I know you are correct in what you posted and that I am too influenced by the past. I intellectually know some-most women want the best for their family so I try to approach people with what you posted in mind. Do I trust it to continue that way? Sometimes yes and some times no. I know of women like you describe and I also know women that spend what is ever available. Retail therapy is fairly common. So what is "love?" I ask myself that. I guess I need to experience it first hand before I can write about it and really know what I am talking about. I had it at one time but the world I live in has changed quite a bit and so have I. I know what was love, that some of the old version exists but some parts of it have changed or at least a person's perception of love is changed. Myself and a guy I do some things with have the same definition of our respective marriages. We describe our relationship status as "married but on my own." OTH, several people I know were really worried about me when I had my appendix removed and I was out of circulation for over a month. When I did meet them I got some really emotionally connected hugs. Maybe that is the best physical representation of love among older folks.
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Post by isthisit on Nov 20, 2019 1:59:01 GMT -5
Then he got a hobby and it all went totally tits up. Holy crap, that’s awful. I feel I should know this from your posts, but what hobby led him so badly astray? He chose to restore a classic car. This project began when I was 34/40 pregnant. He uttered the immortal line “because I will have more time when the baby is here”. Tells you what you need to know huh?
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Post by isthisit on Nov 20, 2019 2:25:50 GMT -5
Handy - there’s a lot here and I’m really not sure how to respond or even if I should. I’m saddened that your youth gave you a very different perspective of love, compatibility, and responsibility. Admittedly, I did not grow up in poverty so cannot relate at all to how your growing up years shaped your perceptions. But... I do take issue with your thoughts on “women’s independence”. I’ve worked since I was in my late teens. My motivation for working and having a career has always been to contribute to the quality of my life. Later, when I got married and had a child, I progressed my career with the intent of contributing to my family’s quality of life. Never did I consider the money I earned as “play money”. I paid the bills right alongside my husband. I detect a note of negativity from your statements about “women’s independence” and I’m sorry you feel this way. For you to shy away from a relationship because you think you cannot provide a woman with the quality of life she “wants” is just sad. These days, some women are more than willing to contribute to the household income and to work with their spouses to improve the quality of their family’s life. I believe you are clinging to past beliefs that are doing you no favors, my friend. I simply cannot like this enough. I could have written every word. Since joining this forum I have been shocked at the sense of expectation and entitlement amongst the W’s of some of the men here. It seems common for these women to use their uterus and then feel a sense of justification to be economically inactive for the rest of their days. Unbelievable today. Why on Earth do you guys this applies to fall for it? Is there not an overwhelming temptation to say “shift your lardy arse lady and go and earn some money”? For me in case you’re wondering H was quite willing to support me to be a SAHM, imagine where I would be now with that choice?
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Post by angeleyes65 on Nov 20, 2019 8:22:09 GMT -5
How do I know when Im in love with someone? When my life is better when we are together. When I look forward to them being there and miss there presence when they aren't. When I can trust them with my feelings. I don't necessarily believe in love at first sight. Attraction yes. And in some cases it works out in others it turns out that's all there was. My love grew slow. With both my ex and my current boyfriend. The issue with my ex was I was young and I think trying to escape my home situation and be independent. And I was caught up with the thought of love and marriage. But he also changed, when I was dating him I was the center of his world I never knew him to he selfish at all. After kids things shifted. Handy when I married neither of us came from money his mom worked her whole life my mom was a stay at home mom. He joined the Marines out of high school. He told me he wanted me to stay home and he would take care of me. He didn't want me exhausted like his mom. He worried and didn't feel worthy if he got laid off. While I appreciated staying home with the kids, I never felt like money was his sole responsibility. And I immediately got a. Job anytime I needed to. After awhile I went to work because the kids were in school and I felt lonely and trapped. Me going to work resulted in even less attention from him. My money was never play money. It went in the checking account and went to bills and savings just like his. Years later looking back I feel me not working was more assurance for him that I wouldn't/couldn't leave. Your work is not the sum of what you make. What's important isn't what you can give her financially but what you can give her emotionally.
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Post by Handy on Nov 20, 2019 9:35:38 GMT -5
Isthisit Since joining this forum I have been shocked at the sense of expectation and entitlement amongst the W’s of some of the men here. Angeleyes65 He didn't want me exhausted like his mom.Like Angeleyes65 said, I saw my mother occasionally work a few days a week and how over whelmed she was and I didn't want my W to have to live like that. I also was a product of the late 1940's and 1950's where most W's stayed home and the house and kids was their domain. My W worked the first year we were married and then she was placed in a position she couldn't handle and life at home changed. I also got a better job out of state and we moved to her parents house because they moved south for the winter. With almost no rent to pay my W wanted a baby and she had morning sickness so bad it was all she could do to get up at meal time and then went back to bed about an hour later. How does a caring H counter that but to go along with it and assume he is in-charge of bringing in the money to keep the relationship going? When her parents decided to sell their house and move to their winter area, we bought a different house and kid #2 was on the way shortly there after. I was working 6 days a week (also a common thing in the 1950's in my childhood) and we could afford to live on just my income. As the kids got older, living expenses increased and I took on more work to keep out of debt. It wasn't until I was supposed to have a second back surgery that my W decided she needed a job that paid a decent wage. She had a part time job in the lunchroom at a school prior to that that was about 2 hrs, on school days. That is where the "her money" started and I was OK with that because it relived some money drain on her hobbies (pet care) and personal care items. The less attention to my W also is a mistake I made so count me in with Angeleye's former H. At work everyone was worth what they brought in for the company so a person's self worth partially became how much they could earn and not so much about what they brought to the relationship or organization in social contributions. It is a common work mentality that caries over into a man's social and family life.
When I had my second back injury, I was off work for 3 years (I had disability income insurance) and felt worthless at times. I went to college to enter a new line of work and applied for 75 jobs that I didn't get, which also mad me feel "less than." I finally took a job I didn't want and wasn't suited to do just to go back to work. Meanwhile my W also went back to school and finally took a job she didn't want just to earn some money. Things eventually got a little better but not by much.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 20, 2019 10:06:09 GMT -5
sunnysean - I’m interested in your comment about “an attraction that transcends traditional norms”. Can you explain further? Do you mean physical attraction or are you referring more to sexual chemistry? I think I mean more or a physical/magnetic attraction. Here is an example. I hope I don't sound like a stalker or a perv. So there is the cashier at a local fuel station. She is probably in her mid 30's. If you asked me what "my type" is, I wouldn't describe her at all. I think that's what I mean by transcends traditional norms. She might not be my type, but she fascinates me. I hate to try to describe her because I would use words that might be less than flattering. But, when you put all her traits together, they fit perfectly, and she is very beautiful. It's natural and unique. Often when I fill up my car, I go in to buy a drink to see if she's working. They don't have uniforms, so it is always interesting what she decides to wear. It's never too revealing, but she seems very confident in her skin and chooses clothing that is different, almost hipster. It always fits and shows some curves. I do not flirt with her, and she doesn't flirt with me. I try not to stare, but I like it when the place is busy, and I have to wait in line so I can watch her interactions with the customers. I have no idea what's she like when she's not working, but she is always kind to everyone. I don't fantasize about her sexually or anything like that. She's just magnetic. My wife has the same effect on me, but I think its more of an exercise to talk about an attraction like that when it's someone you don't have feelings for, and you are not every going to pursue. A very, off to the side note: Take a risk, be bold, show some confidence. Start giving, and enjoy the happiness you get in return! Look up some Holiday, seasonal, jokes, or gas station jokes. I do this every day in my line of work. I fuel trucks several times in 4 different counties, and I work with front desk employees every day. These are the people who share the brunt of complaints, and people who are 'in a hurry'. These 'customer service' people ask me " need anything else?" I respond, "yes. ..have you heard any jokes today?" (this is stepping out of your comfort zone) I love to see their lit up face!! The most common response I get? They say " No. Let's hear one. I could use one today!" ( many times they will share one back with you) Also, give this woman a compliment! Don't tell us, or keep it to yourself, tell her the next time you see her, " I hope you don't mind me saying, that looks very nice on you, you have great taste in how you dress!"
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