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Post by baza on Aug 9, 2018 21:50:56 GMT -5
*Choosing* to stay.
That is the key component in this.
Just as it is in choosing to leave.
You do your sums for your unique situation in your unique way, based on the best possible advice you can source, to arrive at a decision that is in your best longer term best interests. Staying, or leaving.
And your sums add up to staying in your marriage.
So there you are, having fully considered all your options, and on your sums, you make your choice.
You are going to stay.
Now comes the difficult bit.
You've got to take ownership of, and responsibility for, that choice.
Having made the choice you have to live it and the consequences that go with it.
Your choice is entirely on you, there's no one else to blame, there's no one else to hold accountable for your choice.
Your choice is on you. (just as it is for your ILIASM siblings who's sums came up with a different answer)
That is pretty sobering and intimidating stuff...but there's no way around it.
No-one gets a pass.
You make your evaluation of your situation having explored all your options
You make your choice.
You wear whatever consequences ensue from your choice.
Staying ? - a perfectly valid choice, which you own.
But have some empathy for your ILIASM siblings who's sums came up with leaving as being in their longer term best interests, as they are wrestling with the exact same difficulty of choice - and the consequences of it - as you are.
Edited to add - Likewise leavers. The stayers are wrestling with the same thing as you.
If there is one thing common and uniting to this ILIASM group, it is this.
The obligation to make fully informed choices.
Whether staying or leaving, (both perfectly legitimate choices), that obligation is common to us all.
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
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Choosing.
Aug 9, 2018 23:20:04 GMT -5
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Post by catsloveme on Aug 9, 2018 23:20:04 GMT -5
*Choosing* to stay. That is the key component in this. Just as it is in choosing to leave. You do your sums for your unique situation in your unique way, based on the best possible advice you can source, to arrive at a decision that is in your best longer term best interests. Staying, or leaving. And your sums add up to staying in your marriage. So there you are, having fully considered all your options, and on your sums, you make your choice. You are going to stay. Now comes the difficult bit. You've got to take ownership of, and responsibility for, that choice. Having made the choice you have to live it and the consequences that go with it. Your choice is entirely on you, there's no one else to blame, there's no one else to hold accountable for your choice. Your choice is on you. (just as it is for your ILIASM siblings who's sums came up with a different answer) That is pretty sobering and intimidating stuff...but there's no way around it. No-one gets a pass. You make your evaluation of your situation having explored all your options You make your choice. You wear whatever consequences ensue from your choice. Staying ? - a perfectly valid choice, which you own. But have some empathy for your ILIASM siblings who's sums came up with leaving as being in their longer term best interests, as they are wrestling with the exact same difficulty of choice - and the consequences of it - as you are. If there is one thing common and uniting to this ILIASM group, it is this. The obligation to make fully informed choices. Whether staying or leaving, (both perfectly legitimate choices), that obligation is common to us all. I think *choosing*—that is, consciously choosing your course of action, whether that is to stay or to leave—is the single biggest step in moving forward, no matter what outcome you’re working toward. *Choosing* is regaining control. It is moving forward with intention. *Choosing* is pulling your head out of the sands of denial and inertia and seeing with clear eyes and an open mind and making the best choices you can for whatever path you’re on, for whatever choice you’ve made. baza, I’m curious about your statement ”Staying ? - a perfectly valid choice, which you own. But have some empathy for your ILIASM siblings who's sums came up with leaving as being in their longer term best interests, as they are wrestling with the exact same difficulty of choice - and the consequences of it - as you are.” Do you feel that those who have or are choosing to stay (regardless of their reasons) do not have or do not display empathy for those who have chosen the path of leaving? |
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Post by baza on Aug 9, 2018 23:58:08 GMT -5
I am suggesting that we sometimes forget that both "leavers" and "stayers" essentially face the exact same dilemma in as much as the process of making a fully informed choice is just as difficult, just as angst ridden, just as challenging for "stayers" as it is for "leavers". I don't think that that process was any easier (or harder) for Sister choosinghappy (leaving) or Sister catsloveme (staying) and it won't be any easier for persons who are presently "fence sitting" and are yet to put their deal right under the microscope. I can see on a re-read of my post what you are getting at though, so I will edit that bit by adding - "Likewise leavers. The stayers are wrestling with the same thing as you." In any event, it is a bit of a sidebar to the main thrust of the post - which is about the necessity to make a fully informed choice, and own it. |
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Post by choosinghappy on Aug 10, 2018 6:48:09 GMT -5
catsloveme I love the sentence about “moving forward with intention” no matter what your decision is. Yes, I made the opposite choice of others here and decided to leave my SM. But if others choose to stay that is perfectly valid, as baza says. It’s the “staying by default” that bothers me; being too paralyzed to make an actual choice and then seeing the decades slip away. I would think that when one avoids making an intentional decision and stays by default then it it hard for him or her to avoid feeling like a victim if s/he ends up unhappy. I’m all about the intentional decision; there will be consequences either way (and also benefits either way) but making the choice puts you in the drivers seat and that is empowering. Can’t say I’ve ever quoted Rush before but they make a good point: “If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.”
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Post by baza on Aug 10, 2018 18:59:45 GMT -5
What Sister choosinghappy calls "staying by default" and catsloveme calls "inert" and what I call "fencesitters" are far and away the majority of the members. And being in such a position is just about the most unenviable place imaginable. It is a "hiatus" position. But, it is - by default - a position, it is in fact a choice. That choice being -"Staying and being inert". And nothing.....nothing....happens until the fencesitter takes ownership of that choice. The success stories here all have one common element. That being that the member took ownership of - and responsibility for - their choice (initially to "stay by default") They then put their situation under the microscope and took a fearless inventory of the facts ("staying whilst I review the situation") Then they had an objective look at the alternatives to staying ("staying while I do my research") Then, in light of all the information they could get, they made a fully informed choice about their way forward. What that choice was (staying or leaving) is not particularly relevant (they are both perfectly legitimate choices) but the key point is that they took ownership of their choice, and then started making their next choices to drive their life in the direction they wanted. Me ? I started off as "staying and burying my head in the sand" initially, then started to question that position. That process ended up with me divorcing after a whole lot of self examination and hard painful work. But please note that is NOT an endorsement of leaving being "right". It is just how my unique set of sums added up. The underlying message here is that you have to choose. There is no way around that, or under it or over it. You choose, or the default choice kicks in and the choice is made for you, and you will wear the consequences either way. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 20:52:40 GMT -5
I am a chooser but am not taking the bait of this thread.
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Post by choosinghappy on Aug 11, 2018 6:06:31 GMT -5
I am a chooser but am not taking the bait of this thread. Which is what exactly? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 8:04:25 GMT -5
I chose to stay once. I chose to leave twice. I chose to return twice. Things were garbage within 6 months of marriage (no physical intimacy and lots of verbal crap). I threatened to walk, and she wanted to work it out. I chose to stay. Things decayed terribly over the next 5 or so years. Sex was zero, and verbal barrages were unrelenting (I went totally mute for a time, simply to avoid triggering an otherwise inevitable episode). We both chose to leave. But, after about three months, she pressured me for reconciliation and assured me of a changed sexual attitude. I caved in (i.e., I chose to return). Some horrible shit went on during the reconciliation (details not important at this moment), but sex returned with a frequency of about once per week. If I had been asked at that point whether there had been a turn-around, I would have had to answer "yes." But, such may be the nature of many turn-arounds (i.e., the turn-around was about to turn around). Intimate relations eroded again (over about 2 years), with my last intimate physical contact occurring in isolation in about 2003. By then, I had learned the rules. As long as I didn't attempt any physical contact, life was generally free of the verbal attacks. In about 2013, I forgot the rules and accidentally initiated a hug-like maneuver. Like lightening, I basically got slugged. Conveniently, I was scheduled to be away for many months, so the subsequent transition out was almost natural. Unfortunately, I seemed to be as poorly received in the dating world as I had been in the married world. I lacked important information concerning the basis for my bad reception (but didn't know it), and I chose to return (and have since avoided the slugs). There are risks to whatever option one exercises. One can only make choices based on some combination of rationally processed information and blind hope. So, it's important to recognize that we can't always judge the quality of a choice by the outcome. Even the most rational of choices can produce poor outcomes, because of either bad luck or insufficient information. Does this reflect the way many of us entered SMs in the first place? |
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catsloveme
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Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Choosing.
Aug 11, 2018 9:31:04 GMT -5
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Post by catsloveme on Aug 11, 2018 9:31:04 GMT -5
There are risks to whatever option one exercises. One can only make choices based on some combination of rationally processed information and blind hope. So, it's important to recognize that we can't always judge the quality of a choice by the outcome. Even the most rational of choices can produce poor outcomes, because of either bad luck or insufficient information. Does this reflect the way many of us entered SMs in the first place? What you say here is very true. We try to make the best choices we can given all the information available to us, but sometimes the result is not what we anticipated or desired. And, yes, often there is information that comes to light after the fact... or information that cannot be fully assimilated at the time the choice is made. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 13:09:07 GMT -5
What you say here is very true. We try to make the best choices we can given all the information available to us, but sometimes the result is not what we anticipated or desired. And, yes, often there is information that comes to light after the fact... or information that cannot be fully assimilated at the time the choice is made. Correct. We are very good at both ignoring the obvious (because we're not ready for it) and making a big deal out of nothing (because it may be a bit beyond our experience).
It's sometimes surprising that we manage at all.
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Post by baza on Aug 11, 2018 20:00:51 GMT -5
There was a member of the old EP group - "Vegas" - who would often say - "You want a guarantee ? Then buy a toaster". The point you raise Brother @islandtime & Sister catsloveme, is perfectly true. There is not, and cannot be, a guarantee of outcome. All there is, is choice. "This" choice might move you a little toward what you ultimately want. "That" choice probably won't. Your next choice of "This" might move you further toward what you ultimately want. Your next choice of "that" probably won't. It is rarely linear, and progress is only made by a series of choices (not some single big grand choice that fixes everything in one go) And there is no known way that you are going to make the right choice(s) all the time. You will completely fuck up at times. |
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Post by richfairy72 on Aug 15, 2018 13:23:46 GMT -5
Personally I feel that choosing to stay is valid for so many reasons. I chose to stay and try to make it work for a long time, but the sad reality is that is takes two WILLING partners to make it work. I made the mistake of assuming he was trying as hard as I was - at the expense of my health and well-being.
Choosing to stay and accept things without any of your needs being met is not the same as two people who basically love each other mutually agreeing to willingly try and make it a workable relationship.
If choosing to stay is best for you, please make sure you work on yourself to make sure the situation is not damaging you. Of course, if your partner turns out to be mentally or physically abusive, like mine turned out to be, then please seek help and leave as safely as you can....
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