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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 30, 2018 16:28:38 GMT -5
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Post by baza on Apr 30, 2018 20:30:29 GMT -5
Interesting read Brother greatcoastal . Unfortunately, there ain't a real lot any of us can do about how our parents influenced us. We are what we are and all we can do is our level best to sort out our own shit (and some of that shit we inherited) By exposing our kids to our own versions of family life we most likely pass on to them some unhelpful shit as well, and that will be on them to sort out. I figure that no parent (unless they are a total fucking psychopath) would deliberately inflict harm on their kid. By the same token, I think just about every parent does do this to some degree or other by the example they set. See, if each generation parented in a better manner than the generation before, we would by now - after the odd millennia or two, be producing wonderful, well adjusted, honest, empathetic, and altogether amazing people. And, clearly, that has NOT happened. There are as many dickheads in the world as there ever was, and they all had parents and grandparents, and they in turn become parents and grandparents. Without being too gloomy and negative all each generation can do is sort their own shit out. A kid brought up by a narcissist parent is highly likely to be affected by that. It's just about guaranteed. And it's not fair. But it's a fact. And the kid is going to have to sort that shit out. The narcissist parent can't figure out the kids shit for them (and probably wouldn't even if they could). Jeez. Just proof read this. How depressing. Not having much of a day here. Sorry.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 30, 2018 20:46:52 GMT -5
That's okay baza ! You're a light in a dark place! I'm infatuated with the hope that due to the divorce I can turn some things around. How successful I will be remains to be seen. My goal will be to offer an alternative perspective with much less narcissistic influence in my teens remaining formidable years. And the decades that will follow as I get to be Grandpa someday. I want to model empathy for my kids in larger and larger quantities. I'm better equipped to have it rejected, ( and accepted) knowing I am free from my ex. Part of that is me swallowing my pride and being more of a receiver This will be very different from the cold manipulative control influence they where raised under. instead of a giver. Letting them know that I need their empathy. Just think if my own parents had this kind of information at their fingertips like I do? Things actually could have been different. Some of my teens where very open and aware of DARVO and their mothers Narcissistic problem. They seemed thankful and more ready to move forward once they could relate and discover that much of this is not their fault, and not something to model their future after. This also helps me see what problems my next mate and/or friends will encounter with their own kids. I hope I can share my experiences and knowledge to improve things. Like you say "people sorting their own shit out" I want to be an example of someone who learned from my mistakes.
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Post by baza on Apr 30, 2018 21:12:18 GMT -5
I think you are well on the right track Brother greatcoastal . You are sorting your own shit out, thus providing a great example to those around you - and that ain't just your kids. Your example may well inspire at least some of your kids that sorting out ones' own shit is a good thing to do. That is a fantastic legacy to give them. Voluntarily taking on the difficult and challenging task of sorting out your own shit is a whole heap more preferable than having life force it on you. Addendum. About 6 months ago I had a choice to make over a particular matter. Choice #1 provided a pretty easy option and as such was a good short term benefit with a "maybe" long term down side. Choice #2 had no immediate pay off and only might be beneficial in the long term. And, as you know, I bang on here about "short term gain for long term pain" or "short term pain for long term gain" and urge people to take a view of what is in their long term best interests. Well, in that scenario above, what did I do ?? Took the easy option, and now, it has come home to roost on me, and I am going to pay the price come tax time !! That's why my demeanor is rather pissy today. Thanks for trying to cheer me up tho !
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Post by GeekGoddess on May 1, 2018 10:58:58 GMT -5
The recovery program Adult Children of Alcoholics is a source for information on reparenting ourselves. Although the group did begin as one centered around alcoholics' families, they learned more and broadened the invitation to include children who grew up in a household with any form of dysfunction (gambling, philandering, plain old "dysfunctional"). I once commented to my mother about our dysfunctional family and in a classically codependent defensive response, she told me "ALL families are dysfunctional!" To her surprise, I agreed and told her we aren't anybody special. BUT - that in my understanding of dysfunction, there are greater and lesser degrees. I told her of one of my professors, who despite being an engineer and a professor who lost his father at age 17 or so, he was very well-adjusted and simply able to be himself and allow others to be who they would - - and in conversations he had explained so much to me about how his mom raised and taught him - - and I just have to assume that they were on the "low" end of dysfunctional traits in order for him to be such a good human being. She got over thinking I was trying to offend her and we did have a reasonably mature talk about how me needing to "sort my own shit" is NOT necessarily because she was good or bad at being a mom - I've had a lot of life experience not directly related to HER, and humans just tend to build up a lot of shit that needs sorting. Anyway - ACA may have literature that you would be interested in, greatcoastal. It has done a lot for me, and it could maybe tell you things that will help your kids.
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Post by nyartgal on May 4, 2018 18:40:13 GMT -5
greatcoastal my Mom is NPD/BPD (undiagnosed) and I think she also has GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) which has gotten severe in her old age. I can tell you that the best thing my father did for me and my brother (besides get divorced) was to be consistent. One of the hardest things about having a Cluster B parent is that they are so volatile and unpredictable. I don't have to tell you that their moods are crazy making and their anger is volcanic, and often arbitrary. So a parent who is extremely stable mood-wise, behavior wise, and consistent in expressing unconditional love is an absolute necessity. Another thing NPD's do is pick a good kid and a bad kid, or in some way favor some over others. Treat your kids equally no matter what! One thing that is extremely confusing about NPD/BPD parents is that they are incredibly manipulative, and besides gaslighting, a big tactic is projection. Whatever they accuse people of is usually an incredible diagnosis of their own shit. This is very useful to know. They can't stand any kind of self-reflection on their egos so they have to attach those feelings to someone else to get rid of them. So teach that to your kids so they don't take any accusations or condemnations to heart. Whatever your kids do, good bad or otherwise, she will make it about her. NPD's constantly create drama so they can take center stage. My ex's mother was an extreme toxic NPD and she was the master of a last minute migraine, a tantrum, or any kind of drama to get attention and sympathy. So create as little drama as possible and try to never be defensive. Don't take things personally if you can. NPD's almost always have an enabling spouse so be prepared for her to find a new partner quickly. This person will help to gaslight your kids by always making excuses for her behavior. So in sum: be calm, consistent, undramatic, patient, empathetic, and clear. Be all the things she is not. Model healthy relationships and behavior. Don't enable her. There are some very good communities like this for people with NPDs and BPD's in their lives. I really recommend you join one. Also there are some books you can easily find at Barnes and Noble or Amazon. They really helped me a lot, as did therapy. I hope this helps!
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Post by greatcoastal on May 4, 2018 21:29:35 GMT -5
1)Another thing NPD's do is pick a good kid and a bad kid, or in some way favor some over others. Treat your kids equally no matter what! 1) This is already happening. We have a very diverse family. Half my children where adopted from China and came to America with a spirit of independence.(they lived on the streets and in orphanages) They don't fall for her crap. My other's who are our biological children and raised by her, are fearful and manipulated. 2)One thing that is extremely confusing about NPD/BPD parents is that they are incredibly manipulative, and besides gaslighting, a big tactic is projection. Whatever they accuse people of is usually an incredible diagnosis of their own shit. This is very useful to know. They can't stand any kind of self-reflection on their egos so they have to attach those feelings to someone else to get rid of them. So teach that to your kids so they don't take any accusations or condemnations to heart. 2) That is very interesting! It's amazing how many times my ex should be called out for her double standards. How guilty she is about doing the same things she blames others for. (Do as I say, not as I do) 3) Whatever your kids do, good bad or otherwise, she will make it about her. NPD's constantly create drama so they can take center stage. My ex's mother was an extreme toxic NPD and she was the master of a last minute migraine, a tantrum, or any kind of drama to get attention and sympathy. So create as little drama as possible and try to never be defensive. Don't take things personally if you can. 3) My ex is guilty of this in some ways, yet is manipulative and cleaver enough to avoid much of the difficult, parts about disciplining children. My attempts where constantly berated and shot down as wrong and " that won't work, they are going to do it anyways".( Never mind that she would turn around and 'handle' the situation ,pretty much 98% the way I had been doing it) Then, later, would come the accusations of " not disciplining the children and her having to do it all". Such a mind f*ck! 4) NPD's almost always have an enabling spouse so be prepared for her to find a new partner quickly. This person will help to gaslight your kids by always making excuses for her behavior. 4) This happened long before the divorce. My ex had her daddy move in with us. Forming the "triangulation" the two against one. He knows who butters his bread, and who to side with. How immature for a woman in her 50's to still need and cling to her daddy? Yet she tries to portray herself as this corporate manager, boss lady. it's really a sad example for our family. Another reason why I hope to be offering a healthier alternative in these last few formidable years. 5) So in sum: be calm, consistent, undramatic, patient, empathetic, and clear. Be all the things she is not. Model healthy relationships and behavior. Don't enable her. 5)Ironically my ex comes across as all of these "fine qualities", she is like a hidden closet narcissist( a highly skilled manipulative controller). She will come across as very calm with her immediate ,"no". She will sound patient, undramatic, and clear as she avoids the entire issue and she reverses the whole conversation with her "not my problem ,whatever" ,words and attitudes. Leaving everyone to feel like they offended her somehow and she is the helpless victim. It took years to understand her DARVO tactics and call them out, mostly by avoiding her as much as possible. It's going to be "parallel parenting" as much as possible. The only communication needs to be the 3 B's. Blood, broken bones, and brain damage. That and it will be the 3 D's : Detach, Disengage, Defend. 6) There are some very good communities like this for people with NPDs and BPD's in their lives. I really recommend you join one. Also there are some books you can easily find at Barnes and Noble or Amazon. They really helped me a lot, as did therapy. 6) Don't know of any communities. One book I have read 5 times (and highlighted half of it) Is "Say Goodbye to Crazy" by Dr. Tara Palmatier and Paul Elam. This upcoming week is my first day of the new journey of two seperate households. I'm reading up and getting prepared. I hope this helps! ---- Thanks it does!!
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Post by baza on May 5, 2018 2:24:59 GMT -5
There's one thing - as a parent - you can take to the bank.
You are the primary models for your kids to observe whilst they are in their formative years trying to figure stuff out.
And, believe me, they will be taking on board what they observe. As joint parents, and as individuals.
Hopefully, the example you both set is consistent and positive. However, as you see in story after story here, that ain't always or even often, the case within this group.
But you can't do much about how your spouse parents. You can only do something about the way YOU parent, hopefully modelling consistency and positivity, and sometimes by letting go and allowing them to learn stuff by themselves.
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Post by nyartgal on May 5, 2018 6:00:35 GMT -5
greatcoastal, this is CLASSIC: 5)Ironically my ex comes across as all of these "fine qualities", she is like a hidden closet narcissist( a highly skilled manipulative controller). She will come across as very calm with her immediate ,"no". She will sound patient, undramatic, and clear as she avoids the entire issue and she reverses the whole conversation with her "not my problem ,whatever" ,words and attitudes. Leaving everyone to feel like they offended her somehow and she is the helpless victim. It took years to understand her DARVO tactics and call them out, mostly by avoiding her as much as possible. They are incredible at finding a way to control everyone, whether it's through guilt, intimidation, passive aggression, threats, avoidance, etc. Really doesn't matter, it's all the same. They see themselves as victims because otherwise they would have to take responsibility for their part in any situation. THEREFORE, it's very important that you not be controlling. Give your kids freedom to make mistakes, to be themselves, to figure things out on their own even if you disagree. I'm not saying they shouldn't have guidelines, just that they don't need both parents creating such pressure on their behavior that they go crazy. One thing my Dad did that was incredible---I hope to repeat this as a parent---is that he never offered opinion or commentary on my life choices unless I asked. And then when he did, he would say whatever it was once, and that was that. I never heard it again, even if he was right and I was wrong. He said his peace and then let me do what I wanted with that info. It was never critical of me as a person, ever. My Mom is the extreme opposite so I'm deeply grateful for the other model of behavior. If I'd had a father who constantly lectured me, or nit picked or analyzed or gave me a ton of rules etc I prob would have been an alcoholic or developed a personality disorder myself! And I've asked 3 shrinks point blank if I have one because that's my worst fear, hahahha. I don't. The community I joined is called BPD family, I'm sure there is one for NPD too. This looks similar: www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/You are doing great! It's terrific that you are thinking about these things in terms of parenting. My brother and I were just discussing last week that if we hadn't had our Dad we would be totally fucking nuts.
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Post by nyartgal on May 5, 2018 6:07:59 GMT -5
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Post by greatcoastal on May 5, 2018 7:52:44 GMT -5
I just ordered it! I look forward to reading it and vigorously applying it in the months ahead. I also ordered another copy of "Boundaries in Marriage" I must have highlighted 90% of it. (I loaned it to someone else, and need another copy) My teens seem excited to the new change. However that's not the entire family. My oldest moved out the day after the divorce. He's 21 yrs old. It's been a complete alienation. I'm chalking that up to his age and independence. I hope to have get together s with him more in the future. Especially now that I will be independent of my ex. We can do things on a whole new level. My second oldest (age 19 1/2) Well..... our child psychologist said," he will most likely remain living with his mom until he's 30, their really isn't much you can do about him". I've come to accept that more and more. Also I have to treat him like I would having an adult roommate to live with. I would not choose him. Due to his sloppy, lazical living habits and his frivolous spending and lack of ever cleaning up after himself or pulling his weight. He's like my "prodigal son" My middle child (son 18) is a momma's boy and has grown to abide by her ways only. He has bought in "hook line and sinker" that dad is evil and wrong. Sadly his self esteem has always been low. Fortunately he wan't to go off to college on a scholarship. "mom gets full control over that, she dictates him relentlessly with it". My prayers are come this summer he is out of their and will be more independent and will see the truth of how things where at our household. I will be keeping an open door policy of forgiveness for him. My last three will be living with me and their mom 50/50. They will have freedom to stay one place more than the other. I already have heard many things about how much better it's going to be. I hope my kids can say the same about their dad as you did. It reminded of the old days when I was the kind of parent who wouldn't have to tell my kids ,"I'm going to count to 3". All I had to do was count to "1".
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littlelamb
Junior Member
I don't know.
Posts: 56
Age Range: 26-30
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Post by littlelamb on May 7, 2018 22:53:18 GMT -5
my H is diagnosed NPD/clusterB persona... I'm the type to...take it with some doubt..but... I like to think that if we are able to work things out...and stay together... ...that since he is aware of it, we'd be able to prevent the harm and control it.
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Post by northstarmom on May 8, 2018 6:58:39 GMT -5
Little lamb, narcissists think they are fine: the rest of the world is the problem. By staying with your h you are setting up your child to endure some terrible parenting and also you will be setting her up to expect the same type of emotional abuse from her future husband that yours gives you (and probably will also do to her).
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Post by elkclan2 on May 10, 2018 10:08:44 GMT -5
littlelamb my mom is almost certainly NPD. She is pretty high functioning in many ways and certainly doesn't have the legal problems your h does. It fucked me up. You know what else fucked me up - the other parent not being there for me - not protecting me. In some ways, I get it because my mom is the charming kind of NPD and she can fuck your head like nobody's business - and, of course, my dad had his own issues - that is being an alcoholic. What I learned from that experience is that my needs just don't matter at all to anyone and shouldn't matter to me. I don't want to pile in on you - but you are the person on this forum that I am the most concerned about. I don't think you want your child to be in the situation of feeling like their needs don't matter. But by staying in an emotionally abusive relationship -this is what you will be teaching them. I'm trying not to blame you, because it isn't your fault, but at the same time you are the only person who can take actions to fix this. No NPD/BPD person has the capacity to do the inward reflection required to improve their behaviour. It's just not in them. They can learn that there are consequences, but they cannot self-drive change out of care for other people.
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