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Post by rejected101 on Jan 4, 2018 17:51:06 GMT -5
Or are we teaching our children to become ‘the refused’
As a youngster at school I had the compulsory sex education lessons. One of the big themes of this lesson which was probably mentioned in every single lesson was that “you do not have sex unless it’s what you want to. It should always be your choice to do it”. This advice was reinforced on tv shows, parents magazines and so on.
Now let be totally clear, I agree with this message in principle. I agree that we deliver this message to our kids and I would never accept the idea of any daughter of mine being pressured in to having sex.
However, does this message continue to be ingrained in us into adulthood whereupon we encounter a scenario that even though a person could quite happily have enjoyable, meaningful and consensual sex, they don’t. Why, because they are happy not to bother that night, or the next night, or the next for that matter. Over time, the habit of sex becomes lost. It’s not that they couldn’t have participated, it’s not that they would have enjoyed it, it’s that they couldn’t be bothered because something was on TV or they were a little tired or they wanted to do something else and so on.
But as a youngster we were all taught that “you do not have sex unless YOU want to. It should always be your choice to do it”.
So when the excuses are made and the little white lies about having a headache, being too tired, or not feeling clean are told, the refuser feels 100% comfortable with their decision because ‘I didn’t want to tonight and no one should ever expect me to when I don’t want to’.
The refused have been taught not to pressure for anything more than what they are offered and sometimes we are offered the scraps off the table. The refuser and the refused are born??
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Post by h on Jan 4, 2018 18:30:33 GMT -5
I think I agree with you partially. I think that the concept of sex being optional is ingrained in us but I don't think it is intended to carry over into marriage. I think that the conversation just stops once people grow up and the assumption is that everything will work itself out. The truth is that in all my life, I have never heard a positive message about sex regardless of whether it was referring to outside of marriage or in.
I wholeheartedly believe that religious organizations (some, not all) unintentionally contribute to this problem. There's a constant message of DON'T DO IT until people get married and then nothing after. The negative messages end but positive messages never start. That's my experience anyway.
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Post by rejected101 on Jan 4, 2018 18:35:36 GMT -5
I think I agree with you partially. I think that the concept of sex being optional is ingrained in us but I don't think it is intended to carry over into marriage. I think that the conversation just stops once people grow up and the assumption is that everything will work itself out. The truth is that in all my life, I have never heard a positive message about sex regardless of whether it was referring to outside of marriage or in. I wholeheartedly believe that religious organizations (some, not all) unintentionally contribute to this problem. There's a constant message of DON'T DO IT until people get married and then nothing after. The negative messages end but positive messages never start. That's my experience anyway. That’s exactly my point. There is a lot of don’t do it, do it only when you want to and so on and never a ‘remember that if it is important to him/her, it should be important to you too’.
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Post by baza on Jan 4, 2018 18:49:13 GMT -5
Are we teaching our children to become refusers ? or Are we teaching our children to become the refused ? or (additionally) Are we teaching our children to have a healthy balanced view of marital intimacy ? There is one thing that you can take to the bank. That is that you ARE teaching your children, and that you are doing so by your example. So the fact is that you ARE teaching your children. The question is - *what* - are you teaching your children. Perhaps you are modeling how to be a doormat in a relationship and setting an example that you keep the peace in your marriage by a policy of appeasement. Perhaps you model that things have to go "your way or the highway" and set an example of selfishness for them to observe. Perhaps you model a "shut up and endure" example of how relationships work. Perhaps you are modeling a healthy and balanced view of an adult relationship for your kids (but the chances are that you are not in this group if that's the case) Whatever you are modeling and setting as an example, you can take to the bank that the little sponges are soaking it all up, and learning what you are teaching them. Then, at the extreme other end, you find people like Sister eternaloptimism Brother shamwow and numerous others who model and set as examples, how to respectfully and decently bring a dysfunctional relationship to an orderly finale. And, there are a few (pitifully few) like Brother @time4living2 who have modeled a rebuild of their relationship. Whatever example you might be setting, your kids will be absorbing and learning. Bet on that.
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Post by rejected101 on Jan 4, 2018 19:11:55 GMT -5
Are we teaching our children to become refusers ? or Are we teaching our children to become the refused ? or (additionally) Are we teaching our children to have a healthy balanced view of marital intimacy ? There is one thing that you can take to the bank. That is that you ARE teaching your children, and that you are doing so by your example. So the fact is that you ARE teaching your children. The question is - *what* - are you teaching your children. Perhaps you are modeling how to be a doormat in a relationship and setting an example that you keep the peace in your marriage by a policy of appeasement. Perhaps you model that things have to go "your way or the highway" and set an example of selfishness for them to observe. Perhaps you model a "shut up and endure" example of how relationships work. Perhaps you are modeling a healthy and balanced view of an adult relationship for your kids (but the chances are that you are not in this group if that's the case) Whatever you are modeling and setting as an example, you can take to the bank that the little sponges are soaking it all up, and learning what you are teaching them. Then, at the extreme other end, you find people like Sister eternaloptimism Brother shamwow and numerous others who model and set as examples, how to respectfully and decently bring a dysfunctional relationship to an orderly finale. And, there are a few (pitifully few) like Brother @time4living2 who have modeled a rebuild of their relationship. Whatever example you might be setting, your kids will be absorbing and learning. Bet on that. Understood. In my own marriage what my kids see is an intimate relationship. They see the holding hands, the kisses goodbye, the hugs and touching on the sofa. The only intimacy that they don’t see is the sex in the bed because it rarely happens and on the occasions it does, I would not invite them to watch it anyway.
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Post by h on Jan 4, 2018 20:23:11 GMT -5
Are we teaching our children to become refusers ? or Are we teaching our children to become the refused ? or (additionally) Are we teaching our children to have a healthy balanced view of marital intimacy ? There is one thing that you can take to the bank. That is that you ARE teaching your children, and that you are doing so by your example. So the fact is that you ARE teaching your children. The question is - *what* - are you teaching your children. Perhaps you are modeling how to be a doormat in a relationship and setting an example that you keep the peace in your marriage by a policy of appeasement. Perhaps you model that things have to go "your way or the highway" and set an example of selfishness for them to observe. Perhaps you model a "shut up and endure" example of how relationships work. Perhaps you are modeling a healthy and balanced view of an adult relationship for your kids (but the chances are that you are not in this group if that's the case) Whatever you are modeling and setting as an example, you can take to the bank that the little sponges are soaking it all up, and learning what you are teaching them. Then, at the extreme other end, you find people like Sister eternaloptimism Brother shamwow and numerous others who model and set as examples, how to respectfully and decently bring a dysfunctional relationship to an orderly finale. And, there are a few (pitifully few) like Brother @time4living2 who have modeled a rebuild of their relationship. Whatever example you might be setting, your kids will be absorbing and learning. Bet on that. Understood. In my own marriage what my kids see is an intimate relationship. They see the holding hands, the kisses goodbye, the hugs and touching on the sofa. The only intimacy that they don’t see is the sex in the bed because it rarely happens and on the occasions it does, I would not invite them to watch it anyway. They don't have to see the lack of sex to know that it's not happening. They are more intuitive than most people think and can tell if something is "off" through nonverbal cues. It could be a tone of voice, an angry or disappointed look, or an off hand comment. No matter how good an actor you are, kids can spot a fake.
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Post by Dan on Jan 4, 2018 22:01:56 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly believe that religious organizations (some, not all) unintentionally contribute to this problem. There's a constant message of DON'T DO IT until people get married and then nothing after. The negative messages end but positive messages never start. That's my experience anyway. Math guy in me says: ^ 100 Religious guy in me says: AMEN BROTHER!
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Post by shamwow on Jan 5, 2018 0:03:55 GMT -5
Are we teaching our children to become refusers ? or Are we teaching our children to become the refused ? or (additionally) Are we teaching our children to have a healthy balanced view of marital intimacy ? There is one thing that you can take to the bank. That is that you ARE teaching your children, and that you are doing so by your example. So the fact is that you ARE teaching your children. The question is - *what* - are you teaching your children. Perhaps you are modeling how to be a doormat in a relationship and setting an example that you keep the peace in your marriage by a policy of appeasement. Perhaps you model that things have to go "your way or the highway" and set an example of selfishness for them to observe. Perhaps you model a "shut up and endure" example of how relationships work. Perhaps you are modeling a healthy and balanced view of an adult relationship for your kids (but the chances are that you are not in this group if that's the case) Whatever you are modeling and setting as an example, you can take to the bank that the little sponges are soaking it all up, and learning what you are teaching them. Then, at the extreme other end, you find people like Sister eternaloptimism Brother shamwow and numerous others who model and set as examples, how to respectfully and decently bring a dysfunctional relationship to an orderly finale. And, there are a few (pitifully few) like Brother @time4living2 who have modeled a rebuild of their relationship. Whatever example you might be setting, your kids will be absorbing and learning. Bet on that. Baza hits the nail on the head here. About 9 months ago, my now ex-wife and I announced to our kids that we would be getting a divorce. Soon after this, I was having a talk with my (then 16 year old) daughter and I asked her whether she knew there were problems between mom and I. Her reply was interesting: "Well, you and mom haven't kissed since we moved to this house". At the time, we had been in the house for 6 years. So from her experience, her parents had not kissed, hugged, or displayed any real public interest in each other since she was 10. I was amazed at how far back her awareness of our dysfunctional marriage went, even though both my ex and I probably thought we were doing an academy award winning job of hiding it. In reality, the dysfunction went back much further than 6 years, but that's not my point. My point is that during the years my ex and I thought we were hiding things, the kids saw completely through it. It saddens me to say that I see much of my ex-wife in my daughter as I watch her date (in how she treats her boyfriend). I fear she has seen how our former marriage was and considers that normal. Hopefully, my leaving mom will give her a passive lesson as to where that attitude gets you, but if that isn't enough, I do plan on having a more intentional conversation with her when she gets older and starts to seriously date (not the high school kind of thing). I will not disparage her mother, but I will explain how both of us made mistakes that hopefully she can avoid. My son? At the time of the divorce, he was 13. I actually think that he will have less long term impact from my failed marriage than his sister will. The younger ones bounce back better. It's funny, though, at the time, I thought the impact would be completely reversed. But I did want to share what it's like from the other side when you've actually asked the kids if they realized anything was wrong. If you think your kids don't see it, you're fooling yourself. They see and absorb it all.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 5, 2018 0:11:11 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly believe that religious organizations (some, not all) unintentionally contribute to this problem. There's a constant message of DON'T DO IT until people get married and then nothing after. The negative messages end but positive messages never start. That's my experience anyway. Math guy in me says: ^ 100 Religious guy in me says: AMEN BROTHER! Cynic in me says: Or have at least enough sex to fill the (fill in place of worship) with more (fill in religion) adherents.
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Post by h on Jan 5, 2018 5:52:29 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly believe that religious organizations (some, not all) unintentionally contribute to this problem. There's a constant message of DON'T DO IT until people get married and then nothing after. The negative messages end but positive messages never start. That's my experience anyway. Math guy in me says: ^ 100 Religious guy in me says: AMEN BROTHER! A fellow Math guy? Nice!😎
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 5, 2018 6:15:45 GMT -5
Those talks with the kids matter.
My eldest planned to marry young, and did. I had several conversations with her where I tried to be cryptic about my marriage, but told her about marital problems that might arise. She understood, but, eventually put the pieces together and asked me direct questions that I would not have been willing to answer when she was younger.
She gets it. Not only will her relationship be healthier, but she sides with me.
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Post by rejected101 on Jan 5, 2018 6:35:05 GMT -5
Those talks with the kids matter. My eldest planned to marry young, and did. I had several conversations with her where I tried to be cryptic about my marriage, but told her about marital problems that might arise. She understood, but, eventually put the pieces together and asked me direct questions that I would not have been willing to answer when she was younger. She gets it. Not only will her relationship be healthier, but she sides with me. I was hoping for this type of response. My talk about sex with a 15 or 16 year old daughter who is having her first or even just any relationship would be massively different to my talk about sex with a mature adult daughter who was about to get married. Essentially, when young I fully agree with the “you have sex when you want to, when you are ready. Don’t be influenced in to thinking you have to”. With the mature adult daughter it would be more like “don’t disregard the importance of remaining lovers. Agree on a love life you can both achieve and be happy with. If you are going to bloody minded and keep your love life at a level you are happy with and who cares if he is, don’t be surprised when his dick slips inside someone else”. Maybe I wouldn’t be quite so graphic but you get what I mean. Who has the balls to have these talks with their daughters? I would guess that there aren’t many. There’s certainly no lessons in school about it, no tv shows that cover this topic nor magazines etc. This is why I wrote the original post. We teach one thing only from an early age and apart from a few people who have the courage to say this type of thing to their kids, no one is taught anything else. I wish my dad, or my mum had told me not to settle for ‘only when she wants’. It would have given me the courage to walk before the knot was tied. I had the the whole, treat woman with respect and love and so on but never the don’t treat them with respect at the expense of your own happiness.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jan 5, 2018 6:46:54 GMT -5
This is a helpful thread, albeit a slightly painful one to read as I think about what my young son is learning about relationships when he almost never sees his parents kiss or hug or touch, or even really talk much with one another 😕
As for me, I do remember while growing up that all us kids knew that Saturday nights were strictly Mommy and Daddy time. I remember my mother getting a little dressed up, I remember perfume, I remember seeing the light on under their door when I got up late at night to use the bathroom and hearing the murmur of their voices or hushed laughter. As I came to understand what that truly meant I was grossed out as any kid would be, haha, but now as an adult in an intimacy-free marriage I find I am jealous of what they had. They DID model a healthy sexual relationship for me and the lesson carried over. Perhaps that’s why after only 5.5 years of this SM I am seriously contemplating an exit plan. I am thankful for the lesson they taught me. I don’t want to set my son up for failure in his future relationships because I am afraid.
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Post by h on Jan 5, 2018 6:47:02 GMT -5
Those talks with the kids matter. My eldest planned to marry young, and did. I had several conversations with her where I tried to be cryptic about my marriage, but told her about marital problems that might arise. She understood, but, eventually put the pieces together and asked me direct questions that I would not have been willing to answer when she was younger. She gets it. Not only will her relationship be healthier, but she sides with me. I was hoping for this type of response. My talk about sex with a 15 or 16 year old daughter who is having her first or even just any relationship would be massively different to my talk about sex with a mature adult daughter who was about to get married. Essentially, when young I fully agree with the “you have sex when you want to, when you are ready. Don’t be influenced in to thinking you have to”. With the mature adult daughter it would be more like “don’t disregard the importance of remaining lovers. Agree on a love life you can both achieve and be happy with. If you are going to bloody minded and keep your love life at a level you are happy with and who cares if he is, don’t be surprised when his dick slips inside someone else”. Maybe I wouldn’t be quite so graphic but you get what I mean. Who has the balls to have these talks with their daughters? I would guess that there aren’t many. There’s certainly no lessons in school about it, no tv shows that cover this topic nor magazines etc. This is why I wrote the original post. We teach one thing only from an early age and apart from a few people who have the courage to say this type of thing to their kids, no one is taught anything else. I wish my dad, or my mum had told me not to settle for ‘only when she wants’. It would have given me the courage to walk before the knot was tied. I had the the whole, treat woman with respect and love and so on but never the don’t treat them with respect at the expense of your own happiness. That last part sums up my experience also. I was always raised to put others needs ahead of my own. I was never told that I had a right to be happy myself. I was taught to accept others as they are but was never taught to look for someone who would accept me as I am. If every woman in the world was a selfless giver, I would have been fine but I wasn't prepared for the alternative.
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Post by rejected101 on Jan 5, 2018 6:49:35 GMT -5
Lonelywife - I wonder if your partner had this! I would say not! And therefore he reverts to the teachings in school, on tv and in the media. Fuck when you want to and offer nothing more!
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