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Post by bballgirl on Jan 23, 2018 8:49:50 GMT -5
What you have written above is a true fact, but if that's all you get, then I have failed to make the point. Once again, I'm not expressing this out of a point of moral outrage or social obligation. Guilt, moral obligation - let's put that aside - I'm not talking about that. I'm looking at it from a practical standpoint. I'm talking about people here in this group who are presently "trapped" in this situation because of their choice to present as married or to hope to be married when they are not living a married life and do not live a married relationship - irrespective of whether they are cheating. Nobody here stood on the altar in front of friends and family and put on a nun's habit or priest's collar and pledged to themselves and others a vow of celibacy. A cheating relationship is not a monogamous one and neither is a celibate one. They thing that keeps them pinned in place is this fantasy that they are married. A celibate marriage is just as much a lie - it just happens to be a lie both parties make a tacit agreement to choose together. The latent tension of an agreement based on a lie is like an economic bubble. There is always the knowledge that too much weight is pinned to a total figment, and that the bottom could drop out at any point. I'm not remotely suggesting that you confess to an affair. Authenticity and its benefits are not a single event. I'm asking you what the fantasy or veneer of a "marriage" brings to the table that an amicable separation doesn't? What is a marriage, as opposed to some other kind of intimate relationship? Do you have that? Married or not, you are going to have a kind of relationship with that woman, and she is going to be a part of your family. You don't have a romantic sexual relationship with that woman. You do likely run a household with her. You do likely share finances and family. In that sense, how is she different from an ex wife and co-parent who maybe you get along with? Do you get along? Yes sir, I understand what you are saying - in my situation, I just don't agree with it. I guess I have an easier time compartmentalizing my life and it's problems than some folks do. Love and sex are great together. They are also great separately. I don't need one without the other as long as I am getting both somewhere. My kids are grown and have families of their own. I still love my wife, maybe not in a romantic way anymore, but I would still take a bullet for her. We have gone on separate vacations most of our married lives - family and politics we have basic agreements on. So, the woman I love - I don't have sex with. The other woman is a friend who hates commitment, lives a pretty free lifestyle and just wants to have sex for sex sake. We are FWB not lovers. Marriage does not have a checklist of things that you must have in order to make it work. My definition of a marriage probably shadows baza's example of stages - only I have skipped the separation and co-parenting part. So far... I am doing what I have to do to stay in it for the long haul. I understand the risks that I take and I try not to get sloppy as time goes on. Maybe I am a bit shallower than some folks, but the risk/benefit ratio is better this way - at least for me. I feel exactly the same way. I'm very good at compartmentalizing too. I think everyone needs to do what makes their lives most happy and that's probably what is authentic to them and their personal situation.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 23, 2018 8:51:40 GMT -5
I have come to the viewpoint that a marriage can be solid without sex as long as BOTH are truly ok with that. If one or both are not, then I no longer feel it is immoral or wrong to outsource. I know many will disagree and say that there has to be explicit consent by each partner, etc., but I do believe that sometimes the partner that refuses sex wants the benefits of marriage without the obligations that are implicit. To say "I love my wife" but I want sex with someone else (only because she doesn't want sex with me) doesn't mean that I am a creep or immoral--I am human. We have built a pretty damn good life together (children, grand children), successful careers, and lots of other things in common, but she just doen't want or can't have sex. Should I chuck it all because of that? Should I become a monk? Or should I get it somewhere else once in a while and still continue to love and cherish what we have? Some people can live happily without sex. Some cannot. Who am I to judge? So, to be totally honest, after 40 years of marriage I recently did have sex with someone other than my wife. I had 5 minutes of guilt; then I just savored the beautiful time I had and remembered what it was like to feel a sexual connection. I feel alive and happy. Maybe it will all come crashing down sometime. But screw it. It's not completely my fault. I will accept part of the responsibility and blame but not 100%. Life does go on. Well said!!
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 23, 2018 10:19:43 GMT -5
Yes sir, I understand what you are saying - in my situation, I just don't agree with it. Whether you agree with what I'm saying, I'm not sure - because based on what you wrote, I'm not clear that you actually do understand what I'm saying. I've said a few things - and so I'm not sure what you understand or don't, what you agree with or don't, and maybe what you think I'm disputing but I'm not. I think parsing what we mean is of some benefit in thinking it through though (for others - I accept that things are satisfactory for you). Sure. I agree with that. Not in dispute. I'm single and dating occasionally. I've certainly enjoyed sex both within and outside of love. Me personally - I don't care for it much when I know don't like someone - enough to have avoided it. I'll even up the ante. I don't need either one at all, but I like them and I feel they present opportunities for fulfillment and I miss them when they aren't there. Not in dispute. Considering the example of the Titanic, many, if not most men would even sacrifice their lives for a woman who is a total stranger. I have many intimate relationships with people who I love. My parents, my children, my siblings, aunts and uncles, grandparents (when they were alive), perhaps some friends - maybe even one coworker I worked with for a decade, my cat. I'm not sure what my feeling is with my ex-wife, but I might put her in a special category with very few ex-girlfriends. But I'm not married to them Correction: I'm technically still married to my ex-wife/co-parent, though we live mostly apart. So, though I'm legally married to her and we share kids and ownership in the marital dwelling (as well as financial interest in her rental dwelling and shared household costs), and share time with kids sometimes, and holidays of significance TO the children and by most measures is still a member of my family - I don't consider myself married to her. I'm not a married man. I know she has at least one boyfriend and sometimes more. She knows I date others. She claims she still "loves" me in whatever way she always did. I have now, I think, matched her level of indifference or aversion (to her, her to me) to the point that it would be "weird" and awkward. So, despite most things shared, we both have given up the "pretense" of marriage, and instead our future is aimed toward separation and independent lives. I'm not clear on your meaning here. Are you saying that you have a working marriage? Your marriage is going well? Here may be the part where we are not aligned - I've agreed with most of what's written previously. I have an idea of what a marriage is and so does my ex-wife. When we got married, we both had an idea of what it is. Lots of different kinds of intimate, loving, and even sexual relations to have, but I think a marriage does indeed need to have some specific things in order to make it a marriage. Lacking those things, it may still be a "relationship", though less than a marriage, placing frustratingly unrealistic expectations on the relationship. Rather than succeeding at whatever it is, it is failing to be what it presents itself as. I think that's a kernel worth focusing on - the nature of a marriage. In your case, I question the fundamental "marriage" of two parties if one of those parties is unaware of information that fundamentally would change her perspective of the nature of their tacit agreement. If she knew, or if you knew about her affair, would it change things? How and why? You are doing what's necessary to retain the relationship in its present state (whether you choose to call that "marriage" or not). It took me quite a few sessions at family counselling to grasp that the good doctor was being carefully non-specific in referring to "the relationship" when I had been referring to "the marriage".
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 23, 2018 13:21:23 GMT -5
[....munching popcorn....]
Good job, all. Keep going. I'm not being sarcastic.
Due to the discussion here, I antagonized The Husband today with, "You don't get to comment on the fact I'm looking for a boyfriend since you're not a participant in my sex life." [He doesn't know it already happened and I got discarded.] But he is doing Reset Sex after 21 years of sex once every 6-8 weeks and my constant begging, so he got INSULTED.
Because he's showing up NOW. And he wants to know "why do you keep bringing up the past"? Because we've had Reset Sex every time I start crying and threatening divorce and throwing things and I've already seen this Dog and Pony Show 100 times, and I'm over it. [Hence, the divorce papers.] But no, this time it's different.
I almost hate myself for participating in Reset Sex. It's like I absolved him. I KNOW BETTER. That's why I'm mad. He now thinks he is a willing participant and there's nothing i can do to convince him otherwise. What a mind fuck.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 23, 2018 13:39:19 GMT -5
Well, he is doing what you asked and you are participating... if it’s too late, just tell him and end the charade.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 23, 2018 14:10:13 GMT -5
[....munching popcorn....] Good job, all. Keep going. I'm not being sarcastic. Due to the discussion here, I antagonized The Husband today with, "You don't get to comment on the fact I'm looking for a boyfriend since you're not a participant in my sex life." [He doesn't know it already happened and I got discarded.] But he is doing Reset Sex after 21 years of sex once every 6-8 weeks and my constant begging, so he got INSULTED. Because he's showing up NOW. And he wants to know "why do you keep bringing up the past"? Because we've had Reset Sex every time I start crying and threatening divorce and throwing things and I've already seen this Dog and Pony Show 100 times, and I'm over it. [Hence, the divorce papers.] But no, this time it's different. I almost hate myself for participating in Reset Sex. It's like I absolved him. I KNOW BETTER. That's why I'm mad. He now thinks he is a willing participant and there's nothing i can do to convince him otherwise. What a mind fuck. Trust me I get what you are saying and I've felt as you feel. I really think you need to figure out what you want for yourself and your future. Do you want sex with your husband? It's a simple Yes or No. If Yes then it will benefit you both to let go of the past and lay your cards on the table if he is capable of meeting your needs sexually in terms of frequency and enthusiasm. If No then figure out what will fulfill you emotionally and by that I mean What will make you feel loved? Can that be from one person or more than one? Only you know what will work for you, and honestly what works today may not be the answer next month or next year. I know there is no cookie cutter solution and we are all different human beings. Sometimes understanding ourselves is a tough task.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 23, 2018 14:32:03 GMT -5
[....munching popcorn....] Good job, all. Keep going. I'm not being sarcastic. Due to the discussion here, I antagonized The Husband today with, "You don't get to comment on the fact I'm looking for a boyfriend since you're not a participant in my sex life." [He doesn't know it already happened and I got discarded.] But he is doing Reset Sex after 21 years of sex once every 6-8 weeks and my constant begging, so he got INSULTED. Because he's showing up NOW. And he wants to know "why do you keep bringing up the past"? Because we've had Reset Sex every time I start crying and threatening divorce and throwing things and I've already seen this Dog and Pony Show 100 times, and I'm over it. [Hence, the divorce papers.] But no, this time it's different. I almost hate myself for participating in Reset Sex. It's like I absolved him. I KNOW BETTER. That's why I'm mad. He now thinks he is a willing participant and there's nothing i can do to convince him otherwise. What a mind fuck. Trust me I get what you are saying and I've felt as you feel. I really think you need to figure out what you want for yourself and your future. Do you want sex with your husband? It's a simple Yes or No. If Yes then it will benefit you both to let go of the past and lay your cards on the table if he is capable of meeting your needs sexually in terms of frequency and enthusiasm. If No then figure out what will fulfill you emotionally and by that I mean What will make you feel loved? Can that be from one person or more than one? Only you know what will work for you, and honestly what works today may not be the answer next month or next year. I know there is no cookie cutter solution and we are all different human beings. Sometimes understanding ourselves is a tough task. "Let go of the past and lay your cards on the table". I LOVE that advice! As great as it is, there are those spouses who have proven- from their past- that they play with a marked deck, they count cards, you can not trust their cards. That leaves YOU with laying YOUR cards on the table, telling them what their cards REALLY are (due to 21 yrs experience) and the tough, choices you are going to make and carry through with. Like all good things the best come with a price. YOU are worth it!
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 23, 2018 14:50:23 GMT -5
bballgirlI know what I want (I do not want sex with the Husband anymore -- I realized I was completely turned off two years ago, and all of this is just the dead chicken twitching), but as baza and others have pointed out, it's the price that keeps me stuck. That's on me to go over and chop off the head (of the chicken [i.e. marriage], not the husband). I just keep sharpening the blade and making excuses.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 23, 2018 14:53:57 GMT -5
Trust me I get what you are saying and I've felt as you feel. I really think you need to figure out what you want for yourself and your future. Do you want sex with your husband? It's a simple Yes or No. If Yes then it will benefit you both to let go of the past and lay your cards on the table if he is capable of meeting your needs sexually in terms of frequency and enthusiasm. If No then figure out what will fulfill you emotionally and by that I mean What will make you feel loved? Can that be from one person or more than one? Only you know what will work for you, and honestly what works today may not be the answer next month or next year. I know there is no cookie cutter solution and we are all different human beings. Sometimes understanding ourselves is a tough task. "Let go of the past and lay your cards on the table". I LOVE that advice! As great as it is, there are those spouses who have proven- from their past- that they play with a marked deck, they count cards, you can not trust their cards. That leaves YOU with laying YOUR cards on the table, telling them what their cards REALLY are (due to 21 yrs experience) and the tough, choices you are going to make and carry through with. Like all good things the best come with a price. YOU are worth it! Well of course, without trust and knowing that they have your back there is nothing- no relationship. And yes in life, everything comes at a price. The key is to focus on ourselves and be selfish for ourselves to figure out what works best for us. Something that a lot of us are not used to because we are very giving.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 23, 2018 14:59:13 GMT -5
bballgirlI know what I want (I do not want sex with the Husband anymore -- I realized I was completely turned off two years ago, and all of this is just the dead chicken twitching), but as baza and others have pointed out, it's the price that keeps me stuck. That's on me to go over and chop off the head (of the chicken [i.e. marriage], not the husband). I just keep sharpening the blade and making excuses. Do you want a divorce? I wanted it so bad I dreamt he handed me divorce papers. I realized he will never do that. The next month I saw an attorney and I was divorced in less than 6 months. It was an amicable divorce, he even helped me pack. He really did and does love me and I love him but we don't want sex together. But my point is figure out what you want and don't pressure yourself to figure it out, it takes time and one day you just know. But only you can give your life what it wants.
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Post by M2G on Jan 23, 2018 18:46:56 GMT -5
I’m kind of a Casteneda deciple, art of the Native American Sorcerer of the Mexican desert n all that...
So I say (in a totally Nagual way mixed with southern draw and northern drunken nonsense)
We all have explanations and inventories and endless indulgence in talk talk talking and minds spinning through the past finding ways to explain or fix or goback wish I knew then I could be better now and holy fuck I just need a REASON and a CURE!
There is no analysis that will help, indulging ourselves - covering pain with pain because the pain washes us clean of forward action.
I choose to use death as an advisor IE: Do I want to die in this horrible state of mind, or do I push it away with unbending intent and move in a better direction?
For me: My relationship with my Wife is only important because it was accomplished. In the hour of my death I will sing of that happiness we once shared. One good light among many more before, and many more to come, if I live like a warrior.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 23, 2018 21:31:27 GMT -5
Due to the discussion here, I antagonized The Husband today with, "You don't get to comment on the fact I'm looking for a boyfriend since you're not a participant in my sex life." [He doesn't know it already happened and I got discarded.] But he is doing Reset Sex after 21 years of sex once every 6-8 weeks and my constant begging, so he got INSULTED. "His level of rage typically corresponds to the accuracy of your observation." a quote from shrink4men. That's the case with my "manipulative controller". Only she does it in a very cunning, passive aggressive quite manner. Like moving more and more of OUR money to different accounts, making college plans with only one of our boys without my knowledge...etc.... All part of her level of rage as I call out her double standards, selfish behavior, lack of empathy, and lying, manipulative behaviors towards me and the rest of the family.
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Post by njsojourner on Jan 23, 2018 22:16:33 GMT -5
Having made the great leap and outsourced once, I now find myself wanting more. I feel alive again, wanted, sexy, and happy in a way I haven't felt in years. This is addictive. But my first encounter was a one off. Now I have to figure out where to find future playmates...but it is fun thinking about my next time. I have started to wonder if it is better to find a FWB and a regular or keep going with one night stands so as to reduce the risk of something getting too involved. Not sure where this will go but what the hell, I am haviog fun thinking about it and will have more fun doing it!!
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Post by baza on Jan 23, 2018 22:44:19 GMT -5
As the resident wet blanket Brother njsojourner , I figure that you want to keep your cheating under wraps. It would be wise not to present yourself as - "feeling alive again, wanted, sexy, and happy in a way I haven't felt in years" - to your missus. That's a dead give away that somethings up ! Also, the usual spiel - about legal advice, exit strategy, support network, managing the kids through a divorce - is appropriate to bring up again. So you know what stakes you are playing for, and so you can mitigate the fallout should all this result in your primary relationship going guts up. Generally though, your risk escalates commensurately with how often you cheat. And if this is with the same chick, the risk escalates even further. Good luck in your endevours, all I am suggesting is you play smart, and do your 'harm minimising planning' on the basis that you will get sprung at some point.
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Post by snowman12345 on Jan 24, 2018 5:38:17 GMT -5
As the resident wet blanket Brother njsojourner , I figure that you want to keep your cheating under wraps. It would be wise not to present yourself as - "feeling alive again, wanted, sexy, and happy in a way I haven't felt in years" - to your missus. That's a dead give away that somethings up ! Also, the usual spiel - about legal advice, exit strategy, support network, managing the kids through a divorce - is appropriate to bring up again. So you know what stakes you are playing for, and so you can mitigate the fallout should all this result in your primary relationship going guts up. Generally though, your risk escalates commensurately with how often you cheat. And if this is with the same chick, the risk escalates even further. Good luck in your endevours, all I am suggesting is you play smart, and do your 'harm minimising planning' on the basis that you will get sprung at some point. I would add use protection at each encounter - if she is fucking you, she is probably fucking other people too.
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