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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 0:00:59 GMT -5
H and I had a little fight tonight and it all stemmed out of something simple - a very casual interaction (over where the kids should eat their dinner) and he got PISSED. He said in front of the kids, all huffily "Nevermind! Your mother just contradicted me!" and then he stormed off. All I had said was "I think it's OK if they eat in here." Normal people have those discussions, don't they? And, FTR, it really was just a calm discussion and that was all I said, in a very casual tone.
What I need to know is whether it's OK for him to say such a thing in front of the kids. And whether there was really a reason for him to get so mad. I was surprised that he would say that to the kids. It felt like an attack, and I feel it shows a lack of respect for me in front of the kids. (He made them eat where he wanted them to eat anyway.)
Am I seeing this clearly? I know it's hard to evaluate without knowing the relationship, but please tell me if I'm missing something. If I am at fault, I will fix it.
I'm having so much trouble seeing my relationship clearly. I'm struggling over here. Please be honest with me. If a statement like this is OK to make in front of the kids, I'll let it go.
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 11, 2017 2:53:44 GMT -5
Control issues. Frustrated. Lashing out. My guess is this was not about the issue at hand, it was just the thing that popped his cork. What you describe is a minor difference of opinion.
And yeah, very not cool in front of the kids. United front, and all that. Need to argue? Do it away from the kids, and certainly don't pull them into it. You're not going to hide the fact that you're arguing, but they don't need to hear the details.
Now, if you want to dig, you could use it as a pry point to widen the conversation. That clearly his explosion wasn't about the issue at-hand, so something else must have been eating at him, and what is it?
He'll probably rant and blame for a bit, but if you can tolerate it he might give a glimpse as to the real issue. (More productive would be in a therapy session if you can get him there.) With any luck, he's feeling angst about the relationship and just doing a crap job of expressing it productively.
And... there is more than one battle here. I'd pick one, and that'd be the above. The other is venting in front of the kids - I wouldn't want to let that slide, but too much pummeling in one session will become counterproductive.
Good luck with this one, @elle
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Post by baza on Jul 11, 2017 3:29:00 GMT -5
Taken in the wider context of all your posts Sister @elle , where you say - "and I feel it shows a lack of respect for me in front of the kids" - is essentially an ongoing theme in your deal.
He disrespects you as a matter of course, consistently. Drunk or sober.
This "where the kids eat" scenario, is NOT a *new* instance of disrespect, rather, it is just the most recent episode of disrespect that has been going on for years.
In your deal, his disrespecting you has become *normal*.
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Post by seabr33z3 on Jul 11, 2017 5:24:16 GMT -5
It sounds to me like he is controlling or feels he is losing control. Years ago my daughter had a young friend. They were about 5 or 6 at the time. I always felt that the father( a genuinely lovely man) had a lot to put up with judging by my dealings with her. The child would sometimes say to my daughter " don't contradict me!". I often wondered...
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Post by Dan on Jul 11, 2017 6:36:56 GMT -5
Here's my perspective, coming from a father of four, married to a woman with whom I do share many parenting values (if not exact techniques):
First, yes, a united front is better, and arguing in front of the kids is bad, and tearing each other down in front of the kids is totally unacceptable. But having a discussion in front of the kids about parenting things (seconds on dessert? bedtime on this special occasion? etc) is OK, even when you disagree somewhat.
I think -- in a healthy parenting relationship -- kids will BENEFIT from realizing "my parents are two different individuals, with different views and strengths". Also that when parents don't meet eye to eye, one or both sides have to compromise. That is a GOOD lesson.
Raising our kids, my wife and I had a basic agreement that "you have to do the more restrictive of what each of your parents want". Bedtime? If my wife and I couldn't compromise, the EARLY value won. The kids had to follow BOTH parents. In this system "no" usually trumps "yes". Sounds harsh maybe, but it TOTALLY AVOIDS the shenanigans of "dad said no, but then I asked mom who said yes, so I did it."... which just breeds other problems.
This is -- actually -- a real life lesson: if the U.S. says marijuana is illegal, but your state says it isn't... then it is still illegal in your state. If you teacher says you can hand in school work after some deadline, but school policy says no... no wins.
Now, I disagree with his phrasing "your mother contradicted me". I guess mostly based on word choice. You disagreed with him on a matter of opinion, on a matter of "parental policy". I don't consider this a "contradiction", which I reserve for a self-inconsistency. And, as per the above, parental difference-of-view is just part of the deal with two parents.
Can I conclude he is a "controlling bastard" from your one story? No. He just might not want to deal with cleaning up the spilled soda or mustard stains from the couch in your mother's TV room... which he may have been predicting will happen. Their may have been some merit to his concerns.
This is one of those infinite little parenting decisions which don't have a clear "right answer". If they ate dinner "in there" or didn't, all will probably be OK at the end of the day. That's why some system of compromise is important. Maybe your vote trumps his (this time) because it is your mom's house. Maybe his vote carries the day this time, because you "won" the last disagreement. Maybe there is a middle path that they can eat their hot dog in there, but not dessert. Really, any are equally valid.
Now, it is tough to be married (and have to co-parent) with someone who regularly is more restrictive than you. But it is tough for that person, too. If this is an ongoing marital problem, marital therapy MIGHT be of some use here. Is there a commitment to at least "be the best parenting team" you can be? You might then need to have to discuss HOW you get to "united front". Always with the kids out of earshot? (Frankly, I don't think that is realistic: you are all in the car, and have to decide Burger King or Chipotle's or just go home and have leftovers. A private parental discussion is not possible in that circumstance!)
Your sensitivity toward his remarks has probably more to do with your emotional distance from him. I see that my wife and I are VERY quick to feel a slight (from each other) where none was intended. This is a sign of the LACK OF TRUST you feel towards him.
He felt dissed when you said "yes" after he said "no". You felt dissed with the petard of "she contradicted me". If you want to be better parents, just talk to him about this situation. "What should I have done -- after you said "no" but I disagreed? If you want us to agree on EVERY detail, and want us to caucus away from the kids... then please don't pronounce "no" before we've talked about it. And: if you feel I've wronged you in front of the kids, please trust that it was unintentional, and please pull me aside to talk about it. Please do NOT sideswipe me with a disparaging comment in front of them."
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Post by lwoetin on Jul 11, 2017 7:45:40 GMT -5
My wife contradicts me all the time. Sometimes she's right. It seems like your husband thinks he's always right. He needs to learn to control his anger, especially in front of the kids. Nice job keeping your cool, a good lesson for your kids in dealing with arguments.
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 11, 2017 9:05:44 GMT -5
I agree with everyone here so I don't have much to add.
I do think a lot of times our marriage arguments come out of frustration about other things. He probably feels like he's losing control and may sense a disturbance in the force so that triggers people to lash out and blow their top.
Is it disrespectful? yes, but not as much as not being a loving husband and being intimate with one's spouse - that's the biggest disrespect. It's taking someone for granted. So he has made his bed and now the chickens are coming home to roost in his bed.
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 11, 2017 9:09:37 GMT -5
Dan, extra points for use of the word "petard". ;-) I like your agreed approach of applying the more restrictive answer. It solves one of the bigger challenges in joint parenting. And I agree that there's nothing wrong with having a debate/negotiation on many topics in front of the kids (like a rational "is it OK if the kids eat in here", unless it's been previously established as a hard line). For one, it gives them a model for how to resolve differences of opinion. But if you're going to blow a gasket, that's a closed-door discussion. It does seem like there's more to this outburst than the issue at hand. I mean, yeah, superficially he sounds like a dick; unless he's always been like this, I'd say it's a symptom of broader frustration or loss of control. Heck, it could even be because his job has gone to shit, but since @elle is here I suspect it's relationship-related.
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Post by Dan on Jul 11, 2017 9:47:06 GMT -5
that's the So he has made his bed and now the chickens are coming home to roost in his bed. Chuckling at the mixed metaphor... but stuck trying to fix it. Maybe: "He had made his bed... And is getting his just desserts from not laying in it." Or. "His chicken has come home to roost... But is disgruntled for not been able to find the cock." |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 11, 2017 9:49:34 GMT -5
that's the So he has made his bed and now the chickens are coming home to roost in his bed. Chuckling at the mixed metaphor... but stuck trying to fix it. Maybe: "He had made his bed... And is getting his just desserts from not laying in it." Or. "His chicken has come home to roost... But is disgruntled for not been able to find the cock." I wrote that on purpose! I like the second one you wrote! It's all true though. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 11, 2017 12:41:58 GMT -5
I agree with Dan quite a bit.
Yet I am going to take a different approach to this. First of all there is three sides to every story. All of the beginning, and what boundaries have been set in the past, and by whom, has been left out.
Many a time my wife's "it's okay with me", "or I don't have a problem with it" or "I don't see the need for it", is like a rejection for sex and intimacy. Like we agreed to in marriage, not suddenly changing it whenever it suits her needs. Even though this has to do with eating in the kitchen. (so, so many of our issues revolve around the kitchen)
Back to what Dan said about a No over riding a yes. A manipulative controller uses their "yes" to over ride ,and say "NO" to your boundaries, and decisions. This is a slippery slope, ( so is allowing the NO to prevail every time and remaining silent) You (elle) said yes in front of the children. To him you said "NO" to his authority in front of the children.
Now I will speak for myself. When this happens at my house, I see it as disrespectful, over riding, Manipulative (especially in a calm voice like "of course I am right, there's nothing wrong with it!") controlling, passive aggressive, tactic.
My wife's "convenient memory" comes in to play. Things that where established between "us" are suddenly no longer valid, all with her feelings and opinion. No discussion. Especially when DARVO comes in to play. Then comes the hypocrisy. What's okay for one child is not okay for the other. What's okay for the older teen is not okay for the younger, what's okay for the children is not okay for the adult, what's okay yesterday is now not okay today? Simply with a "its okay if they do that". That's over riding the other person and taking control. When this happens at my house it's more like, "if you even try to disagree with me I will pull DARVO on you, and I did it in front of the children, and you can't win with a controller. If you do, it won't last long. The next sentence is a change in subject, leading to more control. No wonder I just say ( to myself) fine you deal with it. The downward spiral begins. Don't expect me to discipline kids, don't expect me to clean up their mess, don't expect me to enforce anything ,anymore, because discussing anything ends up with disrespect and goes very one sided.
This opens up quite a Pandora's box, doesn't it?
I remember once upon a time ,not to long ago, in a kitchen not to far away, a husband and wife with some of the teens in the kitchen. One of the teens opened up the fridge and the pantry and started snacking at 5:00 pm. The father said to the son, "what are you doing? it's 5:00pm I'm going to have dinner on the table in 45 minutes!
The mother said, "what are you so angry about? It's okay with me?"
The father then asked, "so he can eat whatever he wants, whenever he wants, as much as he wants, wherever he wants?
The wife said "yes, it's okay, he's a growing boy, I don't see the problem with it".
The father getting more angry, than said" Okay, so any child can do that, and the rules about no snacks after 4:00pm now mean nothing? The rules about the number of snacks now mean nothing, the rules about eating only in the kitchen now mean nothing? All these standards that the kids grew up with suddenly no longer apply? The fact that I buy all this food, open it, and prepare it, spend time and money on it, doesn't matter at all? Everyone can now do as they please? "
The wife responded with, "well how are you going to control it? what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do, sit and watch the pantry all day?
The husband responded, " well... yea, if I have to! And I'll put a lock on it, and I will buy less and less snacks, and start handing them out".The wife thought the husband was ridiculous!
Later that evening the husband overheard the wife confronting the teenager . The wife said to the teen" You should not be eating junk food like that, and not that close to dinner. Your father goes to all that trouble to fix you a full course dinner and you ruin it. That food ends up being thrown away, and this stuff is expensive. You've been told before about eating this late and eating in other parts of the house."
The teen says," but you just said I can eat whatever I want, when ever I want!"
The wife responds, "that doesn't matter don't do that anymore".
Did the mother tell the father that she had this talk with their son? NO, he was lucky he over heard it!
And who gets painted as the bad, angry person? Who walks away feeling guilty, for trying to set boundaries? A true story from our house.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 11, 2017 14:15:30 GMT -5
I don't know your husband, but if he is like my wife, he is never wrong. In 20 years of marriage, I cannot recall a single instance (on any matter of consequence) where she has been the first to say "I'm sorry" or "I was wrong". It just doesn't happen. Sometimes, if I state that I'm wrong first, she will admit some culpability in the matter, but never without me first saying I'm wrong and apologizing for my transgression. I've come to believe that over time, that conditioning leads to any questioning of their position as near "insubordination". Aside from the fact that you shouldn't have to be subordinate to your husband (or anyone else for that matter), this attitude is unacceptable. Perhaps this attitude is similar to your husband's.
However, I would guess that it is actually less "psychological" and more situational. You have already lit the "D" bomb, albeit with an unusually long fuse (another year to go). Lighting that fuse essentially strips the "marital protective coating" from the relationship. Every slight, real or imagined, will be magnified. This is to be expected when both parties believe that the relationship has no future. You and your husband are both in a pot simmering at a low boil. These types of incidents are a natural consequence. Keeping that in mind, even minor differences of opinion become almost Shakespearean acts of betrayal. Where the kids eat is a minor difference of opinion. Very minor. But it can still result in an explosion...especially if he is drinking.
So you ask if he is overreacting to a seemingly minor disagreement? Yes. Is it surprising given the marital situation (divorce intentions announced, but not happening for another year)? No. Is it a net positive for you (and for the kids) to stick out next year until your exit is fully ready (with new degree in hand)? That is something only you can decide.
In any case...chin up...you got this.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 11, 2017 14:23:40 GMT -5
I agree with everyone here so I don't have much to add. I do think a lot of times our marriage arguments come out of frustration about other things. He probably feels like he's losing control and may sense a disturbance in the force so that triggers people to lash out and blow their top. Is it disrespectful? yes, but not as much as not being a loving husband and being intimate with one's spouse - that's the biggest disrespect. It's taking someone for granted. So he has made his bed and now the chickens are coming home to roost in his bed. Are you suggesting @elle 's husband is a Sith lord? If so, she's got bigger problems than where the kids eat. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 11, 2017 14:29:07 GMT -5
I agree with everyone here so I don't have much to add. I do think a lot of times our marriage arguments come out of frustration about other things. He probably feels like he's losing control and may sense a disturbance in the force so that triggers people to lash out and blow their top. Is it disrespectful? yes, but not as much as not being a loving husband and being intimate with one's spouse - that's the biggest disrespect. It's taking someone for granted. So he has made his bed and now the chickens are coming home to roost in his bed. Are you suggesting @elle 's husband is a Sith lord? If so, she's got bigger problems than where the kids eat. Ha! Screaming laughing! You caught that! I like that! I used to say that about my Inlaws when they would drive from out of state to visit. I'd tell my friend - "They've crossed the state line I sense a disturbance in the force". Then when they left and crossed back to their state there was "balance in the force". I don't know if @elle 's husband is a Sith Lord but she's definitely a Jedi Master and a force to be reckoned with! |
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Post by shamwow on Jul 11, 2017 14:33:34 GMT -5
Are you suggesting @elle 's husband is a Sith lord? If so, she's got bigger problems than where the kids eat. Ha! Screaming laughing! You caught that! I like that! I used to say that about my Inlaws when they would drive from out of state to visit. I'd tell my friend - "They've crossed the state line I sense a disturbance in the force". Then when they left and crossed back to their state there was "balance in the force". I don't know if @elle 's husband is a Sith Lord but she's definitely a Jedi Master and a force to be reckoned with! Not sure about the Jedi master thing...pretty sure the Jedi are not heavy drinkers....that shit could get dangerous with light sabers and tossing shit around with the force. That seems to be definitely in Sith or Jose Cuervo territory. |
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