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Post by petrushka on Sept 17, 2016 4:17:50 GMT -5
"When is the last time you ...."
Blat blat {claxon, red lights flashing} blat blat
Famous last words. Famous last words you get to hear because that other person who just said that is about to eviscerate you. Metaphorically if not literally.
Not a person intent on dialogue, but on monologue and demolition.
Taking my cue from a person in another thread who was complaining about 'mansplaining': those are the words that indicate you're about to get things wo-man-splained to you.
.... like that was a gender specific behaviour ...
Ugh.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 16, 2016 21:20:05 GMT -5
As a veteran of unmoderated alt. flame wars, this is nothing. ROTFLMAO. Yes, there were some amazing flame wars in some of the comp.sys.ibm.pc.whatever groups as well. Bill Huffman vs. Derek Smart. Legendary. or Sokwoo Lee vs. all the gamers: "You all have big mouse" Classic. Hilarity ensued. Threats of murder and law suits .... No idea where I stashed my flame proof underwear - not that I ever needed it, but I laid a pair in, just in case. Anyway, these days asbestos is deemed to be detrimental to one's health. Probably has something to do with that PC crowd. n.b. also: there were some fantastic exchanges of views. :-P
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Post by petrushka on Sept 16, 2016 17:37:04 GMT -5
There's one thing [think] I can contribute here: If you take part in an exchange with view to learning something personal, with a view to personal growth, with the intent of seeing more clearly where you are at, where the other people in your life are at, where your relationships are at ---- you will need to be prepared to get challenged.
Getting challenged makes us feel uncomfortable. Coming to the point of maybe having to change our thinking, or our actions, will make us uncomfortable. Having people, however empathetic, point out the mote in our eye or our blind spots will make us uncomfortable.
I know this from experience. Every important interpersonal learning experience in my life was, initially, challenging and uncomfortable. Being in the hotseat can get very uncomfortable. And it's been like that for everybody else I've seen go through this.
A pity party is unlikely to become a learning experience. Even though we all may like to have one from time to time, when we're feeling like shit.
So if someone in charge here tells me "nobody is allowed to make another person feel uncomfortable" then I have more fruitful ways of spending my time, playing tetris maybe. I welcome being challenged. I don't get pleasure from challenging people who can't handle the heat ... and I simply put them in my 'ignore' list, I don't wind anyone up because it gives me gratification. But if the exchange here is to have any intrinsic value for me, then people challenging me, or even just giving feedback or reacting to my thoughts are what it takes.
If all I wanted was getting 'likes', I could go and open a facebook account, I guess. <snorts>
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Post by petrushka on Sept 16, 2016 17:21:16 GMT -5
sunniedays : "I've personally never felt any form of 'bonding' going on when my husband's penis was in my mouth. Nor did I experience intimacy when his tongue was between my legs." Never? Not one single time? Even when you were new to each other, just falling in love? That's so sad. To me, it would be like tasting nothing when you put chocolate in your mouth; or being completely colorblind and never seeing the full splendor of a rainbow. That's just it, isn't it? If giving pleasure to your 'loved one' doesn't do anything for you, doesn't turn you on, doesn't "rock your world" then yes, I guess it becomes a meaningless and possibly unpleasant messy activity. Not to mention the rush of having the power to blow your loved one's mind. What a rush, what a two way street of affection and intimacy. I guess if you don't feel it, you don't feel it. My wife doesn't feel it. She doesn't know. It's never occurred to her that giving pleasure in a way that actually gives pleasure to the other person is great ... she'll give me a pullover for X-mas because she likes knitting, it would never occur to her to give me a new video card for the computer or a new lens for my camera (or, for that matter, a BJ). I get huge pleasure when her face lights up [just] because I gave her some flowers. On the other hand, I've countless times complimented her and praised her and thanked her for "little acts of service", but she doesn't seem to derive any pleasure from that. Nor, for that matter, does that seem to register with her as affection or appreciation from my side. Some people, apparently, are just wired differently. Well that's one thing I've learned these last 18 years ........
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Post by petrushka on Sept 12, 2016 1:00:08 GMT -5
I require fair amount of attention. But I wonder if that need was met, would I get a little lazy? That's just it, isn't it? Getting lazy, taking the other person for granted, forgetting about greasing the axles of the relationship and doing some maintenance. Not clever. Of course, there's the other thing as well, and I don't think we can neglect that: I think most of us are still alive ... that is, we're looking around, we're still trying to grow and develop. And my conclusion is: yeah, when you stop growing (you start dying as the proverb will have it) you DO become boring. And even if you don't become boring, there's the chance that two people grow in different directions ... One might become more conservative, the other more outrageous, kind of thing.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 11, 2016 19:30:51 GMT -5
I've done the living apart in a steady relationship thing for a few years in my 20s. We probably ended up sleeping in each other's beds 3-5 days out in the week, even though it was across town and I'd spend 40 minutes on the first tube of the morning getting over to her house after shutting down the typewriter. (she had a car)
It was pretty wonderful. I could really go for that again.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 6, 2016 15:15:55 GMT -5
gaslighting....the refusers use of a psychological ploy to convince the refused that what had occurred, was said or took place really never happened. That is part of gaslighting, but only part of it. Gaslighting is the ploy to have the victim doubt their sanity and their perceptions by constantly undermining them, denying their perceptions, thoughts, memories are valid and genuine. It all goes back to some old film where a husband used to play with the gaslighting of the house, then tell his wife that she was imagining things when she remarked on different lighting in order to make her think she was going insane. My wife used to constantly accuse me of verbal abuse and of putting her down, and I was starting to doubt my sanity, when I started to consult with her and my friends how they observed communication between us (typically the reply was 'no, you were perfectly courteous and respectful - she's pretty touchy, isn't she?") ... in this case it was not an intentional act to make me feel like a crazy, it was an unconscious passive aggressive defense mechanism. A lot of passive aggressive people will gaslight, even if they do not do it intentionally. An interesting read: www.elephantjournal.com/2015/08/gaslighting-the-mind-game-everyone-should-know-about/There is also an article on wikipedia which I haven't looked at for a few years.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 6, 2016 5:01:11 GMT -5
Well heya Robert, sorry to see you here, but come on in ..... Many words of wisdom from GeekGoddess and DryCreek which leaves very little to add. Two things in your introduction stuck out: - the wife didn't want to go back to the therapist "because she took your side". This is very very bad news for you. It signifies that your wife went with an adversarial attitude rather than a constructive one; she didn't go to work on a solution, she wanted to be vindicated and told that she's right and you're wrong. When she heard the opposite, hell, it was not even openly critical of her, all the therapist asked is if she (wife) heard what you were saying, and the shutters came down. Robert, I don't fancy your chances at a positive outcome here. Seems to me she is where she wants to be, and she won't even let anyone question her about that, never mind change her mind (which only she can do, and only if she genuinely wants to). "I don't want to hear what my partner is saying and if anyone asks me if I heard I take that as a hostile act" is not a healthy attitude regarding a partnership. Au contraire, my dear Watson. - you feel that you're walking around with a big hole of pain in your chest, filled with a dull ache. Oh boy, that is familiar: I was like that towards the end of my first marriage. I got to the point where I could not even talk to her any more because I was afraid I'd bray like a donkey from pain. It is not good. This will make you sick if you don't take care of business. You may end up harming yourself to be rid of the pain, it's just no good. And business here, in my opinion, is to create a situation for yourself where you are not a passive subject to that pain any more. The quick fix is: change your expectations. Change the way you see this woman who pretends at being your wife. Wipe the muck out of your eyes and look clearly at the situation and realize that you will not get love from her, not get intimacy from her, not get touch or affection from her (never mind sex, that's an also-ran in this context, at least in my world). Don't expect the impossible and it won't hurt you so much day by day that you're not getting it. But that won't solve the long term prospects, because there will always be the pain of betrayal and lost hope. I guess you'll have to work out how you see the rest of your life shaping up: stuck in a painful, loveless situation, or ..... ? Incidentally: in this situation HOPE is your worst enemy. The best strategy is to look at what is actually happening in real life. Hoping that Father Christmas will make it all right is going to be a vain hope. Nothing will happen unless you make it happen - that is group knowledge crystallized out of years of Experience Project contributions. best, -P.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 6, 2016 3:23:07 GMT -5
Ok, I got insomnia problems, kind of, after my first marriage broke up and I found myself alone in a huge house.
Lying in bed, tossing, turning, sweating, tossing and turning some more. Existential angst set in: semi-awake nightmares of death and eternal darkness ... I got lucky because around that time our tv started to go 24hours and they broadcast a plethora of classic films - for a few years. Then the heavy advertising set in and I chucked the tv out of my bedroom. But for a while I was entertained until 2am-ish.
What now? Reading. Reading until I was so tired that I'd want to put the book aside and I was asleep by the time my head hit the pillow.
One thing I can only agree on with Bazz: don't fret. Not fretting about my sleepless nights made one hell of a difference.
Occasionally I still wake up in the wee hours - usually when I've gone to bed too early, i.e. between 10pm and midnight. So, what the hell, I get up, I fire up a slightly monotonous computer game and play for an hour or two until my head takes on the characteristics of a lead baloon, and back to bed I go.
I just do NOT let it bother me any more. It is what it is, and that's taken all the stress out of it. For me: just don't go to bed too early. I live on 5-6 hours a night, and if I need more, I have a 15 minute power nap in the afternoon. Works for me.
Gods, I will, I wish you all a happy ending to this sleep deprivation: it's really not conducive to a happy and relaxed life.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 5, 2016 5:24:16 GMT -5
So, how was Sydney?
We went to visit the out-laws in Auckland, spent a nice weekend, and knocked the tops off a few very nice bottles of Red :-P Oh, and: boardgames.
Back in the wee flat tonight ....
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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 8:13:46 GMT -5
Partially quoting you here Sister Helen - " a potentially constructive last question: fellow non-believers, where might I find a community similar to a church without having to pretend things I don't believe? " - - I'll put this out there for consideration. If you've got a personal belief system, a code of ethics, (call it what you will) - do you actually NEED a community, a group, (call it what you will) ?? A "reality check", if you want to call it that, is never wasted. And bouncing our ideas of other people who understand always helps to sharpen the mind and bring out the best ideas -- at least that's how it works for me.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 4:59:01 GMT -5
All this talk of slippery slopes makes me realize that I have not laid eyes on a toboggan in decades. Nor snow for that matter.
(sorry if my levity offends)
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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 4:54:35 GMT -5
Helen, you rock. Sign me up for the support group. Read the "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. The Bible is essentially how mankind perceived God. Spinoza (1632-1677) recognized: "god did not create man in his image, man created god in his image" hence began modernist theology. When I see what comes out of many evangelical mouths, I think the news has not yet spread to many places on the globe. In the theology that I was taught, That Book is a historical theological document that narrates and documents the evolution of the faith through the centuries; it is not the fount of all wisdom, nor is it the container of absolute truth. Reading up on Spinoza on Wikipedia and following all the links and cross-references is a fascinating journey if you're interested in the topic at all. My personal take is: you don't have to do that - if you simply are a non believer and content to be a non believer - why should you have to travel that way. For me , traveling that road was part of growing up (irrespective of the fact that I've considered myself an agnostic since I was 8 years old).
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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 4:40:29 GMT -5
I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I'm looking for my people. In real life I don't have a space to go to meet with like-minded people. In fact it doesn't feel safe to say I am a non believer to most people in my real life. I have close friends who are devout believers of various sects and faiths and I leave them with their beliefs and stay in the closet about my own because while their beliefs don't prevent me being their friend, expressing my beliefs would prevent them being mine. Our beliefs can coexist I believe, as long as you don't impose your values on me, I won't impose mine on you. After this thread I'll be back to my usual closet, no worries. I can empathize, Helen: it is good to have a space to go and meet with like minded people. It is not good that you don't feel safe to say that you are a non-believer, and that's one thing that I personally resent with most fervent believers in whatever faith, whatever religion: they want everybody to think like them. The do not tolerate other-ness. Fortunately they are not all like that, my personal history has a lot of people in it who were clerics who were entirely open minded, who were searchers for truth in their faith without resenting anyone for not sharing in that faith. Who would discuss their faith with me, and the basis of their morality. But these people, I am sorry to say, are rare. They are the highly educated elite, by and large (but not only). Those who use religion as their opium, to re-quote Bob and Marx, they do not like to have things questioned. It's threatening their world. (I on the other hand, have to question *everything*). In the end, I think you have to try and find your peers wherever they are. I had a group of peers when I was teaching at university. I had a group of peers when I was teaching language, and again I had a group of peers when I moved, years later, in to a valley full of hippies and alternative lifestylers. None of these communities persisted. That seems to be the way of life. My last haven started to dissolve 20 years ago - and I have attempted to find companionship in various online activities, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Now having moved to a new town not quite two weeks ago, the whole thing starts all over again, from nothing. So it goes. Like you, I thirst for the companionship of people with whom I can talk openly, and who are able and prepared to listen, or even just comfortable in silence. Who, at times, will ask the right questions. ;-)
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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 4:22:55 GMT -5
I remember being in an AA chat room many years ago on AOL. A guy was on who said he was drunk. Said he couldn't stop. When someone asked why he could stop, he said he was mad at God. About six people typed in the same line - "Get a new God!" To me, God is the elephant, and we are all blind men grabbing different parts. There is no way of knowing whether God is real or not. I'm beginning to agree with Marx, who said that religion is the opiate for the masses. It's a drug all right. Some people can take it in moderation, but there are too many who abuse it. As to finding a church, I have AA. I also have my family mental health support group, which has been great for me. There are lots of other groups, volunteer opportunities, and so forth. I would hope there is a Sunday morning greyhound owners' group! @helentishappy , I can understand wanting the church community. Growing up Catholic, I learned to separate my religion from my spirituality. But the Catholic Church and I got too far apart, and I decided not to go back. I needed to sleep in Sunday mornings anyway. Hope you find something. Often mis-quoted. Marx said "religion is the opium OF the masses"
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