|
Post by Apocrypha on Feb 4, 2020 10:49:19 GMT -5
I have always maintained forgiveness typically involves the other person acknowledging the wrong accompanied by an effort to stop doing it. No. The other person acknowledging the wrong and an effort to stop doing it would be THEIR apology, followed by a change in their behavior. That doesn't create nor prevent forgiveness. You can totally not forgive someone irrespective of their humility and contrition. Forgiveness is a choice - your choice. It might be easier to achieve if they express contrition and change, but it isn't contingent on what they do. The forgiveness is for you to hold in your own heart - not for them. You can choose to tell them if you want. It exists irrespective of their knowledge of it. You don't need to come to agreement on forgiveness either. They may feel they deserve forgiveness which isn't given. They may feel they don't deserve forgiveness, or they might not want it because they may feel there is a cost attached to it that they don't want to pay. But rather than being all kumbayah and lighting candles with this stuff, I'm looking at it from a practical, self-interested sense. It's like a thing I read online. It was "I'm sad for people who don't find farts hilarious. Because they are going to be exposed to exactly the same amount of farts across their lives." Having an ex-spouse can be a bit like that, especially if you have kids. That person is going to be in your life for a long time - maybe forever. It's going to be someone you contend with at birthdays, Christmases, your kids' weddings, maybe when they die, or when you fall sick. So how do you want that to feel going forward across the next number of decades, in those moments? Forgiveness doesn't excuse or make ok what they did. For me, it is a way of looking at my ex-wife and her deplorable behavior and destructive choices that allows me to view her with empathy, and to move on to something new, outside of our old dynamic.
|
|
|
Post by saarinista on Feb 4, 2020 19:31:17 GMT -5
I have always maintained forgiveness typically involves the other person acknowledging the wrong accompanied by an effort to stop doing it. Actually I think what you're describing is more of a quid pro quo. Forgiveness typically is independent of the transgressor's apologies and restitution, or lack thereof. The latter would be more of a reset, wouldn't it? Try to let go of the resentment and regrets. To quote (more or less) lthe great, late MLK Jr., "... Hate is much too great a burden to bear." ❤️
|
|
completelybaked
Junior Member
"I have become comfortably numb" - Pink Floyd
Posts: 29
Age Range: 70+
|
Post by completelybaked on Feb 5, 2020 0:24:17 GMT -5
That is the one thing I have had a hard time with is acceptance and forgiveness. I hold onto so much resentment for it. I’ve pretty much exhausted all of my options counseling, talking to her, trying to figure out what is wrong. But every time I even bring it up she gets pissed off and turns everything back on me. So I just go back into my hole and try to get my mind off of it. I can relate. I can handle the acceptance (my wife's total loss of libido is a result of medical issues), but I'm not in a position to offer forgiveness unless she actually implemented real change or we separate and I move on. Acceptance without forgiveness can also be called "endure", which many of us continue to go through today. It's a choice each of us has to make. Those of us doing it for a while (I've got 15 years "practice") each has our own coping mechanisms. We've been there: counseling (hers, mine and ours), talks, promises, rejections, solo relief, moving out, affairs, etc. They may help. They may not. You will still have to deal with the SM mindfuck (it's very real as I see you are experiencing). You can go back in that hole, but you cannot escape. Instead, you need to own it. Enduring is perfectly valid as long as you understand and accept it. It is your choice.
|
|
|
Post by saarinista on Feb 5, 2020 15:36:31 GMT -5
Perhaps a "Squid pro quo" would work better for you? ? 😁 Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by brianbk on Feb 6, 2020 5:13:32 GMT -5
That is the one thing I have had a hard time with is acceptance and forgiveness. I hold onto so much resentment for it. I’ve pretty much exhausted all of my options counseling, talking to her, trying to figure out what is wrong. But every time I even bring it up she gets pissed off and turns everything back on me. So I just go back into my hole and try to get my mind off of it. I can relate. I can handle the acceptance (my wife's total loss of libido is a result of medical issues), but I'm not in a position to offer forgiveness unless she actually implemented real change or we separate and I move on. Acceptance without forgiveness can also be called "endure", which many of us continue to go through today. It's a choice each of us has to make. Those of us doing it for a while (I've got 15 years "practice") each has our own coping mechanisms. We've been there: counseling (hers, mine and ours), talks, promises, rejections, solo relief, moving out, affairs, etc. They may help. They may not. You will still have to deal with the SM mindfuck (it's very real as I see you are experiencing). You can go back in that hole, but you cannot escape. Instead, you need to own it. Enduring is perfectly valid as long as you understand and accept it. It is your choice.
|
|
|
Post by brianbk on Feb 6, 2020 5:17:14 GMT -5
Sorry if I reposted that I am still figuring out how to work these forums. I’ve accepted a sm forgiveness is hard to me because my wife will say she wants to work on it (around other people) but when it’s her and I and I suggest we talk about it she jumps down my throat and pretty much makes me feel guilty for asking. So it’s kind of a double edged sword.
|
|
|
Post by h on Feb 6, 2020 6:34:46 GMT -5
Sorry if I reposted that I am still figuring out how to work these forums. I’ve accepted a sm forgiveness is hard to me because my wife will say she wants to work on it (around other people) but when it’s her and I and I suggest we talk about it she jumps down my throat and pretty much makes me feel guilty for asking. So it’s kind of a double edged sword. If she acts differently around others, call her out on that in front of those people. If she claims to want to work on it tell her "You're only saying that because your friend ______ is here. As soon as we're alone again you're not going to follow through." Refuse to allow her to lie. Refuse to participate in her deception. You can even phrase it like that. "If you want to lie in front of your friends, I'm not going to go along with it." Edit: iliasm.org/post/80485/threadI had some experience with my W trying to put on a facade. The thread link above was how it went including some updates after.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Feb 13, 2020 16:54:34 GMT -5
Hi all, I was just wondering if I am the only one out there who’s day is and thoughts are constantly consumed by this and the added stress that goes with it? If so does anyone have any tips on how they deal with it? Everytime I see a woman I wonder if she makes love to someone and why I’m the only one who can’t find someone like that. I guess my day is consumed by the same thought. I usually crawl into my depression state.
|
|
|
Post by saarinista on Feb 13, 2020 23:17:39 GMT -5
michael you're not the only one suffering. We're all here because we are or we're in the same place as you.
|
|
|
Post by lessingham on Feb 14, 2020 4:39:40 GMT -5
I once read a meme about forgiveness. John Paul II visited the man who shot him in jail. He forgave him as a good Christian, but left him in jail. We can forgive but there is still the debt to be paid.
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Feb 14, 2020 6:58:06 GMT -5
“expectations are premeditated resentment” - some wise, poor soul Traditional marriage involves great expectations by not only the couple but also the family and society at large. A few of those are enumerated in what we call vows. For anyone thinking about getting married or remarried, might I suggest you give careful consideration to which vows you choose? For those already married, give equal consideration to those chosen for you (and implore or admonish your spouse to do the same) Some suggested clarifications to traditional vows: -I shall hold you tight, lest you feel you’ve merely been had. -If I claim to love, I damn well better cherish you. -Especially if you fall ill (physically, mentally or otherwise), so that you may be restored to health. -I shall strive for better, should things get worse. -I will forsake all others, but never you, my love. -Until death, or we part. Couple optional new-age add-ins: -Should you find the strength to share a concern, I shall hear you. -In remorseful error, forgiveness will be extended. I have some thoughts on vows too. When I neglected my wife because I'd been dedicating serious time to planning outsourcing, I asked myself about the vows I made. I asked what the difference between love and cherish was. I'd decided love was the kindness I show her, cherish is the gratitude I feel for what she provides me. Studies tell us that gratitude is one of the strongest components of contentment. It can weigh in heavy on a marriage. We can focus on what we do not get from our spouses, or make note of the good things, even if they are few, or low priority to us. Honor is to demonstrate respect and perhaps to elevate her esteem in the community; ensure recognition for merit our spouse deserves, within the marriage or outside it. Finally, we come to the promise America fixates on: forsaking all others. If you are not loved, honored, or cherished, no one tends to call a spouse out on those. It comes across as whiny and needy. It's a position no one wants to be in and therefore failures to attend to vows can go unaddressed with impunity. The subjectiveness makes the vows difficult (impossible?) to enforce? Is there enough love? Or are you too demanding/unrealistic? Is the other person grateful? How can you tell? Have you been taken for granted? Or are you exaggerating your efforts or immodest enough to seek approval? But by Godfrey, forsaking is like pregnancy. You are either faithful or not. It's a toggle. No gradations. As you point out though, the favorite vow to break up marriages over acknowledges just the one word. Forsaking. To forsake one's spouse is to cherry pick your words. You vow to forsake all OTHERS. This means not forsaking your spouse. This too can be abused through subjectivity (if your spouse mounts you on your deathbed but no time before, can they claim proudly to have been a true lover to you until the very end?) If the spouse should happen to find unilateral editing acceptable, would they be similarly sanguine if you dispensed with the word ALL in that vow? Forsaking 3.5 billion potential partners but making exceptions for two or three candidates? Finally, my wife's clinical depression is a wicked curveball because depression prevents you from taking action to fix your problems. If strangled libido is an issue, her depression understandably stops the problem from getting solved, even should it be desired. We do not abandon our spouses should they fall ill. But why promise to love honor and cherish when times are good? Why include dedication to vows when someone is "in health"? Why include the easy part? Perhaps this may be a call for a debilitated spouse to be mindful of the sacrifices made by the healthy spouse? He or she may be able to perform all the activities they once enjoyed together but no longer does because they feel compelled to be by their sick partner's side at all opportunities. Perhaps it is a duty of the sick spouse to ensure that their healthy spouse live the blessed lives they've been allowed to continue. They need to keep playing tennis. They need to travel. They need to go to the gym and be away from you some of the time, doing these things, perhaps with others. I don't think I'm being subtle by leaving out another example. We can touch on richer and poorer another day, but suffice to say that finances are a chief cause of divorce and I suspect most of those don't involve the trauma of being suddenly affluent. (though some surely do!)
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Feb 14, 2020 7:26:01 GMT -5
Sorry if I reposted that I am still figuring out how to work these forums. I’ve accepted a sm forgiveness is hard to me because my wife will say she wants to work on it (around other people) but when it’s her and I and I suggest we talk about it she jumps down my throat and pretty much makes me feel guilty for asking. So it’s kind of a double edged sword. If she acts differently around others, call her out on that in front of those people. If she claims to want to work on it tell her "You're only saying that because your friend ______ is here. As soon as we're alone again you're not going to follow through." Refuse to allow her to lie. Refuse to participate in her deception. You can even phrase it like that. "If you want to lie in front of your friends, I'm not going to go along with it." Edit: iliasm.org/post/80485/threadI had some experience with my W trying to put on a facade. The thread link above was how it went including some updates after. I've seen people react this way on Experience Project (RIP). Some have made a show of it, introducing their spouse as "their roommate" to bring about public awareness of their sexual status, leaving the guests to puzzle the meaning of the odd epithet. It rarely went over well and raising the temperature of a relationship doesn't strike me as useful towards bringing about desirable interaction. Allowing a spouse to construct a facade surely chafes. Still, the use of lies to pretend to be doing something one isn't hints that the person is aware that sexlessness in a marriage is shameful (or faithless attempts to change the sexlessness). Rather than expect admission or improvement in the earnestness with which one's refusing spouse takes your distress, I'd sooner suggest considering the observation some hold (and I fear it's true) that we cannot change others. We can only change ourselves. I've learned the hard way that attempts to instill guilt in others provides them reason to resent you. This solidifies their opposition to fixing problems you may have. The desire to be closer gets that much harder. I didn't read the entire thread to see whether guilt trips were a part of it. It looked like "h" was simply basking in validation of a third party. And who would deprive him?! I wish I could find the video I'm thinking of. It's a man who points out how silly it is to get mad at a Coke machine that takes your money, then no soda comes out no matter how many times you push the buttons. It's out of soda. Go ask for a refund, pull the lever to get your money back, or shrug and walk away and don't go back to that machine anymore, or be okay with it if the machine is still broken. Apocrypha might add, if the machine works for everyone but you, it still makes no sense to get mad at it. You still ain't getting soda and you'll lose your money. Anger is energy better spent solving the problem with a sense of resolve. People refer to "a light at the end of the tunnel" as a metaphor for the foreseeable end of a trying circumstance. If one doesn't see, or even look for a light in the darkness, whence do we expect hope to emerge and what takes its place?
|
|
|
Post by h on Feb 14, 2020 9:17:44 GMT -5
If she acts differently around others, call her out on that in front of those people. If she claims to want to work on it tell her "You're only saying that because your friend ______ is here. As soon as we're alone again you're not going to follow through." Refuse to allow her to lie. Refuse to participate in her deception. You can even phrase it like that. "If you want to lie in front of your friends, I'm not going to go along with it." Edit: iliasm.org/post/80485/threadI had some experience with my W trying to put on a facade. The thread link above was how it went including some updates after. I've seen people react this way on Experience Project (RIP). Some have made a show of it, introducing their spouse as "their roommate" to bring about public awareness of their sexual status, leaving the guests to puzzle the meaning of the odd epithet. It rarely went over well and raising the temperature of a relationship doesn't strike me as useful towards bringing about desirable interaction. Allowing a spouse to construct a facade surely chafes. Still, the use of lies to pretend to be doing something one isn't hints that the person is aware that sexlessness in a marriage is shameful (or faithless attempts to change the sexlessness). Rather than expect admission or improvement in the earnestness with which one's refusing spouse takes your distress, I'd sooner suggest considering the observation some hold (and I fear it's true) that we cannot change others. We can only change ourselves. I've learned the hard way that attempts to instill guilt in others provides them reason to resent you. This solidifies their opposition to fixing problems you may have. The desire to be closer gets that much harder. I didn't read the entire thread to see whether guilt trips were a part of it. It looked like "h" was simply basking in validation of a third party. And who would deprive him?! I wish I could find the video I'm thinking of. It's a man who points out how silly it is to get mad at a Coke machine that takes your money, then no soda comes out no matter how many times you push the buttons. It's out of soda. Go ask for a refund, pull the lever to get your money back, or shrug and walk away and don't go back to that machine anymore, or be okay with it if the machine is still broken. Apocrypha might add, if the machine works for everyone but you, it still makes no sense to get mad at it. You still ain't getting soda and you'll lose your money. Anger is energy better spent solving the problem with a sense of resolve. People refer to "a light at the end of the tunnel" as a metaphor for the foreseeable end of a trying circumstance. If one doesn't see, or even look for a light in the darkness, whence do we expect hope to emerge and what takes its place? It has nothing to do with making the refuser feel guilty. My point was to stop the refuser from providing negative and untrue statements about the refused. I never bring up my SM situation around others because it's normally not relevant to the discussion. The only time I ever discuss it in front of others is if my W tries to portray a false image or negative comment about me specifically related to the state of sex in our marriage. If sex isn't brought up, I won't be the one to do it. I'm not going to be the one to instigate trouble like your EP reference. I just put a quick stop to the facade. As for other comments, I counter those accordingly. Ex: she complained about me not doing some task around the house in front of her friends once. I responded that I was too busy after doing all the laundry, cooking and dishes all week and that maybe if she helped, I would have time to do more. It's not about being offensive or confrontational. It's self defense, and shutting down her lies and attacks before she gets going and letting her know that it's unacceptable.
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Feb 17, 2020 14:19:59 GMT -5
It has nothing to do with making the refuser feel guilty. My point was to stop the refuser from providing negative and untrue statements about the refused. I never bring up my SM situation around others because it's normally not relevant to the discussion. The only time I ever discuss it in front of others is if my W tries to portray a false image or negative comment about me specifically related to the state of sex in our marriage. If sex isn't brought up, I won't be the one to do it. I'm not going to be the one to instigate trouble like your EP reference. I just put a quick stop to the facade. As for other comments, I counter those accordingly. Ex: she complained about me not doing some task around the house in front of her friends once. I responded that I was too busy after doing all the laundry, cooking and dishes all week and that maybe if she helped, I would have time to do more. It's not about being offensive or confrontational. It's self defense, and shutting down her lies and attacks before she gets going and letting her know that it's unacceptable. Cool. I don't recall seeing an entry where guilt was successful. That's an invitation to starfish sex. Holy cow dude. You're your wife's maid too? My wife folds laundry, that's about it. I've not done it in front of others, but the wife has asked "Why can't you...(insert work that really should be done around the house)?" To which I fix her with a stare and say, "Really? Ok, hun. I'll work harder." She stopped asking some time last year.
|
|
|
Post by Handy on Feb 17, 2020 15:57:13 GMT -5
Perfect house, manicured lawn, what more would a person want? OH yea, unlimited spending account.
|
|