|
Post by carl on Feb 6, 2020 11:19:44 GMT -5
Apocrypha “sex three times a week ! “ I think you must be thinking of somebody else. Every 3 months maybe before I just put a stop completely.
|
|
|
Post by carl on Feb 6, 2020 11:56:16 GMT -5
Apocrypha“So, consider that yes - it's about control. A partner has sexual desires, but also wants to express those desires only with the people they want, while avoiding it with the people they don't. That will be read by someone in your position or mine as being about controlling us, so long as we begin from the premise that they secretly want to have sex with us. THEY DON'T. Whether or not we are attractive etc - if they wanted to - it would be easy.” I don’t think my wife has many sexual desires. I think maybe she wishes she did but she doesn’t. You see if she did then given how she is in life she would go and live out her desire. I feel sure that nothing would inhibit her and she would do precisely what she wants. I think that if she had desires for sex she would just divorce me or have an affair. Probably divorce. But if it suited her then an affair. However I don’t think she sees sex as anything particularly great or desirable in life. I think she was just made like that with a manipulative competitive and comparative attitude on top. If she had ever had desires for another man then as h said one would have a case for divorce. But divorcing a women who is frigid - well as I am sure you can tell I am not sure if I personally would or wouldn’t. It’s a grey area.
|
|
|
Post by h on Feb 6, 2020 12:37:46 GMT -5
carl I don't think it really matters if one "has a case for divorce" in many places. In my state, there is no fault in divorces. My W could run around with every guy in town and it would make zero difference in any divorce settlement. The only difference it would make is socially and with how my friends and family view the situation. Financially, I'd still have to pay to support her.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Feb 6, 2020 16:03:01 GMT -5
I don’t think my wife has many sexual desires. [...] I think that if she had desires for sex she would just divorce me or have an affair. A person who is married and feeling ambivalent about sex will generally still have it if their partner wants it. A person who is avoiding sex, when something is at stake - an argument, or possibly, the marriage - won't. That's not indifference - it's a person taking a risk and paying a cost to avoid it. It's just as likely from her perspective that YOU could launch the divorce or have the affair, as a consequence. So if you two decided to split, you think she'd remain celibate the rest of her life, relieved that she did not have to have sex anymore.
|
|
|
Post by carl on Feb 6, 2020 17:22:11 GMT -5
I don’t think my wife has many sexual desires. [...] I think that if she had desires for sex she would just divorce me or have an affair. A person who is married and feeling ambivalent about sex will generally still have it if their partner wants it. A person who is avoiding sex, when something is at stake - an argument, or possibly, the marriage - won't. That's not indifference - it's a person taking a risk and paying a cost to avoid it. It's just as likely from her perspective that YOU could launch the divorce or have the affair, as a consequence. So if you two decided to split, you think she'd remain celibate the rest of her life, relieved that she did not have to have sex anymore. My W doesn’t do things she feels ambivalent about. Especially if somebody else feels more than ambivalent. She knows I won’t divorce - she’d soon change if she thought I would but she often asks me to reassure her that I won’t and tells me of the dreadful life it would lead to. She doubts that I would have an affair, of any significance at least, on her watch so there’s really very little risk on her side. But that’s why I cease to have any sexual contact with her. I guess it increases the risk and brings home the reality. Yes a believe she would remain celibate for the rest of her life if we separated. She’d live alone and socialise as she pleased. But I doubt she’d have any sexual relationships.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Feb 7, 2020 11:09:38 GMT -5
That would be a dream come true for me. I think if my W had an affair, I would thank her. Having a socially acceptable reason for filing for divorce would set me up much better. (It would make no difference in any divorce proceedings and would have no effect on the outcome in court.) I would have more solid support from my family who otherwise would be either distant or a thorn in my side. They have some messed up religious inspired morals that will be difficult to deal with when I do split, but if I fit their definition of a victim then I would have their financial support also to get back on my feet meaning I could file immediately. My wife cheating would be an absolute win for me. There's truth in "the affair is a gift" sentiment - but maybe something more practical underneath it. The affair is a result or consequence. Maybe you can move further up the process that leads to that same result, and recognize it. Consider the two of you at the altar on your wedding day. You each are about to take a vow of celibacy, similar to the kind of oath taken by a priest or nun. As long as you both remain celibate, you both are in compliance with your marriage. Do you think either of you would continue with the ceremony? Would you both agree that a lifetime vow of celibacy for each of you is not at all what you'd consider a marriage to be? How is that different from, say, a really amicable separation with high cooperation on the household and the kids? Starting with your view of marriage and hers, do you think you'd both be on the same page about what you each agree is the nature of a marriage? If a vow of celibacy is inconsistent with that view, would you really need to wait for the affair to happen eventually?
|
|
|
Post by h on Feb 7, 2020 14:08:48 GMT -5
That would be a dream come true for me. I think if my W had an affair, I would thank her. Having a socially acceptable reason for filing for divorce would set me up much better. (It would make no difference in any divorce proceedings and would have no effect on the outcome in court.) I would have more solid support from my family who otherwise would be either distant or a thorn in my side. They have some messed up religious inspired morals that will be difficult to deal with when I do split, but if I fit their definition of a victim then I would have their financial support also to get back on my feet meaning I could file immediately. My wife cheating would be an absolute win for me. There's truth in "the affair is a gift" sentiment - but maybe something more practical underneath it. The affair is a result or consequence. Maybe you can move further up the process that leads to that same result, and recognize it. Consider the two of you at the altar on your wedding day. You each are about to take a vow of celibacy, similar to the kind of oath taken by a priest or nun. As long as you both remain celibate, you both are in compliance with your marriage. Do you think either of you would continue with the ceremony? Would you both agree that a lifetime vow of celibacy for each of you is not at all what you'd consider a marriage to be? How is that different from, say, a really amicable separation with high cooperation on the household and the kids? Starting with your view of marriage and hers, do you think you'd both be on the same page about what you each agree is the nature of a marriage? If a vow of celibacy is inconsistent with that view, would you really need to wait for the affair to happen eventually? In your scenario of standing at the altar to take a vow of celibacy, no I wouldn't go through with it. I think my wife would. She doesn't view sex as a requirement for a romantic relationship so, sex or not, she would (and currently does) believe that a marriage is possible to maintain. We are absolutely not on the same page. The difference is that since she actually does believe that sex isn't necessary for a marriage to be successful, I would be tearing apart something that she thinks is fine the way it is. That would turn her into an angry and vindictive person, complicating and drawing out a divorce out of spite. I fully intend to divorce as soon as it is financially feasible to do so. Divorcing over lack of sex would not be supported by my family and I would have to be able to get by on my own as a result. That's why I'm not lawyer shopping yet. I cannot reasonably afford to pay my current bills in addition to any amount of alimony for any length of time beyond a few months. The reason why an affair would be a gift is that it would set me up as a victim to my family (instead of the selfish degenerate hedonist leaving his "faithful" wife over something so trivial as sex). It would do nothing to change my own mind. I'm going to divorce one way or another eventually. The benefit of that occurrence would be in changing the perception of my family and their subsequent support after a divorce. My mother would give me a place to stay temporarily and a place to store my things until I found a new place to live. My father knows people who could help fix up my house to get the best sale price for it quickly. If I'm seen as a victim, I can count on help and could move up my timeline. If not, I'm alone and have to delay until I do more prep work. *All this is academic though because I seriously doubt she would ever have an affair. She has many cases of infidelity in her family and it has made her into a very judgemental person about cheating. She hates cheaters more than anything. I've even tested the waters in conversation a few times talking about people we know who have been caught. It truly disgusts her. Too bad for me.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Feb 7, 2020 16:32:37 GMT -5
In your scenario of standing at the altar to take a vow of celibacy, no I wouldn't go through with it. I think my wife would. She doesn't view sex as a requirement for a romantic relationship so, sex or not, she would (and currently does) believe that a marriage is possible to maintain. We are absolutely not on the same page. The difference is that since she actually does believe that sex isn't necessary for a marriage to be successful, I would be tearing apart something that she thinks is fine the way it is. It's why the scenario I offered is specifically about the vow on the wedding day, rather than the question of whether it's "worth it" to divorce over the lack of sex. Help me make sure I understand, h. There are different cultural practices and expectations. Are you suggesting that your wife was celibate when she was your girlfriend, and as fiance? So she was not giving up her sexual life and aspirations by marrying you? Or, she felt it was worth it to give up sexual fulfillment with a partner because of the other benefits associated with marriage to you, at the time of marriage? I think frequently people come to this question about the wedding day vow by playing the ball from where it lays now - today. So, it becomes a question of weighing the total sunk cost package of the household, co-parenting, shared finances, the enjoyment of family, the security etc against the loss of sex. Weighing it that way, it isn't about what you think a marriage IS. It's about whether you think you can maintain the benefits associated with the marriage.But the question of choosing to maintain all those things, minus the sex, is different from my scenario posed, which goes to the principle of what a marriage is. Would she sign up for celibacy as an intentional part of marriage? If so, given that it is so significant as an intention- wouldn't that have been discussed? Because... she's risking a divorce right now, and losing all those things. So it's not just that she "doesn't view sex as a requirement". It's that she views the avoidance of sex with you is worth the risk of hurting you, and the loss of most or all of the benefits associated with marriage. So it's not like it's not important or that she feels indifferent about sex with you.
|
|
|
Post by h on Feb 8, 2020 9:53:12 GMT -5
In your scenario of standing at the altar to take a vow of celibacy, no I wouldn't go through with it. I think my wife would. She doesn't view sex as a requirement for a romantic relationship so, sex or not, she would (and currently does) believe that a marriage is possible to maintain. We are absolutely not on the same page. The difference is that since she actually does believe that sex isn't necessary for a marriage to be successful, I would be tearing apart something that she thinks is fine the way it is. It's why the scenario I offered is specifically about the vow on the wedding day, rather than the question of whether it's "worth it" to divorce over the lack of sex. Help me make sure I understand, h. There are different cultural practices and expectations. Are you suggesting that your wife was celibate when she was your girlfriend, and as fiance? So she was not giving up her sexual life and aspirations by marrying you? Or, she felt it was worth it to give up sexual fulfillment with a partner because of the other benefits associated with marriage to you, at the time of marriage? I think frequently people come to this question about the wedding day vow by playing the ball from where it lays now - today. So, it becomes a question of weighing the total sunk cost package of the household, co-parenting, shared finances, the enjoyment of family, the security etc against the loss of sex. Weighing it that way, it isn't about what you think a marriage IS. It's about whether you think you can maintain the benefits associated with the marriage.But the question of choosing to maintain all those things, minus the sex, is different from my scenario posed, which goes to the principle of what a marriage is. Would she sign up for celibacy as an intentional part of marriage? If so, given that it is so significant as an intention- wouldn't that have been discussed? Because... she's risking a divorce right now, and losing all those things. So it's not just that she "doesn't view sex as a requirement". It's that she views the avoidance of sex with you is worth the risk of hurting you, and the loss of most or all of the benefits associated with marriage. So it's not like it's not important or that she feels indifferent about sex with you. I'm saying that we were celibate while dating and engaged. That was the intention from the start. We had been dating and then engaged for about 5 years before we got married. Sex wasn't discussed, which I admit was a mistake in hindsight, but at the time I didn't know it was a discussion that needed to happen. I assumed that marriage meant that sex would happen. Given that we were together for that length of time before marriage and didn't have sex, obviously my wife assumed that I was ok having a sexless relationship, which she obviously wanted. I'm saying that yes, she would have made that vow on that day to just continue being celibate because we already were. She wouldn't have anything to lose and everything to gain.
|
|
|
Post by baza on Feb 8, 2020 18:28:07 GMT -5
Shit! I wonder why that didn’t work for me. This divorce would have been so much easier! :-) That would be a dream come true for me. I think if my W had an affair, I would thank her. Having a socially acceptable reason for filing for divorce would set me up much better. (It would make no difference in any divorce proceedings and would have no effect on the outcome in court.) I would have more solid support from my family who otherwise would be either distant or a thorn in my side. They have some messed up religious inspired morals that will be difficult to deal with when I do split, but if I fit their definition of a victim then I would have their financial support also to get back on my feet meaning I could file immediately. My wife cheating would be an absolute win for me. This is interesting Brother h . If you divorced in a no fault jurisdiction it would make no difference to the outcome. But, if your family thought infidelity on her part was in play then they would support you in divorcing. So were you to divorce, and put a spin on it that alluded to infidelity or some other issue (like financial irresponsibility or some other "good" reason) being in play then the two boxes - - you getting divorced - and - your family's support of you - are ticked. A resourceful bloke like you might be able to put such a spin on the situation without ever directly accusing her of anything. You might be able to sow the seed, and then take a position that you "don't want to talk about it as it's too painful" or the enigmatic position of "you'd need to ask her about that". It all depends on how bad you want out. Bad enough to handle the truth a tad carelessly short term ?
|
|
|
Post by saarinista on Feb 8, 2020 21:31:35 GMT -5
It's why the scenario I offered is specifically about the vow on the wedding day, rather than the question of whether it's "worth it" to divorce over the lack of sex. Help me make sure I understand, h. There are different cultural practices and expectations. Are you suggesting that your wife was celibate when she was your girlfriend, and as fiance? So she was not giving up her sexual life and aspirations by marrying you? Or, she felt it was worth it to give up sexual fulfillment with a partner because of the other benefits associated with marriage to you, at the time of marriage? I think frequently people come to this question about the wedding day vow by playing the ball from where it lays now - today. So, it becomes a question of weighing the total sunk cost package of the household, co-parenting, shared finances, the enjoyment of family, the security etc against the loss of sex. Weighing it that way, it isn't about what you think a marriage IS. It's about whether you think you can maintain the benefits associated with the marriage.But the question of choosing to maintain all those things, minus the sex, is different from my scenario posed, which goes to the principle of what a marriage is. Would she sign up for celibacy as an intentional part of marriage? If so, given that it is so significant as an intention- wouldn't that have been discussed? Because... she's risking a divorce right now, and losing all those things. So it's not just that she "doesn't view sex as a requirement". It's that she views the avoidance of sex with you is worth the risk of hurting you, and the loss of most or all of the benefits associated with marriage. So it's not like it's not important or that she feels indifferent about sex with you. I'm saying that we were celibate while dating and engaged. That was the intention from the start. We had been dating and then engaged for about 5 years before we got married. Sex wasn't discussed, which I admit was a mistake in hindsight, but at the time I didn't know it was a discussion that needed to happen. I assumed that marriage meant that sex would happen. Given that we were together for that length of time before marriage and didn't have sex, obviously my wife assumed that I was ok having a sexless relationship, which she obviously wanted. I'm saying that yes, she would have made that vow on that day to just continue being celibate because we already were. She wouldn't have anything to lose and everything to gain. I believe you, h, but it's still amazing to me that in this day and age, anyone could expect a normal marriage NOT to include sex. Are you saying you think your wife EXPECTED forever celibacy? Or are you just saying that she would have been FINE with no sex, though she grudginy HAS tolerated just a bit of it? Anyway, I just have to say again that while people's religious beliefs are highly personal (and what do I know-maybe I'm going to hell in a handbasket) I personally wish religions could be more sex-positive. I mean, come on!
|
|
|
Post by h on Feb 8, 2020 22:17:23 GMT -5
I'm saying that we were celibate while dating and engaged. That was the intention from the start. We had been dating and then engaged for about 5 years before we got married. Sex wasn't discussed, which I admit was a mistake in hindsight, but at the time I didn't know it was a discussion that needed to happen. I assumed that marriage meant that sex would happen. Given that we were together for that length of time before marriage and didn't have sex, obviously my wife assumed that I was ok having a sexless relationship, which she obviously wanted. I'm saying that yes, she would have made that vow on that day to just continue being celibate because we already were. She wouldn't have anything to lose and everything to gain. I believe you, h , but it's still amazing to me that in this day and age, anyone could expect a normal marriage NOT to include sex. Are you saying you think your wife EXPECTED forever celibacy? Or are you just saying that she would have been FINE with no sex, though she grudginy HAS tolerated just a bit of it? Anyway, I just have to say again that while people's religious beliefs are highly personal (and what do I know-maybe I'm going to hell in a handbasket) I personally wish religions could be more sex-positive. I mean, come on! I think it's more your second option. I don't think she seriously expected celibacy, but it that were the choice offered, she would have no problem picking it. I think her parents have been in a SM for a very long time and she just learned that was normal. I think sex for her was just something she thought she had to do a few times in our early years and then it would be over. I don't think she expected me to want sex as much as I do considering I never pressed the issue before marriage. I think our situation was born out of pure ignorance on both our parts. She didn't think sex was really important and I didn't know that about her back then. I thought that by following the rules and waiting for marriage, she would be even more happy to reward my patience and have lots of it after marriage. You're right about religions dropping the ball on sex. I think a few are just beginning to come around, but it's too little too late for me. I gave up on going to church once I realized how much they left it to chance and just hoped for the best.
|
|
|
Post by lifeinwoodinville on Feb 9, 2020 0:53:27 GMT -5
I gave up on trying for sex years ago. Roughly about the same time I moved out of her bedroom. I realized one day that sex was never going to happen with her and even if it did it wouldn’t be what I wanted anyway. It feels good to not have to deal with the rejection, that was killing me. Even if I were to try for sex today she would shut me down. She thinks I am having an affair. I’ve had three in the last five years but she knows nothing about those women. She thinks I am sleeping with my coworker. My coworker is a good friend but I am not attracted to her. As far as I am concerned, my wife can think whatever she wants. I don’t care.
|
|
|
Post by sadkat on Feb 9, 2020 10:01:40 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Feb 10, 2020 4:50:33 GMT -5
...made efforts not to to "dote" or trod on what we agreed felt like husband territory. For example, I had an unspoken rule that I would not send or give flowers, or otherwise offer a token in her household that would make my presence linger past my walking out the threshold. I was careful in the restaurants I chose, so I did not make her husband feel financially eclipsed by my comparative wealth. At Christmas and special days - small things like chocolates or wine, or fudge. ... prior to all that - I ran the strategy of isolating myself from friends and social events, for fear of having an affair myself. I really did a good job of that - neglecting my social needs and friends, and becoming a less interesting person overall, who also didn't bother her for sex. It was after that, that she had the affair. re: keeping mementos out of it. You were a very courteous thoughtful paramour! I'm making note. I personally prefer "kitchen-table poly" where my I am friends with my paramour's husband/beau. If he needs to move a couch, he calls me. If there's a token of affection around for a few days (flowers), he'd hopefully not see it as a threat but as a cooperative effort to keep his wife/lady friend bubbly. My own poly relationship in 1994 was like that, but then I was the one welcoming in my girlfriend's second beau. I'm friends with both even today. Friends with that old flame's husband too. Had me as a guest for a few days last month. (but they are fiercely monogamous, it was plenty clear without even asking) As for the isolating part. I've done that by accident. I'm peeling myself away from my very humdrum life at home a little. It's quite a small thing, but leaving my clinically depressed wife at home alone feels like betrayal. Listening to a podcast about co-dependency and I suspect that's what we had/have. Might be a lot of that in SMs.
|
|