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Post by isthisit on Feb 4, 2020 15:33:24 GMT -5
Oh that’s a nice compromise isn’t it? We will go to Antarctica first, and @deadzone can do his thing in the (whale blubber) kitchen and we can get busy under the furry blankets. Then we can head straight up to Costa Rica. You and I can then get busy thawing delicious DZ with oily friction until he gets all warmed up again. A reasonable compromise if I ever heard of one. Shall we see what he says or just organise it? Next week okay for you sadkat ? I have the blubber and the oil. Just say when... Sounds like an advert for a niche sex worker 😂😂😂.
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Post by isthisit on Feb 4, 2020 15:36:58 GMT -5
Are they the LGBT+ rainbow flag budgie smugglers or the leopard print ones? I had them custom made with a blue star over the junk. Ah, the star! That’s what people were staring at 🤔?
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Post by deadzone75 on Feb 4, 2020 15:45:16 GMT -5
I had them custom made with a blue star over the junk. Ah, the star! That’s what people were staring at 🤔? I represent my team at all times.
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Post by sadkat on Feb 4, 2020 15:47:42 GMT -5
I have the blubber and the oil. Just say when... Sounds like an advert for a niche sex worker 😂😂😂. A Cowboys fan down to his budgie smugglers! 😂😂
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Post by isthisit on Feb 4, 2020 16:08:45 GMT -5
Ah, the star! That’s what people were staring at 🤔? I represent my team at all times. Are they bollocks your team then? 😉
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Post by deadzone75 on Feb 4, 2020 17:00:18 GMT -5
Sounds like an advert for a niche sex worker 😂😂😂. A Cowboys fan down to his budgie smugglers! 😂😂 Right down to my birthday suit! I have a helmet tattooed on my arm.
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Post by carl on Feb 4, 2020 19:51:24 GMT -5
Apocrypha I see what you are saying in terms of my wife not finding me attractive sexually. Believe me I understand that. But trust me she’s a strange woman. I’ve been with her since her mid twenties and compared to other women she’s always been a little guarded and cold around sex. She picked me, asked to date me, asked me to move in asked to marry me. She could have asked a lot of people. Doesn’t bother me that’s just how it was. I think she was attracted to me and still is. She is extremely selfish and gets her own way and if she was no longer attracted to me she’d send me packing in no time. She is manipulative. She wouldn’t stand the humiliation of living with a man she wasn’t still attracted to sexually. She’d go and live with one she was. Trust me she has a lot of control over that side of her life. But that’s exactly it - control. She doesn’t want sex , she wants control. She wouldn’t trade that control in if her life depended on it let alone soley for the sake of pleasure. Honestly there’s women around like that. I should know. Nobody will ever be good enough for them and they’ll always convince the one they’ve chosen that they aren’t worthy.
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 4, 2020 19:53:02 GMT -5
I am with you Carl. my W would have sex every two to three months. I found that the psychological issue with me is that we go through stages. It is easier to just not do it then go through the stages after sex. The doubts the anger the resentment and such. I just now don't initiate and the last time we had sex I told her I didn't want to because it was harder to have sex and then wait two or three months to do it again... I did it anyway and now we are again at 1 month. should have said NO.... Bang on! That was the biggest problem for me too. I wondered just how long it was so started recording the sessions in December of 2015. I was floored at the vast stretches of time that could go by without her seeming to notice. We'd make love seasonally and when we'd finished I'd think to myself. "That was really really nice. I suppose it'll be at least two months before we get to do that again." Of all the ways you're supposed to feel after sex, "wistful" just wasn't what I figured would become an old reliable friend. The French call the orgasm "le petit mort"; "the little death". For those of us in sexless marriages*, I think it's very apt. * I'm temporarily, technically, not IASM.
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Post by carl on Feb 4, 2020 20:03:48 GMT -5
isthisit I wouldn’t be persuaded into sex with my wife for the time being. Even if I was pissed up and she came on to me like there was no tomorrow. I am solid like that when I know what I want and why. She knows I am counter refusing but she doesn’t say anything.She pretends not to notice whilst thinking furiously how to deal with this and regain the previous status. If it was me I would say hey what’s going on, what’s wrong etc but not her. She has made the odd tiny comment. Clearly quietly furious but other than that she keeps her hand close to her chest. Amazing how revealing are her attempts to hide.
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Post by carl on Feb 4, 2020 20:16:34 GMT -5
I am with you Carl. my W would have sex every two to three months. I found that the psychological issue with me is that we go through stages. It is easier to just not do it then go through the stages after sex. The doubts the anger the resentment and such. I just now don't initiate and the last time we had sex I told her I didn't want to because it was harder to have sex and then wait two or three months to do it again... I did it anyway and now we are again at 1 month. should have said NO.... I think an important point here is that if you continue to have ocassional sex with the W then you are saying that you are possibly having a satisfying sexual relationship firstly and secondly that she has claim to you over other women. Remove the sex completely and never ask for it and flat refuse it if it’s offered then you are longer “hers.” She’ll know that although you’re not, you could soon legitimately be anyone’s. That makes people think and see reality. Have sex with your wife once in a while and in her eyes she owns you.
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Post by isthisit on Feb 5, 2020 4:36:22 GMT -5
isthisit I wouldn’t be persuaded into sex with my wife for the time being. Even if I was pissed up and she came on to me like there was no tomorrow. I am solid like that when I know what I want and why. She knows I am counter refusing but she doesn’t say anything.She pretends not to notice whilst thinking furiously how to deal with this and regain the previous status. If it was me I would say hey what’s going on, what’s wrong etc but not her. She has made the odd tiny comment. Clearly quietly furious but other than that she keeps her hand close to her chest. Amazing how revealing are her attempts to hide. Thank you for your response carl I better understand now. I am sorry to hear about your situation it sounds horribly toxic. You seem to be caught between two unpalatable options, engaged in a perpetual battle of wills to avoid a controlling W or your belief that you will be lonely should you call time on the M. I wonder if this is a fair summary of where you feel that you are at the moment? Of course both options today leave you celibate which sucks and ensures life has less colour regardless of how wonderful other aspects of your life may be. You owe it to yourself to identify and pursue a third way, either within or outside (formally or informally) of your M. This could be a formal separation, an affair or simply agreeing very separate lives under the same roof until your children have flown. Continuing as you are will slowly drain your soul. It’s hard to act I know because I’ve lived it and in some respects continue to do so. But I am infinitely happier, lighter and brighter. I enjoy being emotionally independent as it’s so much better than the bruising experience of a pseudo M which in my case was hollow and emotionally destitute. I wish you luck on your journey carl you sound like a nice man. I see no reason why in time you could not achieve a meaningful and emotionally rich relationship. It’s just finding the courage to get there.
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 5, 2020 12:34:20 GMT -5
Apocrypha I see what you are saying in terms of my wife not finding me attractive sexually. Believe me I understand that. But trust me she’s a strange woman. I’ve been with her since her mid twenties and compared to other women she’s always been a little guarded and cold around sex. She picked me, asked to date me, asked me to move in asked to marry me. She could have asked a lot of people. Doesn’t bother me that’s just how it was. I think she was attracted to me and still is. She is extremely selfish and gets her own way and if she was no longer attracted to me she’d send me packing in no time. She is manipulative. She wouldn’t stand the humiliation of living with a man she wasn’t still attracted to sexually. She’d go and live with one she was. Trust me she has a lot of control over that side of her life. But that’s exactly it - control. She doesn’t want sex , she wants control. She wouldn’t trade that control in if her life depended on it let alone solely for the sake of pleasure. Honestly there’s women around like that. I should know. Nobody will ever be good enough for them and they’ll always convince the one they’ve chosen that they aren’t worthy. Most or all things you wrote were similar to my own marriage. I'm not so much suggesting that your wife doesn't find you attractive sexually (or that you aren't objectively attractive as a person), as I am taking the wider and more definitive view that she does not view you as a sexual partner. Though if memory serves, I think you said you have sex 3 times a week or something - which seems a robust number by most standards here - however, you are likely reacting to the quality or character of the sex you have with her. A married person can tell if their partner actually wants the sex they are having. So I'll go with that. So, Mrs Apocrypha is also a funny egg in that she never really anticipated or desired marriage as a life goal, and had complex feelings and experiences around sex - with me, with others... In her view, if she was going to get married, it should be to someone like me, to have the best chance. And also, marriage offered a dream of stability and family that she wanted greatly, and I seemed like the kind of person who would bring that. And she was attracted to me and maybe still sees me as a person who is attractive. When we were single, she even chased after me for years, wanting a sexual relationship of some sort or another with me, and she pitched for us to live together - which was a big deal for me and not so much for her. There were all kinds of advantages and benefits to living together with a person, that were not necessarily available otherwise. But as to wanting to be married to me... that's a complex thing. I guess my point with that is that even though your partner is attractive and has choices, and even though they may take an active role in romantic pursuit, and see marriage (either in general, or to you) as presenting opportunities, there is a difference between appreciating and understanding all those things, and actively signing on to them and to YOU in their entirety. And, once married, across time and events, a person can find someone attractive but also the context changes, or they come to think of them in a different way - they can cease to be seen as a "viable sexual partner". I know women like that in my single life. They might be women I have in my friend-zone, for example. Or stunningly attractive but then I find out they are strident politically in a way that moves them outside of anything remotely attractive to me as a partner. So, consider that yes - it's about control. A partner has sexual desires, but also wants to express those desires only with the people they want, while avoiding it with the people they don't. That will be read by someone in your position or mine as being about controlling us, so long as we begin from the premise that they secretly want to have sex with us. THEY DON'T. Whether or not we are attractive etc - if they wanted to - it would be easy.
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 5, 2020 19:19:04 GMT -5
That's kind of scary. I don't mean to make our romantic relationship harder. Do you have a romantic relationship, to make harder? Oh, it's not at all that my paramours had any designs on interfering with our marriage. It was a little bit of lovely that worked within narrow parameters. And it wasn't even that I wanted my paramour more than my wife. Nor that my wife was lacking from her own attention from suitors. It wasn't a comparison - I wasn't picking between anyone. It was that my standard went up from rock bottom - from behavior that today would make me pull eject on a first date - to a level that I might expect from someone I had a romantic relationship with. It was that I was able to see the level of contempt in which I was steeping. I totally understand why anyone might read it as a comparison between two women, but really it felt more like an independent standard - MY standard - which was not being met. I also stepped up MY game at home, btw, as a result of discovering how I presented myself on a date with a new person. Consider this example. My ex-wife is chronically late for everything, and even though I'm personally not a rigidly punctual person, it upset me (particularly if we had an appointment with someone else and it reflected badly on me to someone else). This, of course, would prompt her to paint me as rigid and to defend her habitual lateness - the problem was mine, and how much I cared about how others perceive me, rather than about her not respecting others' time. Whatever we had planned for date night (my wife and me) from that point forward, was now out the window, spoiled by this interaction. But, with a new person, who also was late on occasion, or cancelled last minute - I tended to offer much more grace and didn't sweat the details. I also learned to raise my own standard of how I would treat my wife, to at least the level I expected her to be treated by a suitor trying to impress her. Towards the tail end of this exercise, we talked a bit about this "way of showing up" and it surprised her. She'd admitted she'd never occurred to her to pay attention to her own behavior or our dynamics in that way. For all her intention of discovery - there really wasn't much self-directed productive discovery or anything that she intended to use to benefit us. What I came to believe about that was this wasn't about making her marriage better - or finding something about herself to show up to our marriage in more vital way - but rather that it was a distraction and a release valve for the work of being in a relationship she didn't want. Which is the sabotage, though? Some aspect of this exchange reminds me of joining an assembly line, with my coworkers telling me to slow down so they don't look bad, instead of everyone working to a higher standard. The Mrs. and I have soft kisses, tight hugs, hand holding. I get her flowers and jewelry. I make her mocha coffee each morning. These, I think, would be seen by society as the trappings of a romance. It's been enhanced by my mistake of neglect in late 2018. I've made up for it since. I mean to make my wife feel desired, even as I plan to feel desired too. (By outsourcing.) If I were to start finding my mistress to be a superior lover, would my efforts to make my wife feel properly cherished waver? It's definitely a concern, even if it's not what you meant. The evolution of your bringing your A-game home to the wife sounds like it might be more appreciated by my own wife, assuming the outsourcing doesn't make my wife pull a 180 and decide to dip her shoulder in liquid nitrogen. In terms of the Mrs. not caring to change to please me (the tardiness example), my wife doesn't change to please me either. She hears criticism and draws into herself and engages in self-loathing. So I do what I can to remember to keep my lips zipped about negativity. With her clinical depression, even neutral comments are taken negatively. The sabotage I spoke of referred to my efforts to make my wife feel appreciated. I may be tempted to slack off if my paramour dotes on me. The temptation will be to reciprocate with similar strength and that could tax my resources at the expense of my wife. Allocation of time is a recurrent trouble spot in polyamory according to every podcast I've heard and article I've read. Quite the tightrope to walk. I can easily see how it would be immensely challenging due to not just the two (or more?) ladies I'm seeing, but my own carelessness to be fair and use deft communication to be aware of the pages everyone is on.
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 6, 2020 0:53:53 GMT -5
The sabotage I spoke of referred to my efforts to make my wife feel appreciated. I may be tempted to slack off if my paramour dotes on me. I think in my example, my paramour and I, as well as Mrs. Apocrypha's paramour and her, made efforts not to to "dote" or trod on what we agreed felt like husband territory. For example, I had an unspoken rule that I would not send or give flowers, or otherwise offer a token in her household that would make my presence linger past my walking out the threshold. I was careful in the restaurants I chose, so I did not make her husband feel financially eclipsed by my comparative wealth. We could have a nice time at dinner, but the maximum was going to be The Keg. At Christmas and special days - small things like chocolates or wine, or fudge. It wasn't really anything. It was simply treating each other with kindness and speaking to each other as interesting people who were worth our attention. Prior to relationship 2.0, in the years running up through the sexless marriage until eventually her affair, and then a bungled reconciliation and my call for a divorce (followed by the open part, relationship 2.0), prior to all that - I alternately ran the strategy of isolating myself from friends and social events, for fear of having an affair myself. I really did a good job of that - neglecting my social needs and friends, and becoming a less interesting person overall, who also didn't bother her for sex. It was after that, that she had the affair.
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Post by h on Feb 6, 2020 10:09:33 GMT -5
I alternately ran the strategy of isolating myself from friends and social events, for fear of having an affair myself. I really did a good job of that - neglecting my social needs and friends, and becoming a less interesting person overall, who also didn't bother her for sex. It was after that, that she had the affair. Shit! I wonder why that didn’t work for me. This divorce would have been so much easier! :-) That would be a dream come true for me. I think if my W had an affair, I would thank her. Having a socially acceptable reason for filing for divorce would set me up much better. (It would make no difference in any divorce proceedings and would have no effect on the outcome in court.) I would have more solid support from my family who otherwise would be either distant or a thorn in my side. They have some messed up religious inspired morals that will be difficult to deal with when I do split, but if I fit their definition of a victim then I would have their financial support also to get back on my feet meaning I could file immediately. My wife cheating would be an absolute win for me.
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