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Post by saarinista on Dec 5, 2019 13:55:56 GMT -5
Not trying to be unsympathetic to people who live with it. But I grew up around parents who verbally abused each other a lot and one time I saw them engage in physical abuse.
Then and there I decided that I would never tolerate physical abuse. It's just too ridiculous. Grown-ups don't behave that way.
I realize there are reasons people stay in abusive situations but I cannot support them. I'm not judging; I'm just saying I can't support that. I don't care how nice your house is or how big your debt is or how many kids you have.
And there's one more reason for not having very many kids. You always have to be ready to take your kids away from an abusive situation. And how many can anybody handle?
Edited to add, I should not have used the word SHOCKED when describing my feelings about how many people are putting up with abuse. APPALLED and DISMAYED would be better words. I totally get it WHY people stay. I've seen it. I'm not ignorant. I'm FRUSTRATED that humans are so fucking -HUMAN, and that our culture glorifies violence.
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Post by lessingham on Dec 7, 2019 11:17:57 GMT -5
I think one of the difficulties with female violence is gauging it. My wife is smaller and lighter than me so would really have to haul one in to hurt me. For her, a casual tap from me would make her stagger back and probably bruise. I'm not testing that. So, when she hits me is it a playful tap, a glancing blow or a malicious strike? Intent and location are more important, plus the words issued. Thus it is "easier" for a man to justify the violence as playful or she didn't mean it... Until the escalation. Plus, since 99% of books and literature online deal with violence to women, it's hard to admit you the man are a victim.
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Post by saarinista on Dec 7, 2019 13:22:40 GMT -5
lessingham Taking any physical assaults out of the equation.. Hasn't your marriage still been pretty crappy? As I recall, there's been quite a bit of verbal and emotional abuse in there, too. Abuse is abuse. You dont have to have lacerations, broken bones or get murdered to be abused. I'm guessing most of us married expecting to be happy and loved. When it gets to assessing levels of ABUSE... I think we are WAY past needing to do something to care for ourselves.
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Post by baza on Dec 7, 2019 17:22:53 GMT -5
I think one of the difficulties with female violence is gauging it. My wife is smaller and lighter than me so would really have to haul one in to hurt me. For her, a casual tap from me would make her stagger back and probably bruise. I'm not testing that. So, when she hits me is it a playful tap, a glancing blow or a malicious strike? Intent and location are more important, plus the words issued. Thus it is "easier" for a man to justify the violence as playful or she didn't mean it... Until the escalation. Plus, since 99% of books and literature online deal with violence to women, it's hard to admit you the man are a victim. If cases of abuse are not reported to the authorities, then obviously the authorities cannot take any action against the perpetrator of said abuse. They don't know about it if it ain't reported. Of course that's how abuse becomes 'normal'. Obviously the perpetrator is not going to report it. And in many cases, the victim is not going to report it either - for a variety of reasons. So on it goes. I suspect that in my jurisdiction, if all instances of abuse were reported to the Cops, that our Police would be inundated with reports to investigate and there'd likely be no time or resources available to do any other police work. But actually, I'd like to see ALL abuse reported. It would at least hi-light the level of abuse present in our society - and I suspect that that level would be staggeringly large and widespread. You were abused Brother lessingham . You report it, or you don't. Your choice. I am pretty sure that Sister elkclan2 is pretty knowledgeable in this field through her work and has written on this subject in the past, and hopefully she'll weigh in on this thread.
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Post by Handy on Dec 7, 2019 23:44:01 GMT -5
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Post by elynne on Dec 9, 2019 7:05:27 GMT -5
I think one of the difficulties with female violence is gauging it. My wife is smaller and lighter than me so would really have to haul one in to hurt me. For her, a casual tap from me would make her stagger back and probably bruise. I'm not testing that. So, when she hits me is it a playful tap, a glancing blow or a malicious strike? Intent and location are more important, plus the words issued. Thus it is "easier" for a man to justify the violence as playful or she didn't mean it... Until the escalation. Plus, since 99% of books and literature online deal with violence to women, it's hard to admit you the man are a victim. If cases of abuse are not reported to the authorities, then obviously the authorities cannot take any action against the perpetrator of said abuse. They don't know about it if it ain't reported. Of course that's how abuse becomes 'normal'. Obviously the perpetrator is not going to report it. And in many cases, the victim is not going to report it either - for a variety of reasons. So on it goes. I suspect that in my jurisdiction, if all instances of abuse were reported to the Cops, that our Police would be inundated with reports to investigate and there'd likely be no time or resources available to do any other police work. But actually, I'd like to see ALL abuse reported. It would at least hi-light the level of abuse present in our society - and I suspect that that level would be staggeringly large and widespread. You were abused Brother lessingham . You report it, or you don't. Your choice. I am pretty sure that Sister elkclan2 is pretty knowledgeable in this field through her work and has written on this subject in the past, and hopefully she'll weigh in on this thread. Abuse is kind of like art. You know it when you see it. You know the intent of that tap or kick or push that landed too hard. You know when the joke that’s not funny is intended to hurt. My abuser was very clever. His abuse was almost always without witnesses. The only witnesses were our children. He was very clever that there was always a level of plausible deniability. Some of the abuse would sound idiotic if I explained it to someone. But in the bigger context it was undeniably cruel and intended to keep me feeling small and questioning my m judgment, my senses, my memory and my self worth. One evening I left my bicycle key in the lock. The next morning I searched with increasing panic for the key. He watched. Checked the key cabinet, coat pockets, pants pockets, laundry basket. Cleaned up everything in the kitchen looking... checked the bike itself looking for the key in the lock. After exhausting all possibilities for where the key might be, I started trying all the spare bicycle keys in my lock to see if I could find the reserve key. He walked up and handed me my bicycle key. It was in his pocket all along as he watched me search. He wanted to punish me for leaving the key in the lock. Trying explaining that to someone who hasn’t lived for years in an abusive relationship- and they won’t get it. They won’t understand that a misplaced wallet isn’t a minor frustration but a psychological game. Did I lose it or did he hide it? I’ve had him hide my iPad (for work) in a seldom used nighstand drawer. It took me two hours to find it. Defining abuse isn’t simple. Certain obvious actions are unquestionably abusive. But so much of abuse is personal. The abuser knows exactly where your vulnerabilities lie. They know know because they’ve been watching closely and collecting this information to be able to use it against you. I had a narcissistic and possibly borderline mother. She would hit and break things on my older sister and me. My older sister is mentally disabled and smaller than me since I was three. I would do my best to deflect attention from my sister and take her beating from as early as I can remember. I would do everything I could to hide anything she had done wrong and protect her from my mother’s rage. If a spouse says “You’re just like your mother” instinctively most people know that’s a below the belt comment. With my history, “You’re just like your mother” was just about the cruelest thing he could say. You know by the clenched feeling in the pit of your stomach, the tightness in your throat and chest, the panicked helpless feeling if your partner’s words or actions are abusive. You know it by the expression on their face; cold, intentional, watching for your reaction to see if the ammunition hit the target. You don’t have to justify that it’s abusive to anyone. You know. That’s enough. You don’t need to convince anyone that it’s cruel to make it real. The biggest fallacy I had to get past - believing that if I could just get through to my ex just how much he hurt me that he would stop. He knew all along. That was his intention. You can choose to put up with abuse or not. You can decide to stay or to leave. You have so much more power than you realize yet. It is mind blowing how quickly an abuser starts to back down when you call them out. They rely on you believing that you’re small and powerless. I believe they abuse because they actually feel small and powerless. I know how hard it is to leave when you’ve been beaten down for years, have forgotten your worth, can’t see your value when you look in the mirror. I also know how much better life is when you are surrounded by people in your life who are loving and kind. You’re going to make the choices that are right for you, in the timeframe that is right for you. But from my perspective, having escaped my abusive relationship, life is pretty damn good out here. There is so much to enjoy and be grateful for.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 9, 2019 15:36:49 GMT -5
Elynne said: “ One evening I left my bicycle key in the lock. The next morning I searched with increasing panic for the key. He watched. Checked the key cabinet, coat pockets, pants pockets, laundry basket. Cleaned up everything in the kitchen looking... checked the bike itself looking for the key in the lock. After exhausting all possibilities for where the key might be, I started trying all the spare bicycle keys in my lock to see if I could find the reserve key. He walked up and handed me my bicycle key. It was in his pocket all along as he watched me search. He wanted to punish me for leaving the key in the lock.
Trying explaining that to someone who hasn’t lived for years in an abusive relationship- and they won’t get it. They won’t understand that a misplaced wallet isn’t a minor frustration but a psychological game. Did I lose it or did he hide it? “
I never was in a relationship like that but what you described was very clearly cruel, manipulative, passive aggressive, sadistic and reason to end a relationship.
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Post by elynne on Dec 9, 2019 17:10:22 GMT -5
Elynne said: “ One evening I left my bicycle key in the lock. The next morning I searched with increasing panic for the key. He watched. Checked the key cabinet, coat pockets, pants pockets, laundry basket. Cleaned up everything in the kitchen looking... checked the bike itself looking for the key in the lock. After exhausting all possibilities for where the key might be, I started trying all the spare bicycle keys in my lock to see if I could find the reserve key. He walked up and handed me my bicycle key. It was in his pocket all along as he watched me search. He wanted to punish me for leaving the key in the lock. Trying explaining that to someone who hasn’t lived for years in an abusive relationship- and they won’t get it. They won’t understand that a misplaced wallet isn’t a minor frustration but a psychological game. Did I lose it or did he hide it? “ I never was in a relationship like that but what you described was very clearly cruel, manipulative, passive aggressive, sadistic and reason to end a relationship. One of many reasons to end the relationship. The larger pattern was that he treated me without respect or kindness. I’m so much happier and healthier now and my children are too. I was really concerned about how the divorce would affect them. And to my surprise and relief - 6 months after moving out and the divorce being final, both girls (10 and 12 years old) are doing well in school, are happy with their friendships, enjoy their sports. Morning arguments are a thing of the past. We really talk to each other. My relationship with each of my daughters has improved since the divorce. We’re more honest with each other. We laugh more. My oldest (who I really struggled to connect with in the past) gives me hugs and kisses. Tells me how much she loves me. Thanks me for our serious talks. I’m almost beginning to forget how terrified I was to leave. Intellectually I remember how scared I was. I remember shaking and sweating as I made copies of our joint financial information to take to my lawyer. But I can’t call up the fear anymore. I just feel relief. I feel light.
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Post by tamara68 on Dec 9, 2019 17:41:40 GMT -5
lessingham I recommend reading the book 'Emotional Blackmail' by Susan Forward. (see also: iliasm.org/thread/787/emotional-blackmail ) Also look at this website: outofthefog.website/traitsHere you find types of behavior that are displayed by people with personality disorders or people who abuse others in emotional or other ways. It also tells you how to respond. With all of these abusive behaviors, one of the things that is advised is to leave the situation. This is for everybody's safety and to show that you are not okay with what the other one is doing.
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Post by flashjohn on Dec 9, 2019 18:55:51 GMT -5
I think one of the difficulties with female violence is gauging it. My wife is smaller and lighter than me so would really have to haul one in to hurt me. For her, a casual tap from me would make her stagger back and probably bruise. I'm not testing that. So, when she hits me is it a playful tap, a glancing blow or a malicious strike? Intent and location are more important, plus the words issued. Thus it is "easier" for a man to justify the violence as playful or she didn't mean it... Until the escalation. Plus, since 99% of books and literature online deal with violence to women, it's hard to admit you the man are a victim. Yes, it is very hard to admit it. Even when my ExRefuser hit me, it really hurt me more emotionally than physically. But if I had hit her in the same way, it would have really hurt her.
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Post by lessingham on Dec 11, 2019 4:16:23 GMT -5
Thank you, Tamara, I will look for the book.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Dec 11, 2019 8:58:20 GMT -5
Not sure if this story applies but going to throw it out there as food for thought. We all raise our boys not to hit girls.. But we don't have that conversation with girls. I told my son never hit or restrain a girl. I told my daughter don't ever let a male touch you in anger. Fast forward my son has a gf that moved in with us when we moved. Her parents were deceased since she was 14. My son was 18 she was 20. My ex has a temper he never hit me but punched walls etc. His father was there same way. One day we were standing in line at a store and she tells me my son shoved her onto the bed in anger. Of course I was upset. I came home and had a talk with my son. Turns out she was snooping in his phone he was mad and trying to leave the situation and she blocked the door. She's not a tiny girl so he spun her around and shoved her to the bed. So she would lose her grip on him and he could leave. So then I had a talk with her about playing with fire. You don't hold a angry person hostage and hope not to get hit or shoved that could easily spin out of control So eventually they broke up.I let her stay in a different room since it was that or moving back to get aunt's that I felt didn't have her best interest at heart. I caught her coming out of his room while he was sleeping she wanted to lay with him before work. I told her she can't just come in his room uninvited. Then one day when I was at work I got a call. My son was locked in his room she was trying to pry the door open with a butter knife . She had all the house phones off the hook the cell reception there was bad. He wasn't scared of her he was trying to avoid a physical conflict She let his dog out the front door so he would have to come out to give Chase. Her friend called the cops because she called because they were arguing and then she couldn't get back through on the phone. I told her on speaker phone to get her stuff and get out. He came out to chase the dog the cops came they ended up watching her pack her stuff and leave. Not for her safety but because my son had scratches and a busted lip she had no marks. And she was screaming and not listening to the police she almost landed in jail. It's not ok.. It's not ok for women to hit men even if it's doesn't hurt. All it takes is them to restrain them or lose their temper and hit back and they would be sitting in jail.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 11, 2019 10:25:46 GMT -5
Angeleyes: “ So eventually they broke up.I let her stay in a different room since it was that or moving back to get aunt's that I felt didn't have her best interest at heart.”
She didn’t have your son’s best interest at heart and that was reason not to let her stay in your home. No need to make where she lived your concern. Allowing her to remain in your home after they broke up was making things difficult for your son, something that likely would have been true even if she had been more mentally balanced. Most couples who split up need distance.
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Post by flashjohn on Dec 11, 2019 14:14:43 GMT -5
Not sure if this story applies but going to throw it out there as food for thought. We all raise our boys not to hit girls.. But we don't have that conversation with girls. I told my son never hit or restrain a girl. I told my daughter don't ever let a male touch you in anger. Fast forward my son has a gf that moved in with us when we moved. Her parents were deceased since she was 14. My son was 18 she was 20. My ex has a temper he never hit me but punched walls etc. His father was there same way. One day we were standing in line at a store and she tells me my son shoved her onto the bed in anger. Of course I was upset. I came home and had a talk with my son. Turns out she was snooping in his phone he was mad and trying to leave the situation and she blocked the door. She's not a tiny girl so he spun her around and shoved her to the bed. So she would lose her grip on him and he could leave. So then I had a talk with her about playing with fire. You don't hold a angry person hostage and hope not to get hit or shoved that could easily spin out of control So eventually they broke up.I let her stay in a different room since it was that or moving back to get aunt's that I felt didn't have her best interest at heart. I caught her coming out of his room while he was sleeping she wanted to lay with him before work. I told her she can't just come in his room uninvited. Then one day when I was at work I got a call. My son was locked in his room she was trying to pry the door open with a butter knife . She had all the house phones off the hook the cell reception there was bad. He wasn't scared of her he was trying to avoid a physical conflict She let his dog out the front door so he would have to come out to give Chase. Her friend called the cops because she called because they were arguing and then she couldn't get back through on the phone. I told her on speaker phone to get her stuff and get out. He came out to chase the dog the cops came they ended up watching her pack her stuff and leave. Not for her safety but because my son had scratches and a busted lip she had no marks. And she was screaming and not listening to the police she almost landed in jail. It's not ok.. It's not ok for women to hit men even if it's doesn't hurt. All it takes is them to restrain them or lose their temper and hit back and they would be sitting in jail.
I am so glad you got her out of your house. Yes, there are women who honestly believe that they have every right to hit a man whenever they want with no consequences. I taught my daughters how to fight, and they are able to defend themselves, but I also told them not to start a physical confrontation.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Dec 11, 2019 15:03:47 GMT -5
Angeleyes: “ So eventually they broke up.I let her stay in a different room since it was that or moving back to get aunt's that I felt didn't have her best interest at heart.” She didn’t have your son’s best interest at heart and that was reason not to let her stay in your home. No need to make where she lived your concern. Allowing her to remain in your home after they broke up was making things difficult for your son, something that likely would have been true even if she had been more mentally balanced. Most couples who split up need distance. Yes with the first altercation I put her out. It was putting him in a difficult situation morally and legally. Having a soft heart doesn't always work out for the best.
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