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Post by northstarmom on Dec 2, 2019 12:54:19 GMT -5
Apocrypha said: “ If you are a man, and you exist in a domestic conflict situation that is physical, as a habit - you are in a VERY high risk situation. The risk isn't so much that you will be injured by your partner, but rather, that you will eventually defend yourself or respond in kind, and YOU will end up in jail, with very different life prospects. Don't allow that scenario to unfold.”
I agree with everything apocrypha said in his whole post.
Adding for everything here: Any physical abuse including what some here are calling “light” physical abuse is a huge red flag, enough for you to exit the relationship no matter how much the person apologizes, etc. For women especially what is at risk is your life and possible your children’s lives and physical well being (children also are at risk if their fathers physically abuse their mates).
Because it’s most dangerous when one tries to leave an abuser, it’s wise to move with the advise of a domestic abuse hotline or other informed service.
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endthegame
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by endthegame on Dec 2, 2019 15:26:21 GMT -5
Again, I strongly advise you to read extensively on shrink4men.comIt's strapline is: "Living with abuse is a choice. Are you ready to start thinking, choosing and living differently?" Knowledge is power my friend. Read it, consume it and reflect from an informed position. Standing still will be your ultimate undoing. Move forward. Good luck
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 2, 2019 16:45:15 GMT -5
Semi apology from her last night, apparently the stress of Christmas was getting to her! Since she has done bugger all so far and has so far admitted she does not feel up to doing anything due to her recovery from surgery, I wonder where the stress comes from. It sounds like she is trying to say that she is hitting you because it is Christmas. An explanation, rather than an apology, as if hitting your partner because it is Christmas should make perfect sense. Except... You are in the same marriage as her. You also are experiencing Christmas. It doesn't appear to be your reaction to the stress. Nor am I aware of a spike of domestic violence attacks at Christmas, either. She's changing the subject on you. The issue you are trying to resolve is her violence toward you. She has changed the subject to the fact that she experiences stress. We all face stress - you included. Every one of us. One of your stresses is that your partner hits you, won't acknowledge or apologize for it, and dismisses its importance. If you were to even once react to the stress of your partner hitting you the way she reacts to the stress of Christmas, then I'd imagine the cops will be on your door.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 4, 2019 10:17:25 GMT -5
For women especially what is at risk is your life and possible your children’s lives and physical well being (children also are at risk if their mothers physically abuse their mates). Because it’s most dangerous when one tries to leave an abuser, it’s wise to move with the advise of a domestic abuse hotline or other informed service. Though the rates of domestic violence initiation are about the same for men and women, there are more services for abused dogs than there are for men and their children. Most abuse shelters and the whole domestic violence advocacy industry are built off the fallacious and misandric Duluth Model or Domestic Abuse Intervention Project - which is unable to see men as masculinity as anything other than a problem to be solved. Most domestic abuse that gets to a point of exiting the household exists in a context of substance abuse and/or mood disorders, and are chronic patterns rather than one offs. If you call in for police help - as a man - you run a high risk of being arrested yourself if she so much as breaks her fingernail while punching you in your face. If that happens, you can bet it will come up in the child custody case at Family Court in the divorce. If you leave, domestic abuse shelters have no place for you to go - alone or with your kids. If your son is a teen, it's likely he will also be blocked from the shelter. So, men typically tolerate the intolerable longer than they should until it gets to a point - and then react. We talk about seeing a lawyer to find information on how a divorce shakes out a lot on here at ILIASM. People don't often do it - maybe because it seems excessive. After seeing what happened to my friends, I would really stress that this should be doubly important in a conflict in which physical abuse is used as as a reaction to conflict. When my ex's drinking got out of hand and she put her hands on me, as well as engaging in other sordid filth as a big "F you" to me, I got serious about investigating the legal implications, and we sat down and talked about it. We had young kids. We first discussed our childhoods - me with a mother who seemed abusive and out of control, and her with her disordered father. Separation was, at that point - a topic that had been seriously discussed, as well as child custody. We discussed what we agreed was unsatisfying about our relationships with our emotionally unregulated parents. I asked her a hypothetical about what SHE felt the right thing to do in a separation if I lost my temper and hit the kids, or if I hit her in front of the kids, the way she had hit me. Her response to that was unsurprising and I used it as a way to trigger the sense of gravity I intended (and I really did intend it). I said that I was aware that she did not feel her physical aggression toward me in public or private when she drank was a serious issue, but that she had not persuaded me to her point of view. She thought I was "overly reactive" due to my mother. I granted that this might be true, and that I'm ok to disagree with her on this but noted that this insight told her what I likely do with child custody in the event of a separation. I also noted that she had just agreed she would feel it was her moral and parental duty to do the same in my place - to seek full custody. I said that if I felt I had to do that, I would testify factually about the abusive behavior and about the drinking problem. That seemed to focus her attention with the gravity I was expecting. We ended up talking about and implementing a plan to curb the drinking that was successful for two years, until she slipped and kicked me back across a room one day in a total meltdown. Within a couple months of that, we called it quits. It's worth noting for possible general interest that once out of the marriage situation with me, my ex-wife's drinking problem and behaviour seemed to be drastically reduced (to the extent that I could tell - I see her a lot in our close separation). It supports my emerging way of thinking, which is that intimacy-averse spouses are ALSO in an unsatisfying situation, and that the maritally-incompatible behavior is a symptom of their wanting to get out.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 4, 2019 10:49:38 GMT -5
Apacropha: it’s hard for virtually anyone — regardless of gender- to leave an abusive mate. While there are few domestic violence services for men, it’s also hard for women. Abusers destroy their victims’ self esteem. Victims may think they deserve abuse or they may fear losing access to their kids (yes, women fear this especially if their abuser has more education, a respected job or position in the community, or has convinced their victim or others that the victim is mentally ill or otherwise not appropriate for custody.
Even when appropriate shelters or other services exist, victims may not use them. They don’t want to move out of their homes and potentially lose everything. They don’t want to disrupt their children’s’ lives. They don’t want to leave pets behind (most shelters don’t accept pets. Many abusers also threaten pets.)
As for calling police, even for women, this is not easy. Jail or charges may cause their abuser to lose their job, and that impacts the family. The information could be published, shaming the family. The abuser may retaliate. The victim may be blamed or not believed. The victim may even lose their job due to their employers’ fear that the victim’s partner may attempt to harm the victim at their workplace.
I’ve worked with domestic violence victims and I have friends who are survivors. Any level of physical abuse is a huge red flag to end the relationship. Typically such violence escalates over time and it becomes more difficult to leave.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 4, 2019 11:43:30 GMT -5
Apacropha: it’s hard for virtually anyone — regardless of gender- to leave an abusive mate. While there are few domestic violence services for men, it’s also hard for women [...] Read very carefully what I've written and what I haven't. There is no place in any of it where I have said that it is easy for anyone in this situation. That's because I don't think it is. In fact, it's difficult to leave a marriage even without the added complexity of abuse, as anyone vaguely familiar with this forum already knows. The advice I was responding to was that given to men to use domestic abuse services that are available. My point, was that men who try to use the services we commonly associate with domestic abuse - will encounter unique problems because such services are not available to men, and in many cases pathologize men irrespective of the man's role as victim. Links: Researcher: What Happens When Abused Men Call Domestic Violence Hotlines And Shelters? Nationwide, only the Dallas shelter and one in Batesville, Ark., have temporary housing exclusively for men.Which means that general advice and resources offered to women - such as "call the police", or "take you and your kids to a shelter" IS unlikely to be helpful or practical in that situation, and may make it much worse (like landing HIM in jail for defending himself, and losing his kids to an abuser) and men will likely need to approach it differently. I'm not sure how you read from that that I have indicated domestic violence is easy for female victims of it. It's such a profoundly ungenerous view, that I am baffled as to its intent. Under the misandrist and ineffective Duluth model for domestic violence intervention, men's help for domestic abuse constitutes support on how not to be a violent offender - and that's about it. Many such services are ideologically committed to validating a narrative that supports women as victims and men as perpetrators, ignoring stacks of evidence that indicates this is not a valid capture of most violence dynamics. Men seeking help from such services can end up doubly victimized. Which is why my advice to men (and it's not bad for women either) is to take a long view and to treat the violence seriously outside of the situation in which it occurs, and to take care of themselves - because they aren't going to find help in services that are generally available to women. Once again - no part of that says - "Women victims of domestic violence have it easy" so there's no need to establish a countercase to that effect.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 4, 2019 12:25:24 GMT -5
Apocrypha, I’m not disagreeing with you. Leaving an abuser is hard for anyone regardless of gender. Even where resources are available, it’s still hard. I think both of us agree on these points. We also agree that the victims can’t change their abusers. Victims’ only productive option is to leave.
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Post by flashjohn on Dec 4, 2019 17:34:06 GMT -5
My wife kicked me the other day. We were in a store and she was angry at me for not listening. It was a light tap, not a full on kick. I told her never to do it again. Years ago she used to lightly kick and punch me, sometimes in company. Friends would comment. As a child I was physically abused by my mother and had huge issues over female violence for years, I was terrified of angry women. Should I have reacted less strongly or more strongly to the recent kicking? I was internally wildly over reacting but maintained my composure. I have never even mildly tapped her. First of all, DO NOT hit her back. She is very likely to call the police & you will be arrested. The police will believe her, and you will be arrested. Then you will be labeled as the abuser.
The last time my ExRefuser hit me was in 2004. I had become a prosecutor a few months before. She backed me into a corner & threw two punches at my face. After the first one, my mouth was slightly open & when she threw her second punch, her knuckles were scraped when she hit my teeth. She then looked at her knuckles, & said, "You bit me"! Then she left the room. A few weeks later, I told her that she knew that I would never hit her back, but if she ever did that again, I was going to have her arrested. Over the next 10 years, when she would double up her fists in anger, I would remind her that if she started throwing punches, she was going to jail, and she would leave the room.
Frankly, it was a bluff. Most police and prosecutors will not believe a man can be abused by a woman. I have spoken to many coworkers, and that is just how things are. Police are the same. Frankly, there is no reason for a female abuser to ever stop. Unless she is videotaped, no one will believe she hit her husband/boyfriend, and many times, people will think that even if she did, the man deserved it anyway. In a DA's office where I used to work, if a woman says she was hit, pushed, kicked or choked by a man, she was ALWAYS believed. Even if she later says that she was just mad and made it up, she was told that if she changed her story, she would be prosecuted for false report.
I should have divorced her the first time she hit me about 6 months into our joke of a marriage. I am sure you have your reasons for staying with her, and I am sure they seem very valid right now. I know because I had a lot of reasons myself. But now I have been away from my ExRefuserAbuser for 3.5 years, and I am a bit frustrated at myself for staying with her for so long. I did not deserve her abuse, and I should not have accepted it.
No one deserves to be hit, and a person who will hit you does not deserve you. A mature relationship does not include anyone hitting anyone else.
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Post by flashjohn on Dec 4, 2019 17:36:27 GMT -5
Semi apology from her last night, apparently the stress of Christmas was getting to her! Since she has done bugger all so far and has so far admitted she does not feel up to doing anything due to her recovery from surgery, I wonder where the stress comes from. It doesn't matter. She should not be hitting/kicking anyone ever. Unless of course she wants to train in martial arts, like boxing or karate, then she can hit as much as she wants and get hit right back.
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Post by baza on Dec 4, 2019 19:31:10 GMT -5
There are all sorts of minorities who don't get a fair crack at the (usually overstretched) resources available to abused people.
The resources for the *typical* abused wife are nothing great in my jurisdiction. Let alone if you are a kid subject to parental abuse. Or a senior who is being abused by their kids. Or invalid persons in care being abused by their suppossed carers. Or blokes who's wife tees off on them. Etc .... etc ....
We could debate "which cases of abuse are the worst and thus deserving of the (scant) resources available" if we want.
Suffice to say, abuse is (in my jurisdiction) a blight on society, and it will take a generational shift in societal attitudes to sort it out. Starting with the current generation of kids in the education system and community leaders like Rosemary Batty and Phil Cleary and numerous others leading the way. It will be no short term thing to get it right.
There are signs (in my jurisdiction) that the legislators and enforcement agencies are really trying to come to grips with this issue but the resources needed are currently stretched to the limit, and a lot of people working in this field get burned out pretty quick.
End of rant.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 4, 2019 19:40:33 GMT -5
Semi apology from her last night, apparently the stress of Christmas was getting to her! Since she has done bugger all so far and has so far admitted she does not feel up to doing anything due to her recovery from surgery, I wonder where the stress comes from. It sounds like she is trying to say that she is hitting you because it is Christmas. An explanation, rather than an apology, as if hitting your partner because it is Christmas should make perfect sense. Except... You are in the same marriage as her. You also are experiencing Christmas. It doesn't appear to be your reaction to the stress. Nor am I aware of a spike of domestic violence attacks at Christmas, either. She's changing the subject on you. The issue you are trying to resolve is her violence toward you. She has changed the subject to the fact that she experiences stress. We all face stress - you included. Every one of us. One of your stresses is that your partner hits you, won't acknowledge or apologize for it, and dismisses its importance. If you were to even once react to the stress of your partner hitting you the way she reacts to the stress of Christmas, then I'd imagine the cops will be on your door. More DARVO. Denying it, Avoiding it, Reversing it. Playing the Victim and making you the Defender.
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Post by saarinista on Dec 5, 2019 1:59:36 GMT -5
I'm shocked to hear that people are tolerating physical abuse
There is no excuse for it in any relationship. Zero.
Add alcohol or drugs to the picture and we see why so many domestic violence police calls turn deadly.
Mature adults do not hit in order to make a point or get their way.
If there's hitting in your marriage, and you stay, don't be surprised if you or your soul at least ends up dead.
For those in the US- make sure not to argue with guns around.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 5, 2019 9:59:28 GMT -5
I'm shocked to hear that people are tolerating physical abuse It's because, while clearly wrong - it's more complicated than that - and I don't think much of the advocacy acknowledges this. To make the response a priority in the abuser's mind, the non-violent response must seem to be a an overreaction, and in the case of leaving, it's a reaction that also harms the abused. So, say that I were to get in a verbal confrontation with my wife about her affair. I say something unhelpful and she smacks me across the face. If I kick her out - will she go? If she doesn't, will I call police? If I talk to police, am I really going to give her a criminal record and testify in court against her for slapping me? Suppose we work it out - but she has a record and now we can't travel. If I leave her without a legal framework - will I be more disadvantaged? (a good reason to see a lawyer well before the decision is reached to leave) If I leave, where will I go. And how much will my hotel costs amount to? Is a hotel a long term solution? It seems like a lot, for what tends to start small or as what appears to be a one-off event. It often starts as a really complicated math, and there are a lot of good reasons to temper a response.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 11:11:35 GMT -5
Semi apology from her last night, apparently the stress of Christmas was getting to her! Since she has done bugger all so far and has so far admitted she does not feel up to doing anything due to her recovery from surgery, I wonder where the stress comes from. Google "abuse and apology" and you'll have all the answers you need. You have taken some care to characterize the "tap" but only you know if there was malice or it was a playful gesture. The fact that you're posting it here means you believe it to be the latter as does your spouse with the semi-apology. Seek help.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 5, 2019 11:24:43 GMT -5
Saarinista said: “ I'm shocked to hear that people are tolerating physical abuse.”
Having worked with abusers and their victims and having grown up in a home in which my dad pushed my mom down the stairs and also threatened to kill us all, I’m not shocked.
Reasons people stay with abusers:
The abuser has destroyed their confidence and self esteem so the victim thinks they themselves are the problem or deserve their abuse.
The victim was a childhood abuser victim or grew up seeing a parent abused. They think it’s normal.
The perpetrator is we regarded or a law official and the victim fears others won’t believe them.
The perpetrator has isolated the victim and controls their money so the victim has no resources.
The perpetrator has threatened the victim’s loved ones including pets so the victim stays to ensure their safety because the perpetrator is likely to get some custody of the victim leaves.
The victim thinks the perp’s behavior was out of character as otherwise the perp is very kind.
The perp tearfully apologized and promised not to do it again
The victim thinks that they can avoid further abuse by not doing the behavior that seemed to trigger the abuse
The abuse seemed minor — hair pulling, a non injurious kick, and the victim thinks they would be overreacting by ending the relationship
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