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Post by csl on Nov 20, 2019 22:08:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I know, I get annoying with my pushback on this truism, but I thought I'd share an email from a couple of years ago, that I just came across as I was working on a project for my blog. In May, 2017, one of my readers sent me a long email that contained these two paragraphs: In going through my archived emails, I found that he updated me in Oct., '17, with this: Several takeaways for me: 1 - Go back and save my emails regularly. 2 - Yes, he is one of the "lucky" ones (given my religious focus, I prefer blessed.) 3 - I think that an observation by baza from a couple of years ago is in play. He speculated that those with spiritual values may be more motivated to seeking solutions in order to save their marriages. Given ILIASM's own shynjdude and their success, I think that is a valid premise.
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Post by baza on Nov 20, 2019 23:47:59 GMT -5
"Change" is very difficult for people. There are plenty of stories in here where refused spouses find it very difficult to alter their behaviour in the face of spousal refusal. They keep why chasing. And there's just as many stories where refuser spouses find it very hard to alter their behaviour. They keep refusing.
*You* are no hope of changing your spouse. That's their gig. *You* are some chance of changing yourself. As ever, this starts with *you*.
Re - religious beliefs Stands to reason (to me) that if you and your spouse are of a religious persuasion, then that's a potential avenue available to you that's not there for heathens like me. I doubt it would make that much of a difference to an ILIASM outcome, but I'd concede that it might make some.
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catsloveme
Full Member
Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 204
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Post by catsloveme on Nov 21, 2019 1:02:11 GMT -5
My dad has a saying... “I can, or I don’t want to.” That, to me, sums up any SM situation with regard to whether a refuser can change. They can or they don’t want to.
Same goes for the refused.
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Post by jim44444 on Nov 21, 2019 8:22:30 GMT -5
[ csl] would you be willing to email this guy now to ask how things are today? There have been many examples of turnarounds that fizzled after several months. I hope they are still fully enjoying their relationship. You also mentioned shynjdude as a model for having fixed his marriage. Unfortunately it looks as if he deleted all of his postings. However my recollection of his 'success' does not equate to fixed. I remember his wife wanting to have more intimacy and sex in exchange for him cutting the other woman out of his life, giving his wife all of his passwords, deleting his social media accounts, and other control issues. To me his success involves his total subjection to her and her demands. He has sacrificed his humanity on the altar 'matrimony' and she has begrudgingly agreed to supply some pussy for now.
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Post by carl on Nov 21, 2019 12:09:56 GMT -5
Just my opinion. I think different people have different abilities when it comes to sex. I just think that some people get aroused easily and can get enormous pleasure from sex in many ways. They may or may not be in touch with their emotions and other peoples too. That’s at one end of the scale sexually. Then there are those who need a bit of help and encouragement and in the right circumstances can get a lot out of sex. But they require some effort which reduces ones own pleasure somewhat. Then there are those who have little ability or desire and struggle to enjoy sex and probably confounded by their own self consciousness become completely non-sexual. Intimacy may not run a parallel but if it leads to sex then would be avoided too. I don’t think there is anyway of changing that core level of desire. I think it’s how someone is. I believe that someone who enjoys sex could enjoy sex with many different people and could overcome many barriers and someone who can’t would struggle ultimately whatever the circumstances. You are what you are. Having said that I don’t think an intrinsic lack of desire or ability is such a massive problem. I don’t think it needs fixing or needs to be overcome. It’s nobody’s fault. But it needs honesty and it needs discussing if you are in a marriage because it matters. It can make quite a significant difference to a man at least I can say. It’s not the end of the world, but denying the situation is denying the truth and living a lie.
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Post by ScottDinTN on Nov 21, 2019 12:10:26 GMT -5
I'm sure there are many sexless marriages where the dynamic between the couple is what is causing a lack of desire. Maybe one only focuses on penetration (no romance or foreplay) so the other never really enjoys sex and avoids it. Maybe hygiene is the issue that repluses the other. Some are just married to people who are just down right jerks. I think these kind of marriage can be saved. Counseling could make a world of difference here.
Some believe all relationships are like this. That if changes are made all relationships can be healed. I think that there are some people who just don't like sex or just have no arousal to desire it. These people will try hard at times to make things work but will eventually return to their natural state of disinterest no mater what changes take place.
Its hard to know which of those situations you are in at first. Its why I tried everything to turn our marriage around in case I was part of the problem. It came down to I was the only one that wanted things to change. You can't make someone change.
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Post by deadzone75 on Nov 21, 2019 13:41:52 GMT -5
Sounds like an amateur attempt to sell one of those "miracle books". I know my own SM has made me cynical, but I don't believe you can go from a true SM to having sex twice a day because you picked up a book.
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catsloveme
Full Member
Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 204
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Post by catsloveme on Nov 21, 2019 13:48:14 GMT -5
interesting and valid points ScottDinTN and carl. I do think change is harder for some people and in certain situations. Change can also come in the form of compromise. Whether it’s change or compromise, though, whoever is involved has to want to put in the effort.
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 21, 2019 14:22:33 GMT -5
Re - religious beliefs Stands to reason (to me) that if you and your spouse are of a religious persuasion, then that's a potential avenue available to you that's not there for heathens like me. I doubt it would make that much of a difference to an ILIASM outcome, but I'd concede that it might make some. Relating to my own conversion from a "refuser" in the early years of my relationship, I often discuss my turning point as my "come to Jesus" moment, with regard to deciding to invest in the relationship. I am not a person who is particularly prone to religious thoughts. I could also say it was "picking a lane", or "seeing" my partner. However I describe it, it was a conscious decision to CHOOSE her and to choose a future with her, and not something specific about deciding to have sex. I wish I could describe the process in more practical terms.
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Post by h on Nov 21, 2019 14:44:09 GMT -5
I'm a big believer in the ability of people to change. Ability is a long way away from probability though. People do what they want to do and avoid doing what they don't want to do. That's just basic human nature. Anyone can change if they want to. If someone doesn't want to change, they won't. That distinction has given me a little peace of mind. I can hope, wish, pray, and directly ask my W to change, but I can't force her to. She has to want to change in order for that to happen. It's not in my hands anymore. I have done what I could and I no longer bear any responsibility for the decisions she has made. Whatever comes next is on her.
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Post by carl on Nov 21, 2019 15:40:17 GMT -5
I'm sure there are many sexless marriages where the dynamic between the couple is what is causing a lack of desire. Maybe one only focuses on penetration (no romance or foreplay) so the other never really enjoys sex and avoids it. Maybe hygiene is the issue that repluses the other. Some are just married to people who are just down right jerks. I think these kind of marriage can be saved. Counseling could make a world of difference here. Some believe all relationships are like this. That if changes are made all relationships can be healed. I think that there are some people who just don't like sex or just have no arousal to desire it. These people will try hard at times to make things work but will eventually return to their natural state of disinterest no mater what changes take place. Its hard to know which of those situations you are in at first. Its why I tried everything to turn our marriage around in case I was part of the problem. It came down to I was the only one that wanted things to change. You can't make someone change. My opinion is that relationship dynamics, hygiene, one partner being a jerk etc are only relevant where the refuser has an already low sex drive and therefore these factors have to be optimised in order for sex to “work “ for them. I can think of jerks in poor relationships eg who are having sex. Maybe it’s just because their partner likes sex in general and isn’t too fussy who with. Agreed some more than others but we’re all a bit of a jerk sometimes and can cause bad relationship dynamics - I am just not buying it. But a low or over sensitive sex drive isn’t a problem in my eyes. Part of someone’s personality. Could be endearing even but somebody not being confident about a low sex drive or trying to boost it by leaning on or shifting it onto somebody else or just acting in an unnatural dishonest and deceitful way about their low sex drive causes problems for them in the long run.
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Post by csl on Nov 21, 2019 16:37:10 GMT -5
[ csl ] would you be willing to email this guy now to ask how things are today? There have been many examples of turnarounds that fizzled after several months. I hope they are still fully enjoying their relationship. You also mentioned shynjdude as a model for having fixed his marriage. Unfortunately it looks as if he deleted all of his postings. However my recollection of his 'success' does not equate to fixed. I remember his wife wanting to have more intimacy and sex in exchange for him cutting the other woman out of his life, giving his wife all of his passwords, deleting his social media accounts, and other control issues. To me his success involves his total subjection to her and her demands. He has sacrificed his humanity on the altar 'matrimony' and she has begrudgingly agreed to supply some pussy for now. I will see if I can email the guy and get an update. As to shynjdude, yes, he did delete his posts. However, some have been in communication with him, and as of 2/3/19, elynne reported in this thread: As to "sacrificing his humanity", that's the first time I've ever heard of outsourcing referred to as someone's humanity. As well, if you will go back over the thread, he had played his ace in the hole, as well, which was divorce, so both had leverage and desire to fix the marriage.
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Post by csl on Nov 21, 2019 16:42:48 GMT -5
Sounds like an amateur attempt to sell one of those "miracle books". I know my own SM has made me cynical, but I don't believe you can go from a true SM to having sex twice a day because you picked up a book. Got nothing for sale on my website, and I don't plan to. In fact, I am in the process of converting my blog articles into free downloadable .pdfs, by subject matter. Not selling nothing, not planning to. Cynicism is your issue to deal with....
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Post by csl on Nov 21, 2019 16:44:59 GMT -5
interesting and valid points ScottDinTN and carl . I do think change is harder for some people and in certain situations. Change can also come in the form of compromise. Whether it’s change or compromise, though, whoever is involved has to want to put in the effort. Absolutely. There are no guarantees. In addition to that one I referred to in my first post, I found another from the daughter of a man who was divorcing his wife, and blamed me for it. No guarantees, but I know of enough success stories to encourage me.
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Post by deadzone75 on Nov 21, 2019 18:16:14 GMT -5
Sounds like an amateur attempt to sell one of those "miracle books". I know my own SM has made me cynical, but I don't believe you can go from a true SM to having sex twice a day because you picked up a book. Got nothing for sale on my website, and I don't plan to. In fact, I am in the process of converting my blog articles into free downloadable .pdfs, by subject matter. Not selling nothing, not planning to. Cynicism is your issue to deal with.... I wasn't accusing you; I was accusing whoever the reader is. Understanding is apparently your issue to deal with.
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