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Post by carl on Jan 8, 2020 15:31:23 GMT -5
1. Houses (compared to other people’s) 2. Holidays (compared to other people’s) 3. The car she drives. As above 4. Her friends who she tends to creep around and I am not sure like her much. 5. And sadly maybe most things to be honest.
Sadly my spouse really only likes what she doesn’t have or own. And her believe that she owns me makes me useful only to her as a means of getting other things. Buts that’s changing slowly but surely and will end.
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Post by isthisit on Jan 8, 2020 17:23:26 GMT -5
1. Houses (compared to other people’s) 2. Holidays (compared to other people’s) 3. The car she drives. As above 4. Her friends who she tends to creep around and I am not sure like her much. 5. And sadly maybe most things to be honest. Sadly my spouse really only likes what she doesn’t have or own. And her believe that she owns me makes me useful only to her as a means of getting other things. Buts that’s changing slowly but surely and will end. This sounds just horrendous. In what way are you instigating change? Saying no to her demands for more ‘stuff’ or expecting her to chip in to the costs?
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Post by carl on Jan 9, 2020 18:12:22 GMT -5
isthisit I have made a lot of progress and change over the last year or so. Without sex existing at all between us I have control over my own life again. I can’t control what my wife desires most in life but I can now encourage her not to manipulate me in order to get it. She has very little interest in me at all now knowing this and doesn’t believe in me as a lover. Maybe she is right but I feel dreadfully empty and sad as a result of that judgement and hope one day my life will be different.
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Post by isthisit on Jan 9, 2020 18:26:15 GMT -5
isthisit I have made a lot of progress and change over the last year or so. Without sex existing at all between us I have control over my own life again. I can’t control what my wife desires most in life but I can now encourage her not to manipulate me in order to get it. She has very little interest in me at all now knowing this and doesn’t believe in me as a lover. Maybe she is right but I feel dreadfully empty and sad as a result of that judgement and hope one day my life will be different. carl I have mixed feelings about the above. Admiration for you for beginning the painful work of emotionally distancing yourself from your wife to gain some autonomy back. I know how painful that was for me. I hope your resilience and self respect will grow as a result. However, I am sorry to hear about the emotional emptiness which has resulted. I recognise much of what you describe. It is lonely, and does cause sadness for what has been lost and could have been- particularly where a family is involved. But you count too, and your quality of life is as important and relevant as anyone else’s in your dynamic. Please value yourself and your happiness. I see no reason why you should not find happiness outside of your marriage in the future. If you hope for a different future in my opinion you are more likely to find it as a singleton than a married man. I know that requires a huge leap of faith though.
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Post by ScottDinTN on Jan 14, 2020 8:09:10 GMT -5
isthisit I have made a lot of progress and change over the last year or so. Without sex existing at all between us I have control over my own life again. I can’t control what my wife desires most in life but I can now encourage her not to manipulate me in order to get it. She has very little interest in me at all now knowing this and doesn’t believe in me as a lover. Maybe she is right but I feel dreadfully empty and sad as a result of that judgement and hope one day my life will be different. I know the feeling of having some power over your life again when you stop seeking sex from a refused. Good you are seeing emotional progress there. So, why are you staying? Kids? Financial stability?
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Post by saarinista on Jan 14, 2020 17:10:08 GMT -5
itme There are different flavours of psychological 'illness' (correct generic term?) and/or disorders. For example Bipolar is very different from narcissism. My error in my previous statement is not being specific, so apologies and that was a sweeping statement that may cause offence. What I often see on this forum, and what my shrink described, are people married to a set of personality disordered individuals. More specifically antisocial ASPD, histrionic, narcissistic, BPD, certain types of OCD like OCPD. These disorders are intrinsically cruel to others, where as bipolar and many others are not. Apologies to anyone I may have offended. That's a great observation which I think is basically true. Personality disorders are very hard to treat. Some are worse than others, too because the patient thinks there is nothing wrong with them! Those who are depressed and anxious I think are more likely to accept that they need treatment, though that can be a struggle as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 17:36:00 GMT -5
I also think this list speaks to one of the primary facts of an SM, whether that SM is acrimonious or relatively harmonious. The fact is that one or both partners aren't being loved in a way that they can understand. Our perception that we are well down the list can either be true or can simply be because they are showing their love in a way we don't recognize. My wife is a very hard worker, on all things. Her family shows little affection but "Daddy works hard because he loves us" was huge. Her efforts aren't lost on me but I don't perceive them as love per se. Whereas, dropping a robe to the floor with a come-hither look would be much more my style. Not going to happen.
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Post by carl on Jan 14, 2020 18:17:27 GMT -5
isthisit I have made a lot of progress and change over the last year or so. Without sex existing at all between us I have control over my own life again. I can’t control what my wife desires most in life but I can now encourage her not to manipulate me in order to get it. She has very little interest in me at all now knowing this and doesn’t believe in me as a lover. Maybe she is right but I feel dreadfully empty and sad as a result of that judgement and hope one day my life will be different. I know the feeling of having some power over your life again when you stop seeking sex from a refused. Good you are seeing emotional progress there. So, why are you staying? Kids? Financial stability? You know, it’s hard to even really pin point why I am staying. It’s almost as if I lack insight into why. My first thought would be my kids. I don’t know if that’s more for me or for them. I definitely feel very close to them and loyal to them. I also feel their mother sadly has a manipulative and cruel side to her not least as she I feel she has betrayed me and as such I would never leave them to live with her alone without me around to help out. Kids are challenging and neither I nor her would be able to manage them alone. We atleast share a goal there. I am naturally over protective of my family and provide everything for them through hard work and enterprise. We are quite fortunate in that way all things considered but then that was the trap - bait and switch I think is the term. Now that we have all we need there is no role for sex. Shocking but true. But now the truth is out I can sort the rest. I’ll deal with it in which ever way solves the problem - and I can solve almost any problem once I know what it is. I no longer do anything with the expectation of solving our sex life and that at least has freed me and cut off her power supply. A bit late but let’s see. I guess deep down I believe you can change people once you can see them for what they are and that the work of changing my wife will be less than the work of starting a new life. It seems such a small step to make from not having sex to having sex. It seems so unbelievably twisted, basic and pathetic to use sex to manipulate a man that I am sure my wife can do better and rise above this. I wish very much that she does but if she doesn’t then surely life has stooped so low that consciously staying or leaving would be equally ridiculous. I also suspect that staying or leaving is largely not determined by conscious choice rather than by the specific dynamics and details of the situation and people involved. So say for example, given my specific situation and given my resources I am staying. In another situation I would leave and maybe claim to have taken that conscious decision myself. I neither envy those who stay or those who leave. The pain, equal in intensity if different in character has the same cure - sex.
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Post by isthisit on Jan 14, 2020 18:30:51 GMT -5
I know the feeling of having some power over your life again when you stop seeking sex from a refused. Good you are seeing emotional progress there. So, why are you staying? Kids? Financial stability? You know, it’s hard to even really pin point why I am staying. It’s almost as if I lack insight into why. My first thought would be my kids. I don’t know if that’s more for me or for them. I definitely feel very close to them and loyal to them. I also feel their mother sadly has a manipulative and cruel side to her not least as she I feel she has betrayed me and as such I would never leave them to live with her alone without me around to help out. Kids are challenging and neither I nor her would be able to manage them alone. We atleast share a goal there. I am naturally over protective of my family and provide everything for them through hard work and enterprise. We are quite fortunate in that way all things considered but then that was the trap - bait and switch I think is the term. Now that we have all we need there is no role for sex. Shocking but true. But now the truth is out I can sort the rest. I’ll deal with it in which ever way solves the problem - and I can solve almost any problem once I know what it is. I no longer do anything with the expectation of solving our sex life and that at least has freed me and cut off her power supply. A bit late but let’s see. I guess deep down I believe you can change people once you can see them for what they are and that the work of changing my wife will be less than the work of starting a new life. It seems such a small step to make from not having sex to having sex. It seems so unbelievably twisted, basic and pathetic to use sex to manipulate a man that I am sure my wife can do better and rise above this. I wish very much that she does but if she doesn’t then surely life has stooped so low that consciously staying or leaving would be equally ridiculous. I also suspect that staying or leaving is largely not determined by conscious choice rather than by the specific dynamics and details of the situation and people involved. So say for example, given my specific situation and given my resources I am staying. In another situation I would leave and maybe claim to have taken that conscious decision myself. I neither envy those who stay or those who leave. The pain, equal in intensity if different in character has the same cure - sex. carl you cannot change your wife. You only ever have control over yourself, your behaviour and your choices.
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Post by carl on Jan 14, 2020 18:57:07 GMT -5
isthisit I don’t think that’s true. Many people have changed and influenced me throughout my life. Including my wife in good ways which will stay with me for ever. If nobody ever changed anybody else how would we ever develop. I’ve not tried to change my wife so far because she lied and made excuses about the truth so I couldn’t see what her issue was. Now I know I’ll have a go and see what happens. No harm in trying.
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Post by isthisit on Jan 14, 2020 19:12:49 GMT -5
isthisit I don’t think that’s true. Many people have changed and influenced me throughout my life. Including my wife in good ways which will stay with me for ever. If nobody ever changed anybody else how would we ever develop. I’ve not tried to change my wife so far because she lied and made excuses about the truth so I couldn’t see what her issue was. Now I know I’ll have a go and see what happens. No harm in trying. Okay. I sincerely wish you well in your endeavour. Perhaps the difference in our views here centre around the concept of ‘influence’. Sure we are all influenced by many factors throughout our lifetime. But the factors do not cause the change-we choose to be influenced or not as sentient beings. It may be possible for one person to manipulate or coerce their spouse into a change of attitude in the bedroom. But change them into wanting and enjoying sexual intimacy? Enthusiastically giving you sexual pleasure? I’m sceptical. We all deserve better than duty sex and I fear that’s at best what you could hope for. But, and it is a big but- it is also valuable to be sure that you have explored every avenue and turned every stone before throwing in the towel in a marriage. It might be your efforts to change your wife prove useful in ways you never intended. I hope I am wrong and you fix your deal. But please be sure to manage your expectations and protect your heart.
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Post by saarinista on Jan 15, 2020 2:07:38 GMT -5
carl, I think people can change, but only if they want to change. If they don't want to change, you cannot make them change. Also nearly impossible is showing them why they SHOULD want to change. That's my experience. It sounds like you're thinking through a lot of difficult, hurtful feelings. It takes time to see things clearly for most. I recommend embracing the idea that your needs are important.
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Post by baza on Jan 15, 2020 2:07:54 GMT -5
isthisit I don’t think that’s true. Many people have changed and influenced me throughout my life. Including my wife in good ways which will stay with me for ever. If nobody ever changed anybody else how would we ever develop. I’ve not tried to change my wife so far because she lied and made excuses about the truth so I couldn’t see what her issue was. Now I know I’ll have a go and see what happens. No harm in trying. I reckon this is yet another of those situations where you're best served to concentrate on sorting your own shit out, and if you are anything like me there'll be plenty to sort out. Trying to sort out someone else's shit for them - particularly where there's no indication that they want such assistance - is a road leading nowhere. But, like you say, "no harm in trying" .... only thing is, the clock continues to run.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jan 16, 2020 14:37:43 GMT -5
For my ex it was:
1. His work 2. Himself 3. His “image”
I think those are still the most important things to him. Even beyond his own child and his new relationship. I just shake my head.
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Post by carl on Jan 16, 2020 18:30:39 GMT -5
baza I don”t feel like I have that much shit to sort out but I know what you mean about focusing on what you can change rather than what you can’t. It’s just having the knowledge to know the difference - isn’t that how the reading went at school. The thing is that I am certain that my wife did a bait and switch but this is a very foreign concept to me and would have been the last thing that I would have expected from anyone. It’s only quite recently that I have realised this and call me naive but now I think about it I can see that this type of thing may be quite common to some degree or another. I think the idea of baiting as it where probably turned my wife on in the beginning and she must have felt very powerful. I am very kind and too generous maybe and would have become more so if the relationship cooled off. But I get her now. If I was very generous and she had a weakness or felt a power from profiting from me then my actions may have fuelled her. I just would never have suspected it you see. That makes it way easier for me to deal with this now though. I have her game. Maybe I can show her my way.
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