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Post by ScottDinTN on Oct 27, 2019 14:24:09 GMT -5
There is another site I have gone to a few times that introduced the idea to me of looking at the benefits we each bring to the marriage relationship. There are things each of us do for the family/relationship. In my family, I balance the checkbook and pay the bills, I take care of the yard, handle household repairs, do the grocery shopping, handle automobile upkeep and repairs, I cook about a third of the time, and wash and dry my own clothes. Naturally, as someone that is married, we expect that one of the benefits of marriage is somewhat regular affection, closeness, and sex. Since we are in situations where those physical benefits are rare or non-existant, have you ever withheld or cut back on the other benefits that you offer to the relationship or household?
For me, the things I cut back on were related to the physical relationship. I no longer touch or kiss my wife and there is no sex. I did that not really as a way of withholding benefits from her (and I think she would see hand holding in public as a benefit she wants). To me, it was just too hard to be close to someone if I knew they were going to reject me in the bedroom. It also seemed hypocritical to appear as an affectionate couple in public if that was not true. It wasn't really done as a way to get back at her.
The website talked about taking it a step further. For example, they don't provide sex, so you don't mow the yard. They don't show you affection, so you stop doing the laundry. That kind of thing. Has anyone ever gone that route? I by no means thought this would motivate her to have sex. But just to keep it from being that they get all the benefits that they want in the relationship, but we aren't receiving all the benefits we want.
Ever experiment with any of that? Things you don't offer now that you used to? Any chores you don't do now that you used to? Any things you cut back on when sex becomes rare?
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Post by Handy on Oct 27, 2019 15:48:01 GMT -5
ScottDinTN I no longer touch or kiss my wife and there is no sex. I did that not really as a way of withholding benefits from her (and I think she would see hand holding in public as a benefit she wants). To me, it was just too hard to be close to someone if I knew they were going to reject me in the bedroom. It also seemed hypocritical to appear as an affectionate couple in public if that was not true. It wasn't really done as a way to get back at her.
Same here and no i did not cut back on any other things because of the lack of sex. I decided I need to do more for myself and act as if I was single and if I was alone, what else would I have to do myself. In a way I was practicing being single and not relying on my W.
But just to keep it from being that they get all the benefits that they want in the relationship, but we aren't receiving all the benefits we want.
I sort of cut back on helping my W in a very few ways. Mainly not jumping in to figure out her problems before she asked. Now I let her come up with her solutions to her problems and only help her if she asks. Even then, she often does not take my advice, and that used to upset me but not any more. It is going to be her circus and her monkeys.
Still there are some medical issues that need to be worked through cooperatively. It is just easier than calling a friend.
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Post by ironhamster on Oct 27, 2019 17:24:43 GMT -5
I made the argument early in our marriage about making her weekly stipend contingent on sex, and she shot that down immediately. Stupid me. I could not see where that was going.
Here is another problem lying underneath of the trade. If you have to trade favors for intimacy, you are not going to get the kind of intimacy that you really want.
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Post by baza on Oct 27, 2019 17:50:29 GMT -5
You are essentially describing "Transactional Sex" here Brother ScottDinTN . And, "IF" both spouses are honest about it, and know what they are doing and why they're doing it, it could work (though I have never seen it work in any sustained sense) A little anecdote - It is spring here and on Sunday I was moving our lawns ending up in a hot dusty sweaty state. Ms enna gets me a cold drink after, sniffs my neck and starts fondling my dick. Predictable outcome ensues and we have a great root. Now, under a transactional sex model, I got a root because I mowed the lawn. Under the model Ms enna and I operate, I/we had a root because we both wanted to. The lawn cutting had jack shit to do with it. In my old ILIASM deal, the sex was transactional - BUT - the currency used to change without discussion or agreement. What got me a root last time (say picking up the kids) didn't work next time. And gradually more and more of the currency was taken off the table. Eventually the table was bereft of any sexual currency at all. Then, other stuff started vanishing off the table too.
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Post by ScottDinTN on Oct 27, 2019 20:51:16 GMT -5
Yes, its the reason I never cut back on other things to make her have sex with me. Its not just intercourse that I wanted. I want to see the desire in her eyes. I want her to want me. That never happened and I wasn't going to bribe her for it. We don't have sex at all anymore but I will also never have to accept duty or pity sex. Its worse than no sex.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 27, 2019 21:24:18 GMT -5
Ever experiment with any of that? Things you don't offer now that you used to? Any chores you don't do now that you used to? Any things you cut back on when sex becomes rare? My 'cutting back in chores' began AFTER I decided to end the marriage .(she had already decided to discard me). Not realizing the great lengths she would go to ,too continue her power and control over the family, my choice to show her " you better start getting used to doing ALL THESE things, you took for granite, by YOURSELF." She then turned it around against me by brainwashing my children ( and anyone else in her realm of flying monkeys) into believing that their father is just a selfish, mean and angry person. Just be aware of the manipulative control that will be used against you.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 27, 2019 23:55:35 GMT -5
It seems mightily dysfunctional to engage in a household Cold War with someone you are supposed to be married to. What does "winning" look like in this situation?
I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me, or who doesn't see me as a sexual partner. If I have a problem with my partner, or an unfulfilled need, I use words and say it, and then we negotiate it.
In the case of my ex-wife, I learned that her word on that topic, wasn't really any good, so then it came down to how important it was that my wife is attracted to me sexually, or that she like or love me enough to see me as a sexual partner. Turns out, it is critically important to me.
The things I cut back on, at that point, are things that help me present as a couple with her. Attending events with her, family, sharing a bed, wearing a wedding ring, special dinners and romantic effort.
The things I turn up, are personal interests and friends, and we can split the household maintenance effort until we are ready to split the rest of finances.
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Post by DryCreek on Oct 28, 2019 1:12:30 GMT -5
“Two wrongs don’t make a right”, and all that. It’s a downward spiral.
Withholding isn’t likely to change their desire or raise their awareness, just penalize them and create friction that works counter to your goal.
On the other hand, I’m no longer inspired to go out of my way to do favors. Instead of bailing her out of a hard project, I’m more inclined to focus on my own and let her struggle through hers alone. For me, it’s not about retaliation, but rather not putting my own interests aside for someone who isn’t interested in me.
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Post by workingonit on Oct 28, 2019 5:54:56 GMT -5
We are in this weird in between state where we are divorcing but still living together. It is awkward so my answer is skewed. I did not stop doing things until it got bad. For example we built him his dream study, invested tons of money. It is enormous and all his. I started off helping to take care of the space then just stopped. I told him it was his space entirely and he could look after it. It now looks like a mild episode of hoarders. But of course it is only hurting me as it is our house and the dust and cobwebs and who knows what else is not good for anyone. And when he cannot find the thousands of postits he bought he goes out to buy thousands more.
But this whole chore thing is a weird topic. Like are you only doing those things for your partner? It is your house too, no? Why is yardwork a favor to your SO as opposed to a task to maintain the home you own? It is a sensitive topic because I do so much more than he does. And he is so much messier than everyone else.
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Post by lessingham on Oct 28, 2019 6:32:56 GMT -5
One of the greatest quotes I read was in a book about the Vietnam war. An American politician mused, "you cannot win against a person who does not give a fuck." It seems to me from reading the histories here, many refusers do not give a fuck and so no matter what you do, you cannot win. Following the advice of my therapist I stopped doing the chores in an attempt to rebalance the marriage. The washing pile reached over a metre high. She just bought new clothes rather than wash them. My son was reprimanded at work for wearing dirty clothes but carried on doing it. Again, in my mere male opinion, most wives would react quite strongly to the idea that we do chores in return for sex... and not in a good way.
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Post by shamwow on Oct 28, 2019 8:15:55 GMT -5
I never cut back on chores even after the sex dried up.
I was a most excellent sherpa.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 28, 2019 9:26:38 GMT -5
One of the greatest quotes I read was in a book about the Vietnam war. An American politician mused, "you cannot win against a person who does not give a fuck." It seems to me from reading the histories here, many refusers do not give a fuck and so no matter what you do, you cannot win. Following the advice of my therapist I stopped doing the chores in an attempt to rebalance the marriage. The washing pile reached over a metre high. She just bought new clothes rather than wash them. My son was reprimanded at work for wearing dirty clothes but carried on doing it. Again, in my mere male opinion, most wives would react quite strongly to the idea that we do chores in return for sex... and not in a good way. Most refusers certainly don't give a fuck about having sex with someone they don't want, even if the laundry piles high and the yard returns to pasture. Laundry must get done, even if it is a chore. The day will go on though, if sex chores are left behind. There are many discussions here about what's the tipping point to leave. I'd focus on the trajectory and inclination first though. If sex with the partner you have is something that improves your life, then you are probably going to have more of it. If having sex with that person depletes you because you really don't think of them like that anymore, then you are going to avoid it. Run that pattern for a few years and see where it's pointed.
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 28, 2019 17:43:12 GMT -5
I never cut back on the chores or misc. things I did around the house. I did however stop the effort at intimacy. I stopped kissing her, stopped hugging, stopped the random caresses and cupping her breasts at every opportunity. I distanced myself from her and the marriage. It wasn't easy and the result was she quickly talked with an attorney and made plans to move out.
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Post by ScottDinTN on Oct 28, 2019 22:06:40 GMT -5
I never cut back on the chores or misc. things I did around the house. I did however stop the effort at intimacy. I stopped kissing her, stopped hugging, stopped the random caresses and cupping her breasts at every opportunity. I distanced myself from her and the marriage. It wasn't easy and the result was she quickly talked with an attorney and made plans to move out. Funny how they will consider leaving over not having affection but don't think not having sex is a big deal.
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Post by csl on Oct 28, 2019 22:29:44 GMT -5
Yes I have cut back. Most notably when it comes to that MFing honeydew list. Now she can expect to nag me for a few months before I say “OK I will paint the ceiling after you go buy the paint, get out the rollers and brushes and clean and prep the surface.” Then she will try and negotiate down on that scope, and I allow some of that, like a fool. (After all, what’s she going to do, leave?) In reality, her power is in her lips. I ended up buying the paint and rolling it on just to get her to shut them. Oooor, "Nah, I don't think so. I like the ceiling just as it is. But if you want to do it, knock yourself out."
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