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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 25, 2019 8:03:39 GMT -5
In my case the question changes tense. Why did I leave? Just like several women at this site who spoke to not being able to stay any longer in a relationship that provided no emotional and almost no physical sustenance, I had reached "deal breaker status". I couldn't stay in the marriage any longer. After a # of talks and attempts at resetting the marriage I finally accepted that my then W simply had almost no desire for intimacy with me. And I realized that following my employers closing the business and my being unable to find employment anywhere close to the management level I was at previously, she no longer considered me her equal. She no longer saw me as an Alpha male. It seemed to me she had essentially lost respect for me. Her constant refusal of intimacy was I think just the most obvious means of expressing that loss of respect. Coupled with the completion of menopause for her that ended almost any desire she had for sex or other forms of intimacy. Kissing, cuddling, petting, all gone. We could have gone on as amiable house mates but I wanted more than that, and I was really unwilling to give up intimacy. I still had a pretty strong libido. When I was unable to convince her to go along with me having a FWB I could see how little my feelings entered in to her decisions about the marriage. Our relationship could have remained as us just co-habituating as we got along pretty well. But the marriage was done. So I began distancing myself from her and the marriage. And the rest as they say is history.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 25, 2019 10:29:09 GMT -5
A bit of sunk cost fallacy, which I think is tied to the way people mistakenly frame the problem.
Think of a gambler shoveling coins into a slot machine, or a group of people waiting 10 minutes for an elevator -with the stairs right beside. No one wants to get up and leave only to have someone sit down and hit a jackpot on the first pull, or the doors open up as soon as the stairwell door closes behind you. It's about the feeling of propriety and cosmic justice - as if the effort you have put in has anything to do with the happy ending you deserve, or you think you are entitled to.
By the time you realize you have made yourself poor, all your bets are in the slot machine. Consider the way most of us frame the problem as one of entitlements being denied. That's not really how people want sex.
The mistake is that love has nothing to do with what you deserve. The slot machine, the elevator, the unknown element in your partner - has its own independent agenda that runs irrespective of your effort or pain. And when eventually you have to get up from your place and someone else sits down in the seat you vacated - their win won't have anything to do with you. But it wont' feel that way.
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Post by sadkat on Oct 25, 2019 12:21:02 GMT -5
I decided to leave because: a) I had ruled out every reasonable and unreasonable remedy I could think of. b) It seemed well established that she was easily able to be attracted to and kind to her friends, coworkers and others - while treating me and my family with contempt c) I watched an older couple on what seemed to be a date, having a burger and fries together - on vacation - and I realized at that moment - that the quality of their casual interaction was impossible with a person who obviously hated me. I asked that night if she wanted to be married to me. She said she didn't know. I said that her response and behavior likely wouldn't get a second date with me, let alone a sustained relationship or marriage. It was over. You’ve been a wealth of very good information Apocrypha. Thank you for your contributions here. I, for one, value your input greatly.
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Post by sadkat on Oct 25, 2019 12:24:08 GMT -5
It's really quite simple, I have the emotional intelligence of a labradoodle. Days like this I wish for an aneurysm. I’m sorry you’re feeling down today Vitruvius. I hope it passes quickly.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 25, 2019 12:25:57 GMT -5
I decided to leave because: a) I had ruled out every reasonable and unreasonable remedy I could think of. b) It seemed well established that she was easily able to be attracted to and kind to her friends, coworkers and others - while treating me and my family with contempt c) I watched an older couple on what seemed to be a date, having a burger and fries together - on vacation - and I realized at that moment - that the quality of their casual interaction was impossible with a person who obviously hated me. I asked that night if she wanted to be married to me. She said she didn't know. I said that her response and behavior likely wouldn't get a second date with me, let alone a sustained relationship or marriage. It was over. You’ve been a wealth of very good information Apocrypha . Thank you for your contributions here. I, for one, value your input greatly. I appreciate your response sadkat. Experience and realizations that came at a high price. If my experiences can help anyone else move faster toward the truth of their own relationship, whatever that may be, then hopefully there is value and meaning in it.
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Post by sadkat on Oct 25, 2019 12:28:06 GMT -5
I guess I’m more literal. All I interpreted from your post was your reasons for staying. I do remember something about winning the lottery (not sure if It was your post, though) If the only way someone would leave is if they won the lottery, that pretty much equals “nothing” as the chances of winning the lottery are slim to none. That lottery comment was true, but not the only way I would leave. Lottery would just be the quickest. My W has been frequently applying for new jobs that would pay better. If she got a better paying job, we could be separated within a couple years. There's a wide range between "lottery money" and "enough to make it feasible". Very true h. That’s encouraging. I usually don’t want to encourage people to separate (it has been an incredibly difficult and painful journey for me). However, I’m concerned over your state of mind and think you’d be better off moving in that direction.
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Post by sadkat on Oct 25, 2019 12:36:30 GMT -5
worksforme2. I agree with the “deal breaker status” reason. I really don’t understand how a woman can use menopause as a reason to stop the affection that’s so important in any relationship. I totally understand the loss in sex drive as a result of menopause but I don’t see how it should translate to stopping all forms of affection and intimacy. Frankly, I fear what may happen when I get through menopause and must stop hormone therapy. Older women like northstarmom give me a lot of hope. I’ve got a lot of lost time I want to make up for. I think a woman’s willingness to work through the changes menopause brings will go a long way to successfully maintaining a strong intimate relationship with her partner.
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Post by h on Oct 25, 2019 13:03:08 GMT -5
That lottery comment was true, but not the only way I would leave. Lottery would just be the quickest. My W has been frequently applying for new jobs that would pay better. If she got a better paying job, we could be separated within a couple years. There's a wide range between "lottery money" and "enough to make it feasible". Very true h . That’s encouraging. I usually don’t want to encourage people to separate (it has been an incredibly difficult and painful journey for me). However, I’m concerned over your state of mind and think you’d be better off moving in that direction. My state of mind isn't great. I'll be honest and say that I'm depressed most days but never bad enough to think "I need help." I'm at the point where everything I do is intentional. I have weighed my options, gone through the list of consequences of each, and chosen my path. My path is about 95% likely to end in divorce at some point. The only uncertainty is the amount of time it will take to get there. It could be a few years, a decade, or mere months (if I won the lottery). There is a chance that I'll never be able to afford getting out, but that's not something I can change it that's the case. If the day ever comes where I realize for certain that I'm stuck till death, then I'll probably go get medical/psychological help to deal with it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 15:17:41 GMT -5
So, I think we’ve exhausted the discussion on women and why they might leave their marriages in greater numbers than men. @tooyoungtobeold started a very good thread about why a person would choose to stay in a marriage. This question is focused on the men. My apologies in advance to the women if you feel excluded. Feel free to jump in with an opinion but let’s see if we can keep focused on the men. So, here’s my question: you’ve listed many reasons why you would stay in a sexless marriage. What would be a major factor (or factors) that would make you leave? Why? I've already let go of the sex so no adjustment in the sex life is expected or chased. I can't really explain why I've moved on either. A flip just switched somewhere. But, with sexpectations out of the way, there isn't really a tipping point moment that would make me leave that is of the "OK, now I can leave" variety. There are some things I can think of that would make me leave but they fall into the "Oh, that's our relationship" type.
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Post by sadkat on Oct 25, 2019 17:45:31 GMT -5
So, I think we’ve exhausted the discussion on women and why they might leave their marriages in greater numbers than men. @tooyoungtobeold started a very good thread about why a person would choose to stay in a marriage. This question is focused on the men. My apologies in advance to the women if you feel excluded. Feel free to jump in with an opinion but let’s see if we can keep focused on the men. So, here’s my question: you’ve listed many reasons why you would stay in a sexless marriage. What would be a major factor (or factors) that would make you leave? Why? I've already let go of the sex so no adjustment in the sex life is expected or chased. I can't really explain why I've moved on either. A flip just switched somewhere. But, with sexpectations out of the way, there isn't really a tipping point moment that would make me leave that is of the "OK, now I can leave" variety. There are some things I can think of that would make me leave but they fall into the "Oh, that's our relationship" type. Hmm- can you explain further? I’m confused. If you leave, you leave the relationship regardless of whether or not sex is in the picture? Not sure what you meant by that. I remember many times during my 22 years of sexlessness when I decided I didn’t “need” sex. It didn’t last, though. Invariably, I’d wake up one day seeing my life stretched out barren of love and affection. Looking back now, I can clearly see that wasn’t a good place to be.
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Post by baza on Oct 25, 2019 18:22:15 GMT -5
It's interesting how the "I'd leave if ....." reasoning advanced is often contingent upon some highly unlikely event taking place.
Like "I'd leave if ... I won the lottery"
You rarely see a claim that "I'd leave if the present unsatisfactory situation continued for X amount of time " - yet that (a further period of time in the ILIASM shithole) is by far and away the most likely thing that will - eventually - drive you out.
It is not usually a "new/fresh" cataclysmic event that drives you out, it is "more of the same" that accrues into a dealbreaker.
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Post by jim44444 on Oct 25, 2019 18:30:44 GMT -5
Interesting question, food for thought. I guess the reasons for leaving are as numerous as the reasons for staying.
For me 1. She declares she wants a divorce. There would be no discussion to change her mind just financial negotiations.
2. She gets convicted of a crime or joins a cult.
3. I fall in love with someone local.
4. I decide my life would be better without her than with her. This is the big one and really the only reason to leave. All other reasons are a subset of this and just paltry explanations to soothe egos.
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Post by sadkat on Oct 25, 2019 18:38:12 GMT -5
Wow jim44444- I think you hit the nail on the head with #4! I appreciate your bluntness.
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Post by Handy on Oct 25, 2019 20:15:34 GMT -5
I need an answer to my own situation. How does a person deal with the life ling belief that divorce is the chicken / selfish way out of a barren marriage?
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Post by shamwow on Oct 25, 2019 20:18:46 GMT -5
I need an answer to my own situation. How does a person deal with the life ling belief that divorce is the chicken way out of a barren marriage? You get to choose what you believe, friend. To answer your question, choose to believe differently.
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