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Post by lessingham on Aug 16, 2019 4:47:16 GMT -5
I am not unhappy with my choice, I am very angry. I am angry with my wife for putting me through 40 years of crap. I am even more angry with myself for allowing her. I am angry that after years of counselling I cannot find the way to put that anger into action and so it festers. The most interesting thing anyone said to me was a good friend, "You know, the day you finally snap, I want to be on the fastest plane out of the country." I know the solution to anger is either to feel it or let it go, but acting on that knowledge is so hard for me. Hence I dither and delay and nothing changes.
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Post by nyartgal on Aug 16, 2019 6:33:18 GMT -5
In an ILIASM deal (you being the refused spouse) your spouse does not find you sexually desirable. Possibly, they don't find anyone sexually desirable, but they certainly don't find you sexually desirable. Possibly, they do find some people sexually desirable, but you ain't one of them. Some examples for you of people who were not desired in one situation, but greatly desired in another. Sister nyartgal - her spouse did not find her sexually desirable, yet after getting out of her ILIASM shithole she happened upon Senor Sexyguy who found her highly sexually desirable and still does after about 5 years and two kids. Brother shamwow - his spouse did not find him terribly sexually desirable at all. Yet, post ILIASM shithole when he happened across ballofconfusion who finds him very rootable indeed. Sister elkclan2 - her spouse certainly didn't find her sexually desirable in the least. But once out of that deal she happened across a bloke who found her highly sexually desirable, and they've been boofing each other happily ever since. Brother greatcoastal - his spouse found him extremely sexually undesirable. But, once he got shot of her he found he was sexually desirable to a number of women, and is currently well ensconced in a deal with a woman who thinks he is quite the stud. Chances are that *you* are not sexually undesirable in the wider picture. Just because your present spouse does not find you sexually desirable does not mean that someone else would be of the same opinion. My SM ended in July 2012 and I still have zero idea exactly what happened with my ex’s sex drive/aversion to me/etc. I know he was deeply passive aggressive and came up with an excuse to be mad at me for years and punish me by making sure I never enjoyed sex. But that will never fully satisfy the “Why” because it still seems INSANE. The good news is that the problem was just him, and once I got rid of him, I got rid of the problem! HA!
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 16, 2019 7:16:23 GMT -5
lessingham You should be angry at yourself. For allowing your wife to live rent free in your head. We are each responsible for our happiness. That burden never falls on someone else. In effect you are outsourcing your happiness and well being. Now funnel that anger elsewhere. Into a hobby or past time. I go to the gym and lift heavy weights. The heaviest I can. I know that doesnt work for everyone. But find something you like to do and pour yourself into it. Heck, buy a punching bag and punch, kick that anger away. One day hopefully, you will forgive yourself. And the anger will dissipate. Try to do what you can to get there. Anger happens. But its not a good place to stay. For yourself most of all. If you are the reading type, I would suggest the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. By Robert Glover. It talks about validation seeking behaviour and the notion of covert contracts. You might find yourself reflected. I am not unhappy with my choice, I am very angry. I am angry with my wife for putting me through 40 years of crap. I am even more angry with myself for allowing her. I am angry that after years of counselling I cannot find the way to put that anger into action and so it festers. The most interesting thing anyone said to me was a good friend, "You know, the day you finally snap, I want to be on the fastest plane out of the country." I know the solution to anger is either to feel it or let it go, but acting on that knowledge is so hard for me. Hence I dither and delay and nothing changes.
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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 16, 2019 7:28:04 GMT -5
My SM ended in July 2012 and I still have zero idea exactly what happened with my ex’s sex drive/aversion to me/etc. I know he was deeply passive aggressive and came up with an excuse to be mad at me for years and punish me by making sure I never enjoyed sex. But that will never fully satisfy the “Why” because it still seems INSANE. The good news is that the problem was just him, and once I got rid of him, I got rid of the problem! HA! Feels really good to have that last laugh doesn't it …….not as good as wild monkey sex, but good.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 20, 2019 11:00:58 GMT -5
It's the most common thing I write about on here.
Post-separation and living in a metropolitan city, I've been on the dating market for 4 years, give or take. What I've found in the field is consistent with what I found in my own relationship: Overwhelmingly, "aesexual women" in their own marriage are very eager to embark upon a sexual relationship with a new partner, and often with a pretty low threshold for "yes". That includes my ex wife. Same goes for women whose husbands were "aesexual" - except it's not as noticeable with them because men tend to have a lot of competition with other men and tend to have to work harder at it.
It's not like people split up and then are overjoyed that they never have to have sex again.
Whether they are aesexual or not, gay or not, or whatever it is, it doesn't change the common denominator - which is you. You don't have a sexual relationship with that person.
For the longest time - for too long - I struggled trying to figure out the reason, partly to use that knowledge to put a moat around what my ego wouldn't let me seriously consider: that it was a problem with how she felt about me and/or marriage.
I treated it like a puzzle. After her affair and a couple YEARS of difficult therapy, it became apparent that she'd written a narrative about me that was based off a gross misunderstanding of my motivations, as well as a massive projection of her own issues with her father - seemingly casting me in that role when we are nothing alike. It was pretty obvious, and she admitted as such later on, but that intellectual knowledge changed nothing about a decade or more of her seeing me in a certain way. Later on, I realized that even that wasn't going deep enough. Some four years of reflection and occasional discussions later, I realize the source of the problem: though she said "yes", she never wanted to get married to me. Perhaps not at all, but that's not mine to see - she should not have married me.
I realize, in hindsight, there is likely nothing I could have done - the goalposts shifted with every problem and reason I alone or we together worked to resolve - in fact made her resentment and urgency worse. With every excuse shredded, every "reason" solved, with marriage itself redefined to allow her all the benefits of a single woman while retaining the marriage as well - it just got worse, because she was externalizing her resentment and looking for reasons to justify the mistake she made over a decade ago. She did not want to marry me.
We can discover all kinds of reasons and a chaffe of gripes - but sometimes these aren't causes or problems to be solved, but rather justifications or rationales for the resentment.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 20, 2019 11:09:28 GMT -5
A lot of of hard earned truth in this post. It's the most common thing I write about on here. Post-separation and living in a metropolitan city, I've been on the dating market for 4 years, give or take. What I've found in the field is consistent with what I found in my own relationship: Overwhelmingly, "aesexual women" in their own marriage are very eager to embark upon a sexual relationship with a new partner, and often with a pretty low threshold for "yes". That includes my ex wife. Same goes for women whose husbands were "aesexual" - except it's not as noticeable with them because men tend to have a lot of competition with other men and tend to have to work harder at it. It's not like people split up and then are overjoyed that they never have to have sex again. Whether they are aesexual or not, gay or not, or whatever it is, it doesn't change the common denominator - which is you. You don't have a sexual relationship with that person. For the longest time - for too long - I struggled trying to figure out the reason, partly to use that knowledge to put a moat around what my ego wouldn't let me seriously consider: that it was a problem with her, and not a problem with how she felt about me. I treated it like a puzzle. After her affair and a couple YEARS of difficult therapy, it became apparent that she'd written a narrative about me that was based off a gross misunderstanding of my motivations, as well as a massive projection of her own issues with her father - seemingly casting me in that role when we are nothing alike. It was pretty obvious, and she admitted as such later on, but that intellectual knowledge changed nothing about a decade or more of her seeing me in a certain way. Later on, I realized that even that wasn't going deep enough. Some four years of reflection and occasional discussions later, I realize the source of the problem: though she said "yes", she never wanted to get married to me. Perhaps not at all, but that's not mine to see - she should not have married me. I realize, in hindsight, there is likely nothing I could have done - the goalposts shifted with every problem and reason I alone or we together worked to resolve - in fact made her resentment and urgency worse. With every excuse shredded, every "reason" solved, with marriage itself redefined to allow her all the benefits of a single woman while retaining the marriage as well - it just got worse, because she was externalizing her resentment and looking for reasons to justify the mistake she made over a decade ago. She did not want to marry me. We can discover all kinds of reasons and a chaffe of gripes - but sometimes these aren't causes or problems to be solved, but rather justifications or rationales for the resentment.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 20, 2019 11:28:25 GMT -5
I'd add:
I recall being obsessed with the idea that if there was a problem with me, with who I am, with my approach, with the structure of marriage in general etc - pretty much everything was on the table to negotiate. And those who know my story also know I meant it and backed it up. I changed ALL of those things, chasing the moving goalposts, and I think went through a lot of personal growth that made me a fairly dateable person on the back end of it.
But - and I'm not sure people can be TOLD this - fixing or changing these things isn't likely to change the inertia or momentum in the relationship. There's a difference between correcting a fundamental misalignment or misperception, and in how someone sees you as a person. With hard work at the right scale, you can make a pretty good case that you or your marriage is something quite different from what your spouse thought to be true. They can even recognize this as a fact. But it doesn't CHANGE the feeling, once it's gone so long as to destroy desire for that person.
PS: For those who are single and/or dating again A positive outcome from this is that I've developed a keen sense of the valence of the relationships I'm in. It's not hard in the first couple of months to look at the pattern of interactions with a romantic interest and determine, even it it's challenging, whether someone is TRYING to make it work, or is using those challenges to rationalize barriers.
I'm all for constructive criticism and authentic talk and check ins, with the understanding that someone who wants it to work is going to couch that in diplomacy, and is also going to shoulder his/her own pack, and bring something to the table, and is also bearing their load of the cost of the relationship.
Take dating someone from out of town, for example, with kids. You know up front that there will be a cost to this. Time, logistics, privacy - all require some grace. Or, for those who are having an affair and catch feelings, then you know there is an apogee, past which public affirmations of support are going to fall short of what your best friend does, or even what a rival suitor does - who's less concerned with the discretion that's in your long term interest. If that grace is not understood or offered, if the quality of those discussions is not really about problem solving and is more about an escape hatch.
Worth keeping in mind for those who are in therapy as well.
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Post by elkclan2 on Aug 23, 2019 5:03:37 GMT -5
My ex wasn't asexual, but he clearly preferred masturbating over sex with me and always did. It's on me that I accepted the behaviour. It's on him that he was willing to string me along to keep a partner and not be alone. TBH, he seems quite happy using our son as the audience for his monologues, his hobby playmate and emotional support animal. This, of course, is not good parenting and will leave him pretty lonely at some point. I think he'd like to have a romantic partner, but I don't think he's able to make the compromises that would require. Such as basic reciprocity...
He also revealed in our first and only session of marriage therapy that he had always found me ''romantically and intellectually attractive but not physically attractive". Whether that was always true or if he had convinced himself that he'd always felt that way doesn't really matter. I definitely wish he'd been honest about it, but it didn't benefit him to do so and he frankly lacked the introspective ability to realise that was on him and he shouldn't have pretended otherwise.
So I guess I have my why.
If I had found out that he was having a physical affair I would have been miffed. Not outraged, but definitely miffed. Because he'd strung me along pretending we could have a good sex life if only I'd done x, y, z. Although it would have also made me quite happy in that it would have given me an easy out. I nearly took an out when he had an emotional affair while being jobless and relying on me to do his employment search. I should have taken it. That's on me.
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Post by frednsa on Aug 23, 2019 8:46:24 GMT -5
in my case, a half-century of observation/participation would have revealed that..........but it's always a slight suspicion
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 23, 2019 9:53:03 GMT -5
If I had found out that he was having a physical affair I would have been miffed. Not outraged, but definitely miffed. Because he'd strung me along pretending we could have a good sex life if only I'd done x, y, z. Although it would have also made me quite happy in that it would have given me an easy out. I nearly took an out when he had an emotional affair while being jobless and relying on me to do his employment search. I should have taken it. That's on me. It's a tough one to swallow, to be sure. While I don't know the particulars in your scenario, I do note that it's pretty common in these things (my own ex as well) for people to find outlets for their sexuality - like masturbating - that they prefer over having sex with someone they don't want to root. That doesn't mean they prefer that in general. It's more likely that they view it as a compromise as well, and this allows them to see themselves as the hero - choosing marriage over sex. This means, as put out as you feel, it's quite likely they feel they are kicking in the afterburners too, in trying to "save the marriage" and feel just as trapped by circumstance - not wanting to leave behind the benefits of marriage that are obvious to you both. For those reading along here, it's important to consider that information as you plot the trajectory forward. I've never really seen a situation where someone whose antipathy had risen to the point of overriding their sex drive, suddenly realizing it was an error.
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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 23, 2019 12:22:47 GMT -5
If I had found out that he was having a physical affair I would have been miffed. Not outraged, but definitely miffed. Because he'd strung me along pretending we could have a good sex life if only I'd done x, y, z. Although it would have also made me quite happy in that it would have given me an easy out. I nearly took an out when he had an emotional affair while being jobless and relying on me to do his employment search. I should have taken it. That's on me. It's a tough one to swallow, to be sure. While I don't know the particulars in your scenario, I do note that it's pretty common in these things (my own ex as well) for people to find outlets for their sexuality - like masturbating - that they prefer over having sex with someone they don't want to root. That doesn't mean they prefer that in general. It's more likely that they view it as a compromise as well, and this allows them to see themselves as the hero - choosing marriage over sex. This means, as put out as you feel, it's quite likely they feel they are kicking in the afterburners too, in trying to "save the marriage" and feel just as trapped by circumstance - not wanting to leave behind the benefits of marriage that are obvious to you both. For those reading along here, it's important to consider that information as you plot the trajectory forward. I've never really seen a situation where someone whose antipathy had risen to the point of overriding their sex drive, suddenly realizing it was an error. Someone who's apathy rises to the point of overriding their sex drive, suddenly realizing it was an error. In my own case I have to agree. But the thing I don't understand is why when confronted with the obvious result this apathy brings about, they don't usually seek some accommodative behavior that might make the situation tolerable or manageable for their spouse. A couple ladies( and only a couple) here have posted about their spouses agreeing to a don't ask don't tell policy, thus allowing them to take care of things outside the marriage. As yet I haven't read a posting from any males here analogous to their W's allowing for the same. My X would not go along with it either, preferring divorce to me outsourcing. I have thought about this repeatedly but as yet I have not been able to find any sort of definitive reasoning behind the behavior, either for males or females.
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Post by elkclan2 on Aug 24, 2019 1:23:51 GMT -5
worksforme2 my partner and I have already talked about what would happen if - due to some kind of physical circumstance - we found ourselves in a sexless marriage. Definitely outsourcing. But also - this time - staying in this relationship. Who is to say what we'd really do faced with the circumstances, if say there was also a lack of other physical intimacy.
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Post by sadkat on Aug 24, 2019 6:15:00 GMT -5
It's a tough one to swallow, to be sure. While I don't know the particulars in your scenario, I do note that it's pretty common in these things (my own ex as well) for people to find outlets for their sexuality - like masturbating - that they prefer over having sex with someone they don't want to root. That doesn't mean they prefer that in general. It's more likely that they view it as a compromise as well, and this allows them to see themselves as the hero - choosing marriage over sex. This means, as put out as you feel, it's quite likely they feel they are kicking in the afterburners too, in trying to "save the marriage" and feel just as trapped by circumstance - not wanting to leave behind the benefits of marriage that are obvious to you both. For those reading along here, it's important to consider that information as you plot the trajectory forward. I've never really seen a situation where someone whose antipathy had risen to the point of overriding their sex drive, suddenly realizing it was an error. Someone who's apathy rises to the point of overriding their sex drive, suddenly realizing it was an error. In my own case I have to agree. But the thing I don't understand is why when confronted with the obvious result this apathy brings about, they don't usually seek some accommodative behavior that might make the situation tolerable or manageable for their spouse. A couple ladies( and only a couple) here have posted about their spouses agreeing to a don't ask don't tell policy, thus allowing them to take care of things outside the marriage. As yet I haven't read a posting from any males here analogous to their W's allowing for the same. My X would not go along with it either, preferring divorce to me outsourcing. I have thought about this repeatedly but as yet I have not been able to find any sort of definitive reasoning behind the behavior, either for males or females. This is an interesting comment worksforme2. For me, intimacy is an “all in” kind of thing. I tend to give of myself wholeheartedly. I’m not the kind of person who can have sex for just the release. Sex is an expression of how I feel toward someone. My h knows this about me. If I asked him to open the marriage to allow outsourcing, he would know right away that he has lost my focus and attention. On the flip side (and prior to my disengaging from him), if h told me he wanted to open the marriage, the lense through which I see sex would be such that I would assume he would be emotionally withdrawing from me as well. Perhaps this is why most spouses refuse to open a marriage?
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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 24, 2019 6:58:06 GMT -5
Someone who's apathy rises to the point of overriding their sex drive, suddenly realizing it was an error. In my own case I have to agree. But the thing I don't understand is why when confronted with the obvious result this apathy brings about, they don't usually seek some accommodative behavior that might make the situation tolerable or manageable for their spouse. A couple ladies( and only a couple) here have posted about their spouses agreeing to a don't ask don't tell policy, thus allowing them to take care of things outside the marriage. As yet I haven't read a posting from any males here analogous to their W's allowing for the same. My X would not go along with it either, preferring divorce to me outsourcing. I have thought about this repeatedly but as yet I have not been able to find any sort of definitive reasoning behind the behavior, either for males or females. This is an interesting comment worksforme2 . For me, intimacy is an “all in” kind of thing. I tend to give of myself wholeheartedly. I’m not the kind of person who can have sex for just the release. Sex is an expression of how I feel toward someone. My h knows this about me. If I asked him to open the marriage to allow outsourcing, he would know right away that he has lost my focus and attention. On the flip side (and prior to my disengaging from him), if h told me he wanted to open the marriage, the lense through which I see sex would be such that I would assume he would be emotionally withdrawing from me as well. Perhaps this is why most spouses refuse to open a marriage? This has also crossed my mind as I have tried to answer one of my own "why's". SO's when confronted with a request from their spouse to open up the relationship almost certainly have to realize that their partner is pulling away from not just the relationship, but from them. After all, isn't the marriage relationship predicated around the notion of exclusive intimacy with one's spouse? But seeing this, their response isn't to make a recommitment to the relationship or a search of their own feelings. It seems more often the response is denial, or avoidance or apathy. How is it when your partner is yelling "the house is on fire", seldom do them seem to be really energized to do something about putting out the fire. Or if they do (reset sex) it seems when they no longer see flames they view the emergency as taken care of. They don't see the smoke still coming off the smoldering embers. Fear of emotional withdrawal is certainly possible fear. But it seems to me that by the time when the "talk" usually takes place, emotional withdrawal is already creeping into the picture. And faced with the real prospect of divorce, how could they not think emotional withdrawal would not surely be a part of that process.
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Post by sadkat on Aug 24, 2019 9:36:24 GMT -5
This is an interesting comment worksforme2 . For me, intimacy is an “all in” kind of thing. I tend to give of myself wholeheartedly. I’m not the kind of person who can have sex for just the release. Sex is an expression of how I feel toward someone. My h knows this about me. If I asked him to open the marriage to allow outsourcing, he would know right away that he has lost my focus and attention. On the flip side (and prior to my disengaging from him), if h told me he wanted to open the marriage, the lense through which I see sex would be such that I would assume he would be emotionally withdrawing from me as well. Perhaps this is why most spouses refuse to open a marriage? This has also crossed my mind as I have tried to answer one of my own "why's". SO's when confronted with a request from their spouse to open up the relationship almost certainly have to realize that their partner is pulling away from not just the relationship, but from them. After all, isn't the marriage relationship predicated around the notion of exclusive intimacy with one's spouse? But seeing this, their response isn't to make a recommitment to the relationship or a search of their own feelings. It seems more often the response is denial, or avoidance or apathy. How is it when your partner is yelling "the house is on fire", seldom do them seem to be really energized to do something about putting out the fire. Or if they do (reset sex) it seems when they no longer see flames they view the emergency as taken care of. They don't see the smoke still coming off the smoldering embers. Fear of emotional withdrawal is certainly possible fear. But it seems to me that by the time when the "talk" usually takes place, emotional withdrawal is already creeping into the picture. And faced with the real prospect of divorce, how could they not think emotional withdrawal would not surely be a part of that process. I think we have to look at the issue of being faced with the real possibility of divorce. How many times have we had “the talk” and then stayed anyway? In my case, it was years! Our partners get lulled into complacency. They begin to think that they just need to put forth a little more effort, be a little nicer, show a little more affection. After all, that behavior worked with all of the previous talks. Why wouldn’t it work this time? When my h was finally faced with the real possibility of divorce, it took months for him to accept it. He did all of the things he typically did when I had “the talk”- he reduced his porn us (or hid it better), he was more attentive, more affectionate. When he saw that it wasn’t having the desired effect, he finally realized the finality and, by then, it was way too late. As they say, hindsight is perfect vision. Had I known 20 years ago what I know now, my first “talk” would have been a whole lot different.
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