sunnysean
Junior Member
Posts: 59
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by sunnysean on Jul 21, 2019 16:26:45 GMT -5
I can't get myself together. I used to never hate myself. Sure I would self disappoint and not live up to my standards, but I never self-loathed like this. I genuinely liked who I was. Not anymore. I wake up angry. Angry at myself.
To cope, I try to get angry about the world. When I do, I channel that anger at stupid things and not myself, but that doesn't last very long. After a little while, the self-loathing comes back.
I do my best not to be angry at my family, and I think I do an okay job at that. I try to hide as much of it as I can from my wife. I just try to keep it on a simmer. I'm sure she knows I'm not right; we don't talk about it. I can tell her almost anything, but I can't talk about my self-loathing or sex.
We have been married for over 20 years. While we both dated other people in high school, we have only been with each other and even waited until our wedding night to have sex.
My wife is not a touchy-feely person. She only wants to be touched when she wants to be touched. She also doesn't like to touch other people much. She knows this about herself, and she knows that I am entirely different. She does make an effort to show me some physical affection, like patting my on the back, brushing my face with her hand. I know she loves me, and I love her.
I spent the first few years of our marriage trying to figure out what turns her on, and just figuring out what sex was about. I felt every time I figured something out, and the game would change. If I did Y, she would get turned on. The next time I tried Y, it didn't work and seemed to annoy her.
The first year of our marriage, I would say we had sex 2-3 times a month. By the end of the first year, I stopped trying to initiate sex. She had become the gatekeeper, and I was tired of the rejection, and it hurt less if I didn't get the direct rejection.
I didn't anticipate the lack of sex to affect me as it has. After all, I waited until marriage to have it, I should be used to not having it. Our 2nd year of marriage, we had sex eight times. Our 4th year it was 6. By the 3rd year of marriage, I had turned to food as a substitute for sex. That was a bad move. I quickly gained 60-70 lbs of the course of a couple of years. That didn't seem to change my sex life though. 5-10 times a year was the norm for several years.
One thing that bothers me, and I know it shouldn't, I know she takes matters into her own hands all the time. I don't think she understands she is not very discrete about it and her toys make noise. One time I thought perhaps she wants me to walk in on her so to speak and catch her. I tried that, but when I walked into the room she was playing in, I did make enough noise she could respond before I got there and she tried to hide the fact, and I didn't call her out. I acted like I didn't know what she had been doing. I know that's my fault. I just find it disparaging that it's better to do it by herself than with me. It drives insane sometimes knowing what is going on and just sitting there aroused and saddened by it.
Then we decided to have a child. That changed the dynamics. Unless you want to spend money on medical procedures, you have to have sex to have a child. It was great. She seemed to be into it, and I was certainly into it. It took us a couple of year's to conceive. I did not count the times because we had it often enough that I forgot to count. I would say 3-5 times a month.
After the pregnancy, our sex life seemed better than it had been in the past, but as time went on, it slowed down again to just a few times a year.
I then lost weight, a lot of weight. Things improved slightly, so I knew that it was a good call. That lasted for about a year. Then back to our norm.
Recently, meaning the last couple of years, I have got depressed. Not just from the lack of sex, but from life in general.
I'm fat again. I'm drinking too much alcohol as a coping mechanism. I know I shouldn't.
What makes things worse now is the fact that this year we have had sex about 3 times and I have turned it down when asked if I wanted it about that many. I have never turned it down until this year. She hasn't been outworld upset about it at least. Just "Oh okay, it has been a while and I thought you might want it." The last time we had sex, I was unable to finish. That has never happened. I have always had to try to speed things up as she doesn't like for sex to last very long, but nothing was working. I tried to actually FAKE it! that didn't work. She called me on it. She did say, "Are you not attracted to me anymore?" I am super attracted to my wife. I fantasize about her many times a day. I told her I most certainly was attracted to her, but I was not feeling myself. She seemed okay with that.
I am broken.
What do I do now?
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 21, 2019 17:14:57 GMT -5
You can’t change your wife. You’ve had more than 20 years of seeing the kind of person she is when it comes to sexual intimacy. You need to decide whether having a sexually incompatible wife is a deal breaker for you or whether you wish to continue living with little or no sex.
Continuing to post and read here will help you decide what to do. Individual therapy can help, too. I don’t suggest joint counseling as it won’t make your wife welcome physical intimacy with you. She is who she is.
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Post by baza on Jul 21, 2019 18:12:40 GMT -5
If you have issues Brother sunnysean (and who doesn't), then that's the place to start .... sorting your own shit out. Perhaps with a skilled therapist, counsellor, mentor, life coach or similar. Keeping plugged in to this group can have value also. The goal would be to bring the best possible version of sunnysean to the table .... and that version of sunnysean will know "what (he) will do now". Be aware that this process of sorting your own shit out is no short term thing, and will throw up some very challenging questions, and take you way out of your comfort zone.
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 21, 2019 19:13:11 GMT -5
I have never turned it down until this year. She hasn't been outworld upset about it at least. Just "Oh okay, it has been a while and I thought you might want it." The last time we had sex, I was unable to finish. That has never happened. Welcome, sunnysean. A big part of the problem is visible in her reaction here. She doesn’t want it; she just thought it was time, for your benefit. She’s willing, but not wanting - that’s not exactly going to boost your self-esteem. It might be OK if all you want is physical sex, but it’s terribly hollow if you desire intimacy / connection / bonding. Unable to finish... it’s anxiety. Just wait until you can still get it up, but not for her - that’ll mess with your head. Been there, and I don’t have a fix. The problem with the constant rejection and infrequency is that she’s conditioned you that it’s wrong to view her sexually. You still do, but you’re forced to suppress your urges because she finds them offensive. You can’t be expected to throw a switch and suddenly be the opposite just because she decides it’s time. Human behavior is far more complex. My unqualified perspective... there’s a glimmer of hope because you know she’s still sexual, just not with you. It’s time for a really frank conversation. Not threatening divorce, but explaining that the lack of intimacy is not something you’re going to tolerate and it needs to change. You can go down the path of trying to talk it out in counseling (and there may indeed be some broken dynamic that could be repaired), but the holy grail will be getting her to re-engage sexually. More specifically, see if you can get her to be more open about using her toys with you present and letting you participate as a way of restoring some amount of sexuality between you. Take it as a learning opportunity, be humble, and ask her to educate you on what she enjoys and help you do that for her. Be patient and generous about giving oral. Bottom-line, try to recondition her to see you sexually. Now, this may all be horseshit for recommendation, no better than suggesting scented candles and flowers if you’re sexually dead to her. But I see a tiny potential in her continued sexuality if you can get it redirected back toward you. What do you think? Is there a prospect of her opening up and sharing her sexuality with you in the way she enjoys it? Do you have much to lose by trying to have that awkward conversation?
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Post by deadzone75 on Jul 21, 2019 22:09:38 GMT -5
What makes things worse now is the fact that this year we have had sex about 3 times and I have turned it down when asked if I wanted it about that many. I have never turned it down until this year. She hasn't been outworld upset about it at least. Just "Oh okay, it has been a while and I thought you might want it." The last time we had sex, I was unable to finish. That has never happened. I have always had to try to speed things up as she doesn't like for sex to last very long, but nothing was working. I agree with Drycreek. Usually the three times I have sex each year are initiated with my wife asking out of the blue if we are going to have sex that night, with all the enthusiasm of asking if we should have hamburgers for supper. This enrages me. I want sex all the time, but with someone who actually wants to have sex. I wouldn't even freak out about the fact that you couldn't finish. It doesn't mean you are broken, but it could mean that her indifference to sex is interfering with your performance. Personally, it's not uncommon for me to have to really concentrate to keep myself hard throughout sex, because all I can think about is that in my wife's "perfect world", we wouldn't even be having sex, and that when it's over, it will be another 5 months until I have sex again, give or take. And that leads to post-sex blues, which is super depressing--I waited 5 months...for that? Plus you say she wants you to hurry up...that's gotta mess with your head, too. Like, knowing you are on the clock. How are you supposed to enjoy yourself under those conditions?
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sunnysean
Junior Member
Posts: 59
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by sunnysean on Jul 22, 2019 13:39:25 GMT -5
Thanks, everyone for your words of wisdom and support.
DryCreek: "What do you think? Is there a prospect of her opening up and sharing her sexuality with you in the way she enjoys it? Do you have much to lose by trying to have that awkward conversation?"
When I ponder about it, I don't think I have a lot to lose. We have had the "talk" twice (Not about her toys or her self pleasuring). She never got upset with me for trying to have those conversations. The first time it went like this... she said "I just don't need it as much as you, I'm sorry I'm just not wired that way. I like it when we have it, but I don't want it very often." The second time went like this: "I'm sorry, I know you need it more than me. Just ask me, and I'll help you out." I didn't ask, but she helped me out that night, and it was different but nice. She seemed loving. She didn't ask me to hurry up, and it was one of the best orgasms I have ever had. But, she also didn't want anything in return and stopped me when I tried to reciprocate physically.
A few weeks went by, and I worked up the courage to ask for her help. I was looking forward to a repeat of the first experience. She didn't seem tired, and we had had a nice evening. We got into bed, and she wanted to watch some TV so I knew she wasn't sleepy yet. So I asked if she would help. She said "ok," and it was like she was unloading the dishwasher. No love, just a chore that she wasn't happy doing. With her reaction, I felt like I was abusing her, I felt dirty like I was doing something wrong. I have asked only a couple times since then with one, "not tonight I'm too tired" and another emptying the dishwasher reaction.
That said, she did take the last conversation to heart, I believe. Every few months, without warning, she will start "helping me" after we get in bed and say.."you need this." and be very loving. If I ever try to return the favor, she stops me in a gentle but firm way.
So DryCreek, I may need to have that conversation. I just need how to start it without sounding like a creep. "Hey, I've heard you pleasuring yourself a lot over the years, want me to help you out?" Perhaps I need to catch her in the act?
Deadzone75: " And that leads to post-sex blues, which is super depressing--I waited 5 months...for that?"
Wow, you hit the nail on the head. I think that's why I've turned down sex this year when I think about it. I am already depressed about not having it often, but sometimes that post-sex blues is worse than not having it. Speculating how many weeks or months it's going to be until the next time is rough. I think it would be easier to live with if I knew that every 90 days we would fool around some.
You are right about hurrying up. Being "on the clock" is a double edge sword. I have two clocks to look at. The first clock is trying to finish before she is totally done. She has multiples. Usually, she has about 6-8. She always wants me to finish before the final few. We've never talked about it, but I think it is a turn on for her when I finish, and that makes the last ones better for her. If she has already had 4-5, and I haven't finished, I start hearing, "Are you close," "Are you almost done?", "What can I do to help?". Her saying those things makes it even worse. Then the real clock is ticking. This may not be true, but it seems that after that point, the longer I take, the longer it will be until the next time we have sex.
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Post by isthisit on Jul 22, 2019 14:19:52 GMT -5
Plus you say she wants you to hurry up...that's gotta mess with your head, too. Like, knowing you are on the clock. How are you supposed to enjoy yourself under those conditions? Good grief. Seriously women actually ask you to hurry up during the deed? I did not know that was a thing. I am speechless at the insensitivity. I am sorry guys.
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Post by flashjohn on Jul 22, 2019 14:46:50 GMT -5
You are right about hurrying up. Being "on the clock" is a double edge sword. I have two clocks to look at. The first clock is trying to finish before she is totally done. She has multiples. Usually, she has about 6-8. She always wants me to finish before the final few. We've never talked about it, but I think it is a turn on for her when I finish, and that makes the last ones better for her. If she has already had 4-5, and I haven't finished, I start hearing, "Are you close," "Are you almost done?", "What can I do to help?". Her saying those things makes it even worse. Then the real clock is ticking. This may not be true, but it seems that after that point, the longer I take, the longer it will be until the next time we have sex. Well, I don't see how anyone could be attracted to someone who acts like that. My ExRefuser, back when we actually had sex, would insist that I make her orgasm, then I got a time limit. I did my best with the situation. However, now that i am away from her and in a healthy marriage, I don't see how or why I accepted that kind of treatment. The fact that she masturbates while only fucking you a few times per year, and then tells you to hurry after you have made her cum several times tells me she is very selfish and does not love you at all.
I am saying this because my ExRefuser treated me this way as well. So what is keeping you in the marriage?
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 22, 2019 15:40:28 GMT -5
Plus you say she wants you to hurry up...that's gotta mess with your head, too. Like, knowing you are on the clock. How are you supposed to enjoy yourself under those conditions? Good grief. Seriously women actually ask you to hurry up during the deed? I did not know that was a thing. I am speechless at the insensitivity. I am sorry guys. It might genuinely be asked in the spirit of “Is what we’re doing working for you?”, but to a guy who’s worried about performing “Are you close?” easily gets heard as “Are you about done?”. And that turns the anxiety up to 11, and can even kill the arousal. Human psychology is complex. sunnysean, your situation is certainly frustrating as hell, but the good news is that it sounds far from dead. You’re good to be taking action now and not after things have gotten strained between you. Here’s my unqualified armchair advice... Don’t mention that you’ve heard her masturbating - that’ll only make her awkward and defensive. Instead, consider an approach like “I want sex to be a better, more positive experience for both of us - something that brings us closer instead of being an obstacle. As part of that, I’d like to learn more about what you enjoy, and see if they are things that I can do for you as well.” I.e., bring your toys to the bedroom, show me what you like, and let’s play with no expectations for yourself. Now, here’s the hard part... you’ll be asking her to be incredibly vulnerable - for that to happen, she’s likely to need to feel extremely safe and trusting with you. That may be a whole effort unto itself that needs to happen first. Then, as trite as it seems, you’ll probably need to schedule time for it, a la tonight or this weekend. It’ll take a while before she becomes more comfortable being spontaneous. I’m not suggesting this needs to become the new dynamic, but you’re playing the long game here. The idea being to get her more comfortable doing what she enjoys when you’re being intimate, and then work toward a more mutual experience. And again... this might be completely irrelevant advice based on a few details. You’ll have to gauge it for yourself based on what you know about your wife’s personality.
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sunnysean
Junior Member
Posts: 59
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by sunnysean on Jul 22, 2019 15:45:20 GMT -5
Flashjohn: "So what is keeping you in the marriage?"
Good question.
The short answer is that I love her, and we are best friends.
Outside the bedroom, we have a storybook marriage. I could make you throw up with all the good things about our marriage. She is supportive of everything I do (outside the bedroom), she is a great mother, we can talk about anything and everything (as long as it doesn't have to do with our sex life or physical affection between us). And, we genuinely want to spend time together.
I think that's what is so hard. If I could dial down my sex drive to a 2 on a scale of 1-10, I think I would be just fine. But my sex drive is a solid 8, and it used to be a solid 9 until recently.
All her actions outside the bedroom says to me that she loves me. We dated many years before we got married. We just didn't have sex, that was a choice that both of us made. We thought that waiting for marriage was the best thing to do. I don't know if that was a mistake or not. I suppose it was. If we had, perhaps we would have understood that our libidos didn't come close to matching. That said, I can't imagine a better match than her and I when it comes to a relationship outside the bedroom.
I think you are right about the selfishness, but I think that selfishness is mostly confined in the sexual relationship. I don't know where that comes from. She is a giving person when it doesn't come to sex.
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Post by deadzone75 on Jul 22, 2019 16:36:02 GMT -5
Flashjohn: "So what is keeping you in the marriage?"Good question. The short answer is that I love her, and we are best friends. Outside the bedroom, we have a storybook marriage. I could make you throw up with all the good things about our marriage. She is supportive of everything I do (outside the bedroom), she is a great mother, we can talk about anything and everything (as long as it doesn't have to do with our sex life or physical affection between us). And, we genuinely want to spend time together. I think that's what is so hard. If I could dial down my sex drive to a 2 on a scale of 1-10, I think I would be just fine. But my sex drive is a solid 8, and it used to be a solid 9 until recently. All her actions outside the bedroom says to me that she loves me. We dated many years before we got married. We just didn't have sex, that was a choice that both of us made. We thought that waiting for marriage was the best thing to do. I don't know if that was a mistake or not. I suppose it was. If we had, perhaps we would have understood that our libidos didn't come close to matching. That said, I can't imagine a better match than her and I when it comes to a relationship outside the bedroom. I think you are right about the selfishness, but I think that selfishness is mostly confined in the sexual relationship. I don't know where that comes from. She is a giving person when it doesn't come to sex. You shouldn't have to dial down your sex drive to a 2 if it is an 8. It would be selfish of her to expect that of you. Sex is supposed to be part of the deal, and you should never feel bad about having a high sex drive. The way I see it, even though a SM is hell, there will come a day for us all when we will be reduced to a 2 on that sex drive scale (or lower), and I am relieved that I am still able to be horny all the time. But it does sound like there is some hope. She gets off 6-8 times is a single session? My wife doesn't get off that many times in a year (at least not in my presence). It definitely sounds like she is selfish. Or at best unaware of how insensitive she's being. There are ways she could relay her desires during sex, like seductively telling you she is ready for you to come, or some other sexy or dirty line. Anything besides "you about done?"
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okiedude
Junior Member
Learning to live with my Situation.
Posts: 87
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by okiedude on Jul 22, 2019 19:34:26 GMT -5
sunnysean Read read read. The posts here will mirror your issues. The hardest reply you get is from baza "If you have issues Brother sunnysean (and who doesn't), then that's the place to start .... sorting your own shit out." Words of wisdom! - Sort your own shit out. At the end of all the information you gleam here the problem is you..... You only have control over yourself. Try counseling try anything but you have to find the peace in yourself.... You will not change her. search for the MAP (Male Action Plan) read larry101 posts. I have tried to change myself for our full 20 years, 18 of which have been low sex to no sex. It doesn't get better unless you change you. Work out, find things that you enjoy and do it. Become the strong person you are. I am trying and so far nothing from her but I feel better about me....
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 22, 2019 19:51:59 GMT -5
"...unable to finish."
That should not be a problem. One thing that woke me to the hopelessness of my predicament was when I figured out how to build my stamina. Instead of being appreciative, my wife was annoyed. She could fake interest for three minutes, but not for twenty, and I would wear her out in an hour.
While women do like it when we cum, they don't want us to cum too soon. If you can keep going, some day a woman will want to send your ex a thank you card for setting you free for her to have.
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timedelay
Full Member
Posts: 153
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by timedelay on Jul 23, 2019 5:43:45 GMT -5
sunnysean Hi and welcome (even though I know you don't want to be here). I empathise with how you have been feeling and can see how the advice you've already been given might be helpful but I'm new to ILIASM and have a different take on how you describe your wife. I know we all bring our own baggage to discussions but your wife sounds too much like my husband for me to ignore. You know that quote by Maya Angelou that goes along the lines of 'believe them when they tell you the first time who they are'? You told us that when you raised the topic of your infrequent sex your wife told you clearly: "I just don't need it as much as you, I'm sorry I'm just not wired that way. I like it when we have it, but I don't want it very often." The second time went like this: "I'm sorry, I know you need it more than me. Just ask me, and I'll help you out." If you haven't already, go and look at a website called AVEN. It won't make you feel any better but might help a small bit in figuring out what your wife was really telling you when she said she's just not wired that way (while preferring to masturbate alone, like my H). I'm sorry that I can't offer you hope that your marriage will get better. The best advice I've received myself since finding these forums is the pretty harsh recommendation to give up hope things will change. Where there is a clear sexual mismatch, things cannot get better, not for the sexual person anyway. Maybe get that bit sorted out first, whether this is a sexuality issue or not. You need to tell her that you are suffering from the lack of physical closeness and need to have a long and honest conversation before any more time goes by. Don't accept attempts to procrastinate on this. Don't give up when it gets hard and you both feel pain. You already know what the pain of loneliness and self loathing is. You've come this far despite all that. I've been literally eating my feelings for years too, I get it. Like Baza says, we need to sort our own shit out. Tell her how much you love her but don't shy away from speaking YOUR truth. If she struggles to get the extent of your needs (beyond the act of sex) try using an analogy. Another more experienced member here gave me this tip to try when talking with my husband: “Can you imagine being incredibly hungry, seeing a banquet laid out in your dining room, but you’re not allowed to touch it? Every evening - there it is. Savory roast chicken, skin perfectly crisp and brown. Mounds of buttery mashed potatoes. You gaze at it, salivating. But can’t touch. All of your favorite foods within arm’s reach but off limits." And then make the connection. “This is what I live with everyday. I’m starving for physical touch. I have skin hunger. I am malnourished when it comes to physical intimacy and a part of me is wasting away.” The next step would be your proposal for a solution." (credit for that goes to elynne) You can adapt the analogy to whatever your wife identifies best with. My husbands reaction when I started with, imagine if your favourite food was sitting there..was to say "oh, you mean like a big juicy steak.." :-) Errrm, YUP!
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Post by csl on Jul 23, 2019 6:50:11 GMT -5
When I ponder about it, I don't think I have a lot to lose. We have had the "talk" twice (Not about her toys or her self pleasuring). She never got upset with me for trying to have those conversations. The first time it went like this... she said "I just don't need it as much as you, I'm sorry I'm just not wired that way. I like it when we have it, but I don't want it very often." The second time went like this: "I'm sorry, I know you need it more than me. Just ask me, and I'll help you out." I didn't ask, but she helped me out that night, and it was different but nice. She seemed loving. She didn't ask me to hurry up, and it was one of the best orgasms I have ever had. But, she also didn't want anything in return and stopped me when I tried to reciprocate physically. A few weeks went by, and I worked up the courage to ask for her help. I was looking forward to a repeat of the first experience. She didn't seem tired, and we had had a nice evening. We got into bed, and she wanted to watch some TV so I knew she wasn't sleepy yet. So I asked if she would help. She said "ok," and it was like she was unloading the dishwasher. No love, just a chore that she wasn't happy doing. With her reaction, I felt like I was abusing her, I felt dirty like I was doing something wrong. I have asked only a couple times since then with one, "not tonight I'm too tired" and another emptying the dishwasher reaction. That said, she did take the last conversation to heart, I believe. Every few months, without warning, she will start "helping me" after we get in bed and say.."you need this." and be very loving. If I ever try to return the favor, she stops me in a gentle but firm way. Son, if you have a good-willed wife who is a willing partner in bed, you don't have a problem. If you don't ask/initiate, you have an issue, not her. One might be that you think your wife has to be slavering for you to have sex. I'm sorry, but it doesn't have to be that women's sexual desire and arousal has to mirror ours. Read this article that demonstrated that fact: www.the-generous-husband.com/2017/04/29/is-her-sexual-desire-spontaneous-or-triggered/If you have issues on initiating, one way to get around that is to come to an agreement on the scheduling of sex. Here is an article that I wrote several years ago: curmudgeonlylibrarian.wordpress.com/2015/05/28/refused-a-new-tool-to-help-part-2/Someone used the Maya Angelou line about believing someone the first time they tell you about themselves. Well, believe your wife. If she says that she is willing to have sex on your say-so, then act on that. Don't wait for months, ask. If she is willing, then you have your answer.
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