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Post by deadzone75 on Mar 16, 2019 21:13:04 GMT -5
Well, I might be going off on a tangent here and I want to preface this by stating it is my opinion. I fully expect some dialogue about how I might be wrong. I’m preparing myself!😬 Here goes: I don’t believe that most people who are in a SM intentionally cheat. I think they fall into it because they’ve met someone that appeals to them in a way that makes it very difficult to resist. Let’s face it- we are all craving intimacy and it would be incredibly difficult to resist the pull of someone who attracts us. To me, the question of whether or not cheating is a good thing is a moot point. It’s more of a justification for our actions. If we are going to cheat, we need to walk into it with our eyes wide open knowing that any one of the situations baza described could happen and be prepared for it. For me- I’m craving sex and intimacy but I’m not going to seek out opportunities to outsource. On the other hand, if someone comes along who tempts me beyond my ability to resist, I’m likely going to go for it. It is important to be cognizant of the risks and be prepared for the fallout. Whether or not it ends up being a good thing can only be judged after the fact. I agree 100%. I outsourced once, with my boss at the time. She advanced on me (at work), and the scenario I knew I would never be able to resist was unfolding in front of me. I never wanted to look elsewhere; I meant every word of my vows. But years into my SM, I knew that if I was approached by someone attractive, by someone who actually showed interest in me...real, genuine yearning toward me, it would only lead down one path. It happened many times. After, I felt guilt only at times. When the weight of what I had done would start to haunt me, my anger at my SM would justify my actions, right or wrong. I look back now, and it is what it is. I'm not proud of it. I'm still in my SM, and maybe I deserve it for my actions. And that outsourcing from years ago still stands as the last time I truly felt desired.
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Post by sadkat on Mar 16, 2019 21:36:41 GMT -5
deadzone75- I also outsourced years ago and felt the same way you did. It was kind of like paying penance. You know what that got me? Absolutely nothing- I’m now older than I want to be, sexually frustrated, unhappy, and wondering why in the hell I stayed so long? I’m not doing it anymore. I’m slowly working my way out of this wasteland of a marriage I find myself in. And if I happen to have outsourced sex before the divorce is finalized, there will be no more guilt- I’ve paid a high enough price already.
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Post by baza on Mar 16, 2019 21:55:56 GMT -5
Interesting how this thread has developed.
I think it is pretty 'easy' to hold a value on a matter when it is 'theoretical'. That is to say not a matter you are actually in the middle of.
It is pretty easy to hold a value and say something like - "Oh I'd never cheat" - if you are not actually being presented with such an opportunity.
And, hanging on to values that are not in your own longer term best interests ain't necessarily so great either. For example, if you take a position and say - "Oh I'd never divorce" - then find yourself immersed in an intractable ILIASM shithole, then that value is - arguably - working against your future happiness, not adding to it.
I reckon that any 'absolute' thinking (ie adopting a core value that you would "never" cheat or divorce or whatever) is more likely to hinder your future than help it.
I think it is unwise to adopt life values based on taking the moral highground. I know that in my life I have had values that were moralistic highground positions, that "I would never cheat or divorce".
As it turns out, I've done both, and I regret neither. And I am one happy bloke these days, in the relationship of my life. Had I held fast to those values that were not serving me well back in the day I'd likely still be in my ILIASM deal, and still desperately unhappy.
I would add, that challenging ones values, particularly those values you have had for years is some really hard and challenging work. It is extraordinarily uncomfortable to come to a realization that a value you have held for ages may be completely wrong.
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Post by deadzone75 on Mar 16, 2019 22:13:49 GMT -5
deadzone75 - I also outsourced years ago and felt the same way you did. It was kind of like paying penance. You know what that got me? Absolutely nothing- I’m now older than I want to be, sexually frustrated, unhappy, and wondering why in the hell I stayed so long? I’m not doing it anymore. I’m slowly working my way out of this wasteland of a marriage I find myself in. And if I happen to have outsourced sex before the divorce is finalized, there will be no more guilt- I’ve paid a high enough price already. Indeed you have. You were betrayed first..that's how I see it.
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Post by lessingham on Mar 17, 2019 4:46:39 GMT -5
This morning the fog of frustration is so bad I can hardly breathe. I would cheat, buy sex, heck even hump a pretty lamp post!!!!!
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Post by choosinghappy on Mar 17, 2019 7:02:59 GMT -5
Interesting how this thread has developed. I think it is pretty 'easy' to hold a value on a matter when it is 'theoretical'. That is to say not a matter you are actually in the middle of. It is pretty easy to hold a value and say something like - "Oh I'd never cheat" - if you are not actually being presented with such an opportunity. And, hanging on to values that are not in your own longer term best interests ain't necessarily so great either. For example, if you take a position and say - "Oh I'd never divorce" - then find yourself immersed in an intractable ILIASM shithole, then that value is - arguably - working against your future happiness, not adding to it. I reckon that any 'absolute' thinking (ie adopting a core value that you would "never" cheat or divorce or whatever) is more likely to hinder your future than help it. I think it is unwise to adopt life values based on taking the moral highground. I know that in my life I have had values that were moralistic highground positions, that "I would never cheat or divorce". As it turns out, I've done both, and I regret neither. And I am one happy bloke these days, in the relationship of my life. Had I held fast to those values that were not serving me well back in the day I'd likely still be in my ILIASM deal, and still desperately unhappy. I would add, that challenging ones values, particularly those values you have had for years is some really hard and challenging work. It is extraordinarily uncomfortable to come to a realization that a value you have held for ages may be completely wrong. I could not love this post any more. And it is right in line with that new Mark Manson article posted by WindSister. I also used to think to myself: “I would never cheat” and I had disdain for anyone who did. And then I found myself in this SM and had to challenge that value. I did cheat. Many times in fact, during the last year of my marriage. And I don’t regret one of them. I firmly believe it saved me- my self esteem, my confidence, my small semblance of self that was still hanging in there, not yet crushed by my SM. I don’t think I would have rediscovered myself and made the choice to leave my unhappy marriage had I not had those experiences. I don’t find that I have made excuses to justify my actions. My actions just are what they are. I still think cheating is “wrong” and I would never want to do it in another relationship. But I can forgive myself for it during my old situation. And I’m grateful that that’s the path my life took because it landed me in a much happier place now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 7:53:21 GMT -5
Having outsourced on many occasions I can say this .... 1. I never thought I ever would cheat. 2. I did not deliberately set out to cheat or plan to cheat to 'fix' my SM 3. My desire for affection and physical attention got the best of me and, more likely, it was desire to be wanted that drove me more than the need for actual sex, though that was insanely real and present, too. 4. Once I did it, it got easier. 5. Deeper into I got, it has proven 'educational' of sorts for me in that I can see what I am needing more clearly, thus seeing what is lacking in my SM, but also I see what IS present in my marriage that I would not have with a fuck buddy. Also, what I do have now that I may not be able to recreate in any new relationship. In other words, as Baza has said, there is IMO some good that come of it. It is absolutely forcing me to press the issue of my SM with my Husband and changes have happened - some by him, many more in me.
I have one very trusted outsource partner who takes care of me 100% absolutely every single time, but I've learned through self-reflection that this is not someone I could have a relationship with. That makes it easier - sort of. I don't 'go there' very often anymore as I am trying to focus on my marriage and my husband continues to make steps in the right direction. That said, knowing it's an option when I'm at my wits end and need to be cared for has proven beneficial to me. It's not something I'm proud of and not something I share with anyone (other than here and 1 trusted friend) but it is serving two vital purposes: 1. me getting my needs met; and 2. helping me learn more about me and what I want and need. I feel I "should" feel guilty, but in truth, I don't think I do. Maybe it will all come to bite me in the ass and come crashing down on me. Maybe it will be the piece that sets me free finally. As always, time will tell.
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Post by ironhamster on Mar 17, 2019 8:01:02 GMT -5
I was a pretty unlikely person to outsource, but, we all have our limits. I have no regrets. My girlfriend also outsourced multiple times, and also has no regrets. One critique I hear about "cheaters" is that they cannot be trusted. I disagree with that. We have developed an extremely high level of trust with each other. Being able to be 100% open with each other about our thoughts and desires is very freeing.
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 17, 2019 8:30:56 GMT -5
Lessingham said: “This morning the fog of frustration is so bad I can hardly breathe. I would cheat, buy sex, heck even hump a pretty lamp post!!!!”
But you aren’t frustrated enough yet to divorce and move on....
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Post by sadkat on Mar 17, 2019 8:46:50 GMT -5
baza- I agree with choosinghappy. I can’t like your post enough. We do start out with specific values that we plan to live by. We marry with full intentions of never cheating or leaving. We meet every challenge with conviction and, when we break a strongly held value, we feel incredibly guilty. The thing is, even though I’ve outsourced, these values remain incredibly important to me. I haven’t re-evaluated them but I have come to realize that I can’t blindly hold on to them when my basic need for love and intimacy is being unmet. I’ve forgiven myself for those outsourced moments and am taking steps toward divorce. I know I’ve promised an update so I’ll resurrect my “baby steps” post shortly.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 17, 2019 10:49:32 GMT -5
I wanted to chime in about morals and values. Like so many others I believed in no cheating. I also convinced myself that I would wait until the divorce was over. ( telling myself- you made it this far, you are good at doing without. Hold out a little longer. Not knowing that my divorce would drag out for 2 years) Mostly ,so my now ex would not have that as her crutch to hold over my head until my final days.
Nevertheless, Had I been given an opportunity ( the right person who came onto me strongly with an understanding, giving, passionate attitude) I would have seen it as a healing opportunity that was meant to be. Also, as a gift to be told to only a discrete few that can benefit and understand from it.
A very STRONG justification -if you will- for me was reflecting on my wedding vows. To have and to hold, to love and to cherish. To honor and respect. Then to finally realize how all of those vows had been broken by my now ex in the name of 'refusing'.
That I was the one who had been cheated, all along.
And that I DESERVED to be with someone who will honor such a commitment, again.
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Post by solodriver on Mar 17, 2019 11:33:42 GMT -5
Interesting how this thread has developed. I think it is pretty 'easy' to hold a value on a matter when it is 'theoretical'. That is to say not a matter you are actually in the middle of. It is pretty easy to hold a value and say something like - "Oh I'd never cheat" - if you are not actually being presented with such an opportunity. And, hanging on to values that are not in your own longer term best interests ain't necessarily so great either. For example, if you take a position and say - "Oh I'd never divorce" - then find yourself immersed in an intractable ILIASM shithole, then that value is - arguably - working against your future happiness, not adding to it. I reckon that any 'absolute' thinking (ie adopting a core value that you would "never" cheat or divorce or whatever) is more likely to hinder your future than help it. I think it is unwise to adopt life values based on taking the moral highground. I know that in my life I have had values that were moralistic highground positions, that "I would never cheat or divorce". As it turns out, I've done both, and I regret neither. And I am one happy bloke these days, in the relationship of my life. Had I held fast to those values that were not serving me well back in the day I'd likely still be in my ILIASM deal, and still desperately unhappy. I would add, that challenging ones values, particularly those values you have had for years is some really hard and challenging work. It is extraordinarily uncomfortable to come to a realization that a value you have held for ages may be completely wrong. Yes I have had to come to terms with this idea.
I never thought I would cheat but if given an opportunity, I would. Because I'm so alone and starved for affection that I would take it if someone offered it to me without a doubt.
Same thing about divorce. I never thought I would initiate a divorce (my ex initiated the first one). But here I am, working on my exit plan, because I'm so unhappy and desire more for the rest of my life than being in a affectionless, sexless, non-romantic marriage for the rest of my life. It's horrible and I can't do it.
My mantra has become: I WON'T ever have my needs for sex, love, romance and being able to give that if I stay in this marriage I have HOPE for having those needs met if I leave and divorce.
And I'm working on trying not to feel like the bad guy that I will be accused of when I do leave. I feel I have given more and been more patient (and maybe more stupid) than a lot of people here have. But I realize there is more to life and I've seen from this board that I can still enjoy those things I so much want and need and want to give at my age. So I'm not ready to lay down and accept "this is it" from my refusing wife. I'm ready to live and enjoy what time I have left. I've wasted 20 years that I cannot get back and have missed out on so much.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 17, 2019 12:39:57 GMT -5
I wanted to chime in about morals and values. Like so many others I believed in no cheating. I also convinced myself that I would wait until the divorce was over. ( telling myself- you made it this far, you are good at doing without. Hold out a little longer. Not knowing that my divorce would drag out for 2 years) Mostly ,so my now ex would not have that as her crutch to hold over my head until my final days. Nevertheless, Had I been given an opportunity ( the right person who came onto me strongly with an understanding, giving, passionate attitude) I would have seen it as a healing opportunity that was meant to be. Also, as a gift to be told to only a discrete few that can benefit and understand from it. A very STRONG justification -if you will- for me was reflecting on my wedding vows. To have and to hold, to love and to cherish. To honor and respect. Then to finally realize how all of those vows had been broken by my now ex in the name of 'refusing'. That I was the one who had been cheated, all along. And that I DESERVED to be with someone who will honor such a commitment, again. I also convinced myself that my now ex "divorced" herself from me years ago. ( her choice) Just because it wasn't 'legally confirmed by a judge' doesn't have to happen for someone to move forward with what they were cheated out of during their marriage.
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Post by elkclan2 on Mar 17, 2019 13:20:08 GMT -5
There are some variables, such as the local divorce laws and courts, your spouse's attitude about your outsourcing weighed against their desire to hold the family together, and, your own outsourcing experience. Is it a one night thing or are there deep emotions involved, for instance. I disagree that your spouse takes the high ground. Refusing intimacy is no different morally than outsourcing. In fact, where we outsource, I will gladly argue that we still maintain the high ground because we did not break the deal first. You cannot have "forsaking all others" if there is no "to have and to hold." While I agree with your moral stance - and it's one that's convenient for me to take - I think a lot of people don't. I know at one point in my life - when I was much younger - I didn't. I think a lot of 'outsiders' would afford the 'cheated on' spouse the moral high ground. But as Esther Perel says - "the victim of the affair is not always the victim of the marriage" (or similar). I also disagree with the idea that people in SM who outsource do so because they 'fall into it'. I certainly didn't. I made a deliberate decision to do it. I can remember the moment very well - and then I set out to find an affair partner. And I did. I'm not saying that people don't fall into it sometimes - but I wonder how much of that is allowing ourselves to say "Oh it just happened..." when actually part of you wanted it to happen all along. For me, I'd have felt worse if it was a case of 'accidental cheating' - but everyone is different.
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Post by DryCreek on Mar 17, 2019 13:38:22 GMT -5
One critique I hear about "cheaters" is that they cannot be trusted. I disagree with that. We have developed an extremely high level of trust with each other. Being able to be 100% open with each other about our thoughts and desires is very freeing. Like so many things, it’s not so simple as it appears on the surface to an outsider, eh? “Cheating” is a broad spectrum, with people on one end who do treat sex casually and don’t value monogamy - this tends to be the stereotype. And yeah, expecting them to change their stripes may be unreasonable. At the other end are those who *are* monogamous, just not with their legal spouse. Somewhere in the middle are those who feel their marriage has been invalidated, so they have a “single” attitude while technically cheating. I think this community has hard-learned lessons about the value of communication and openness that you don’t often find in the wild, and that can lead to an incredibly close bond because not much lurks in the shadows. And it seems that, as a generalization, folks found their way here because they had been committed — to the point of breaking — and were even still trying to find solutions. I think that says a lot about character too.
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