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Post by baza on Mar 14, 2019 0:23:39 GMT -5
Disclaimer - I am not a fan of this option, mainly because it adds an extra layer of complication over an already complex situation and makes it harder to resolve.
However, on the evidence within this group it is undeniable that cheating is a game changer and probably the most potent agent for change there is. It can get an ILIASM situation out of the bog and get it rolling on to resolution. Perhaps a messy resolution sometimes, and/or an acrimonious resolution, but a resolution none the less.
There are cases in here where the ILIASM member goes down this path and finds - - it reveals just what a wasteland their primary relationship is - it gives a glimpse into what a normal adult relationship is - it provides a huge lift to ones ego - it results in some respite from the ILIASM situation in which to think clearly And any of these things are likely to give rise to a critical review of ones' present position, and that can lead to seriously considering vacating that position. It can get you thinking of things you hither-to thought unthinkable.
Of course there are cases in here where the ILIASM member went down this path, and things spun off at highly unexpected tangents that, short term, were not in the least bit enjoyable. Such as members who - - got caught (although surprisingly few do get caught) and the spouse flipped out and terminated the marriage - developed deep feelings for the cheating partner thus necessitating ending the primary relationship - got stuck with a head-case who wouldn't end the thing when the ILIASM member wanted to end it And any of these things (and more) can readily lead to the collapse of the primary relationship too.
But in the longer view of things, would these outcomes necessarily be a bad thing ?
Sometimes, the cheating can compel the ILIASM member to undertake some very difficult choices that they would otherwise not make.
So here's the proposition for the membership to kick the shit out of - "That if cheating leads to the ending of an ILIASM shithole, then it ain't necessarily such a bad thing"
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Post by Handy on Mar 14, 2019 1:48:00 GMT -5
"That if cheating leads to the ending of an ILIASM shithole, then it ain't necessarily such a bad thing"
There is a term "exit affair" that means people have affairs and want to be found out to speed up the divorce.
If you are compatible with the new partner, OK. The new partner is mostly reasonable, OK.
Love and romance requires a reasonable amount of $$$ so getting divorced and being broke (child support and spousal support) might not work out that well.
OTH some divorced people say the X spent too much money so being divorced with half of the former marital assets isn't all that bad.
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Post by lessingham on Mar 14, 2019 6:20:22 GMT -5
It is the thermo nuclear option. If your partner finds out they immediately occupy the moral high ground. Your reasons for straying become null and void and they get to dictate the divorce. Or even worse, the rest of your sorry life. In my humble opinion
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Post by mescaline on Mar 14, 2019 7:39:37 GMT -5
Age old question of "do the ends justify the means".
I don't know, I don't think it would work for me. But there's no way I'd judge others. My situation may change of course....!
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Post by DryCreek on Mar 14, 2019 7:56:01 GMT -5
Cheating certainly has the prospect of being a catalyst for change - whether because it opened eyes to reality and potential, or it simply lit the fuse by being caught.
In the latter case, it not only prompts change, but fuels it with emotional volatility. Whatever the terms of a split might have been, they’re not likely to be amicable anymore; more likely hostile and vindictive.
And then for some it becomes an enabler to stay, by taking the edge off a frustration. Some even manage to pull it off for years.
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Post by ironhamster on Mar 14, 2019 8:13:18 GMT -5
There are some variables, such as the local divorce laws and courts, your spouse's attitude about your outsourcing weighed against their desire to hold the family together, and, your own outsourcing experience. Is it a one night thing or are there deep emotions involved, for instance.
I disagree that your spouse takes the high ground. Refusing intimacy is no different morally than outsourcing. In fact, where we outsource, I will gladly argue that we still maintain the high ground because we did not break the deal first. You cannot have "forsaking all others" if there is no "to have and to hold."
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Post by worksforme2 on Mar 14, 2019 8:47:54 GMT -5
It's interesting to postulate about cheating. But you really don't know which way that ball is going to bounce until it hit's the floor. In one of our "talks" my X readily admitted that she had broken the marriage vows of love and cherish, and keeping herself only to me. But having admitted to being the one who broke the vows in no way impeded her stance that I should not look outside the marriage for sex. That was a deal breaker for her.
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 14, 2019 9:10:14 GMT -5
Lessingham: “t is the thermo nuclear option. If your partner finds out they immediately occupy the moral high ground. Your reasons for straying become null and void and they get to dictate the divorce. Or even worse, the rest of your sorry life. In my humble opinion”
Not true if: your local divorce laws are no fault; you’ve cultivated supportive friends and told them the truth about your marriage; you have developed the confidence to have your own set of morals, one in which a spouse who refuses sex is chesty you out of a real marriage.
If you have no friends and interests of your own, have enabled your spouse in presenting to the public a picture of a harmonious marriage; if you discount your own pain but constantly let your spouse mistreat you and if you’d let your misplaced guilt lead you to ignore your own rights in divorce court then what you predict would happen.
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Post by workingonit on Mar 14, 2019 9:25:52 GMT -5
It is not in my nature to outsource however I have considered it at times. I think there are good reasons to outsource, which is something I never thought I would say. But the unpredictability is, in my mind, NOT worth it.
I think people that want another sexual relationship going before ending their marriage need to take a look at the whole "does it stand on its own" thing in terms of making this change.
For example I have endometriosis. One common symptom is pain during sex. I have never had that symptom. However, I have not had sex in 9 years. Could that have changed? Maybe I will get divorced and finally have sex and find out that sex hurts me?! Maybe I should outsource and find out? If sex hurts maybe I should stay married and sexless?? (This could be the same argument as "maybe I will never find someone so I should stay").
But this is where it is SO important to ask if the decision to leave stands up on its own. My marriage is a lonely desert of no intimacy. While our friendship is nice I do not want to be in this marriage as it is. I would prefer to be alone and sexless than in this lonely marriage. The case to leave stands up EVEN IF I do not end up in a great sexual relationship.
So, IMO, do the assessment of the relationship and decide to stay or go based on the current relationship.
(FWIW, if you are curious, in my case I both seriously doubt sex will hurt (I do have toys afterall) and also believe that even if PIV sex hurts at times I can get pretty creative to both aleviate that and still have intimacy. I tell patients all the time that gynecological problems can be managed to not be a barrier to a good sex life and I 100% believe this!)
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Post by sadkat on Mar 14, 2019 11:58:00 GMT -5
Well, I might be going off on a tangent here and I want to preface this by stating it is my opinion. I fully expect some dialogue about how I might be wrong. I’m preparing myself!😬 Here goes: I don’t believe that most people who are in a SM intentionally cheat. I think they fall into it because they’ve met someone that appeals to them in a way that makes it very difficult to resist. Let’s face it- we are all craving intimacy and it would be incredibly difficult to resist the pull of someone who attracts us. To me, the question of whether or not cheating is a good thing is a moot point. It’s more of a justification for our actions. If we are going to cheat, we need to walk into it with our eyes wide open knowing that any one of the situations baza described could happen and be prepared for it. For me- I’m craving sex and intimacy but I’m not going to seek out opportunities to outsource. On the other hand, if someone comes along who tempts me beyond my ability to resist, I’m likely going to go for it. It is important to be cognizant of the risks and be prepared for the fallout. Whether or not it ends up being a good thing can only be judged after the fact.
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Post by worksforme2 on Mar 14, 2019 12:54:36 GMT -5
@sadcat let me ask you this. Are you of the mindset that you are available for intimacy should the opportunity present its self? And what would the criteria be for that to happen? Will you require a long courtship or would something like this work for you? A while back I was struck by a very nice looking married woman in a KMart of all places. I approached her and said "Hi, I could not stop myself from coming over and speaking to you. I find myself very attracted to you and I would like you know if you would be interested in having a cup of coffee or adult beverage with me"? She was surprised but we continued to talk and I expanded on how the way she walked(a long slow stride) and carried herself being what had caught my eye. More conversation followed for about 10 minutes. Finally she said her life as a full time working mom with 2 small children simply didn't allow for the time an affair would require. Then saying she wished she had more time but she really had to go, she walked away.
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Post by sadkat on Mar 14, 2019 15:45:16 GMT -5
worksforme2: I have trust issues- for many reasons. I would not be available for sex with just anyone. I’d have to get to know them and trust them before I could take it further. Had you approached me as you did the woman in K-Mart, I would have been very wary and escaped as soon as I could politely do so. Kudos to you for having the courage to approach a woman you found yourself attracted to!
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 14, 2019 16:49:45 GMT -5
I think that most women would be wary of going off with a strange man who made a pass at them as the women were going about their business. Women have ended up raped or dead who accepted such invitations. Many serial killers were trustworthy appearing people. I’d have been creeped out if a man approached me and asked me out while I was grocery shopping. A man hoping to have an affair would be better off making advances to a woman who either is on an affair site or is someone he knows.
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Post by DryCreek on Mar 15, 2019 0:38:38 GMT -5
Everyone’s unique in where they draw the line, how well they capsulize, etc.
I’ve known guys for whom sex is just a physical act of pleasure, and a one-nighter or paid help fit the bill just fine. Good for them, as long as an affair partner is equally detached emotionally.
Life has shown me that “The show ain’t over ‘til the fat lady sings”, which is tough when emotions get involved. Life’s unpredictable, as we’ve seen with some prospective recoveries lately. The only way to keep from dragging someone through an emotional roller coaster is to wait until the ride is actually over.
That’s not easy when there’s sexual tension. But the emotional side isn’t a spigot you can just turn off, so care is due when turning it on. It’s the messy part that’s also the amazing part. Well, at least it’s one of the messy/amazing parts...
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Post by lessingham on Mar 15, 2019 3:38:29 GMT -5
I would love to feel a coup de feu and have it returned.
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