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Post by smith227 on Jan 24, 2019 10:19:56 GMT -5
I’m so apathetic at this point I don’t even try to hide it. Last night he made a joke about anal sex bc he knows that’s something I don’t do, so he clings to it bc he knows it won’t happen. Except last night I told him, I wasn’t concerned about having anal bc we don’t even touch casually. And he’s be far more likely to stick his dick in one of his precious cats asshole, bc he actually makes it a priority to make sure to give them affection every day. He didn’t like that, but what am I gonna lose by saying anything at this point? A loving, sexual marriage? Turns out I never had that to begin with.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 24, 2019 10:48:54 GMT -5
I told my adult children about my sexless marriage, and it evoked empathy from them. They were hostile at first towards me for leaving and "being the bad guy". This lasted several months. Then I sat them down and told them The Story of My Marriage. After that, they stopped speaking to their father altogether.
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Post by csl on Jan 24, 2019 12:55:02 GMT -5
First off, thank you to EVERYONE who posted. I truly appreciate the advice and support. I'll try to cover all my responses with a single post. apathetic - I must agree with Handy - if you want a chance at fixing your sm issues, you must be willing to leave the marriage. Your wife must see that a marriage void of intimacy is a deal breaker for you. Understood. And to add what Handy wrote: "unless you are determined to either improve or end the marriage and with their full cooperation on the intimacy part and without their cooperation on the ending the relationship part." I'm determined to fix things. Not so willing to leave. However, a willingness to leave may be possible if I don't have full cooperation on the fixing part. Also know that, for me, "fixing" may simply be a definitive answer - that she is "asexual" and will not change. Or that she simply doesn't want sex with me and has decided that isn't a problem. At least having a definitive answer of sorts will allow me to make a decision on how to proceed. Then I look at the story noted by Handy and I wonder. The couple goes from a SM to 2x/week. In my mind, using an ultimatum to cause such a major change in behavior raises questions. I get that the story is an exception rather than the rule. I also understand that such drastic change is even more rare. My point is that the change in behavior is easy to understand, but I wonder if a true change in mindset is also there. In other words, the sex is easy to fake, but not the desire/intimacy. That's a reason I have always avoided the "ultimatum" path. Call me naive, but I want it to be something done out of desire, not obligation or coercion. ......... Ultimatums.... I am known on my blog for several mantras, one of which is even shortened to an abbreviation: IYADWYADYAGWYAG "It you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got." Or to use another aphorism, as long as the tolerable remains tolerable, you will tolerate it. It is only when it becomes intolerable that you won't tolerate it any longer. I see the word "ultimatum" as merely a negative way of describing a very positive action, which is setting proper boundaries.
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Post by Handy on Jan 24, 2019 16:08:13 GMT -5
CSL it isn't so much the ultimatum as making a big plan and following through with the plan. Of course you have to invite your partner to coordinate things in the plan. If they won't wor with you and you work with them, then you know what to expect in the future.
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Post by apathetic on Jan 25, 2019 1:26:45 GMT -5
This is based on my - coming up 10 years - reading on this group and its' predecessor EP ILIASM and from my own 3 decade ILIASM deal I left in 2009....just to give you some context Brother apathetic . Your chances of success in this "last try" are awful, irrespective of what tactics you may use. I don't agree, but that is only because I have a different definition of "success" in this endeavor. I'm just look for a resolution. Coming here and posting was a big step for me. I think I may have reached the point where I not only know something has to change, but and ready to do really something about it. Exactly. It doesn't make sense, even after all this, to unilaterally decide it's over and walk away. Go all in and make one last effort. If it doesn't work then, yes, it will tell me what I need to know. Understood. That's the scary part. I know how I would like it to play out but also understand how it probably will play out. It's coming to terms with the likely reality that makes it difficult. As everyone has been noting, there are only three fallback positions: 1. Outsource 2.Live with it 3. End it # 1 is off the table for me. I'm to the point where I can't see #2 as a viable option. I'm starting to understand how #3 has to be on the table. I get it - it's just going to take a bit until it fully sinks in. One other thing. In your response options, there is one other possibility. In my situation, a likely one. She shuts down, cries, shows tremendous remorse but offers no response, reason or solution. You could call that "ignore my pitch" but it is a difficult tactic to work with. What I am trying to do is create a "pitch" that avoids that. I would be happy with any of the three responses you listed - at least those are responses. Tell me to get lost (ignore pitch) because that's how it's going to be. Lie to me and say you will change, then don't. I can deal with that. At least I know where things stand. Yet another option is a variant of your #3 response. Fully embrace the concept by doing what she "has to" to keep the marriage in tact. Going through the motions to appease me. She's doing something she doesn't want to and I feel horrible about it. Then I'm really the bad guy for leaving - she did her "part," but I didn't do mine. Just playing out the different scenarios in my mind.
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Post by apathetic on Jan 25, 2019 1:32:56 GMT -5
I told my adult children about my sexless marriage, and it evoked empathy from them. They were hostile at first towards me for leaving and "being the bad guy". This lasted several months. Then I sat them down and told them The Story of My Marriage. After that, they stopped speaking to their father altogether. You had me until the last sentence. I would never want to create a situation where either me or my wife was the bad guy. Unfortunately, I truly believe that a divorce would need to have a bad guy in our case. It's scary. I don't think either of us could deal with being estranged from our kids.
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Post by apathetic on Jan 25, 2019 1:42:42 GMT -5
Ultimatums.... I am known on my blog for several mantras, one of which is even shortened to an abbreviation: IYADWYADYAGWYAG "It you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got." Or to use another aphorism, as long as the tolerable remains tolerable, you will tolerate it. It is only when it becomes intolerable that you won't tolerate it any longer. I see the word "ultimatum" as merely a negative way of describing a very positive action, which is setting proper boundaries. I'll agree 100% with your mantra and aphorism. I don't feel either suggests the necessity for an ultimatum... just a different approach. tactic or strategy. "Have regular sex with me or I'm going to leave you" - that may work with some people. Others may require a more subtle phrasing. Others may have a hostile reaction and eliminate the possibility for a favorable solution (even if the solution is an _amicable_ divorce). What worries me most about such an ultimatum (however phrased) is the possibility of creating a "sex under duress" situation. I'm not necessarily discounting such an approach. I'm simply want to make sure I don't create an unwilling partner or a hostile situation that benefits neither of us. I'm not sure I can see an ultimatum as a positive thing. It is a threat, which is by nature a hostile action.
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Post by Handy on Jan 25, 2019 2:33:40 GMT -5
Apathetic
What worries me most about such an ultimatum (however phrased) is the possibility of creating a "sex under duress" situation.
I see you saying ultimatum. Young at Heart laid out a plan that he thought he could live with. He asked his W how she wanted the future to be by hashing it out in many many counseling sessions. He gave some and his W gave some. I call that "working it out" not an ultimatum necessarily. The closest thing to an ultimatum part was the counseling sessions because he knew he couldn't fix the marriage by himself. Very few people fix their relationship with out some serious help.
I don't think Mrs Young at Heart is performing "duty sex" or Young at heart would say something that would indicate the sex was subpar.
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Post by sadkat on Jan 25, 2019 10:32:42 GMT -5
I told my adult children about my sexless marriage, and it evoked empathy from them. They were hostile at first towards me for leaving and "being the bad guy". This lasted several months. Then I sat them down and told them The Story of My Marriage. After that, they stopped speaking to their father altogether. You had me until the last sentence. I would never want to create a situation where either me or my wife was the bad guy. Unfortunately, I truly believe that a divorce would need to have a bad guy in our case. It's scary. I don't think either of us could deal with being estranged from our kids. apathetic- I don’t agree that a divorce needs to have a bad guy. There are many examples out there where divorced couples are very successfully coparenting. In my case, my goal is to leave my marriage but maintain a strong friendship with my h. I strongly believe that is possible if we both work to make that happen. I will eventually have a frank discussion with my child but refuse to cast a negative light on his father- whatever kind of husband he was to me does not negate the fact that he’s been a great father to my child. If my child gets angry with me because I initiated the separation, I’m convinced the anger will eventually fade as my child sees both parents being much happier apart than together. I know it might take time and patience but I’m convinced it will get better. It doesn’t matter how old our children are- we will still need to be coparents for major milestones in our children’s lives. I’ll do what it takes to make sure I’m present and supporting my child through every milestone.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 25, 2019 11:43:39 GMT -5
I agree that divorce doesn’t mean a partner is perceived as a bad guy. No fault divorce is helpful with this as is how the divorcing couple explain the divorce to others. “We grew apart” attaches no blame.
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Post by workingonit on Jan 25, 2019 12:53:44 GMT -5
On the dead bedrooms reddit there have been more than one refuser who has come in and said that reading that reddit mad ethem realize what they were doing to their refused partner. They decided to address their own low libidos and turned their marriages around. I think this is rare and of use only with particular issues. However, before you make a choice be sure you have been really clear with your partner that you are suffering. It is human nature to hide from uncomfortable truths.
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Post by apathetic on Jan 27, 2019 14:15:48 GMT -5
Apathetic
What worries me most about such an ultimatum (however phrased) is the possibility of creating a "sex under duress" situation. I see you saying ultimatum. Young at Heart laid out a plan that he thought he could live with. He asked his W how she wanted the future to be by hashing it out in many many counseling sessions. He gave some and his W gave some. I call that "working it out" not an ultimatum necessarily. The closest thing to an ultimatum part was the counseling sessions because he knew he couldn't fix the marriage by himself. Very few people fix their relationship with out some serious help. I don't think Mrs Young at Heart is performing "duty sex" or Young at heart would say something that would indicate the sex was subpar. Understood. I guess what I am saying it that I have a problem presenting the situation as a way to "work it out" rather than an ultimatum. It's all in the delivery. Right now, the only way I can see to phrase things is in the context of an ultimatum. I've looked into some of the resources suggested (still going through Young at Heart's stuff. The "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book doesn't seem to offer much for my situation). Counseling may be a valid option if there is honest agreement to work towards a solution. She would have to agree to it (obviously). I would also have overcome my deep distrust of the pseudo-science they call psychology. I'm willing if it provides a path. I'd like to explore options before using the nuclear one.
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Post by apathetic on Jan 27, 2019 14:18:05 GMT -5
You had me until the last sentence. I would never want to create a situation where either me or my wife was the bad guy. Unfortunately, I truly believe that a divorce would need to have a bad guy in our case. It's scary. I don't think either of us could deal with being estranged from our kids. apathetic - I don’t agree that a divorce needs to have a bad guy. I won't disagree. It just runs contrary to every divorce I have witnessed and contrary to how everyone in my family views divorce. It's an extreme psychological hurdle to overcome.
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Post by sadkat on Jan 27, 2019 15:45:07 GMT -5
apathetic- yes, it’s unfortunate that many divorces end up being so contentious. I think hurt feelings and pride contribute to a lot of it. What I’m trying to convey here is that you have to get your wife to understand how important this issue is to you. In order to do that, you must be willing to walk away from your marriage if she is not willing to work with you to improve your relationship. If she values the relationship and comes to the realization that you WILL walk- she may be motivated to work on the issues. If she doesn’t value the relationship, she will not be willing to work with you to fix the issues and you’ll then need to make the decision to leave. Do you really want to stay in a relationship your wife doesn’t value?? If instead you approach her with how unhappy you are in the relationship, that you want to work things out and you don’t want to leave the marriage, she will be less motivated. She simply has nothing to lose - she still has what she wants (the marriage) and she’ll convince herself that it’s just a phase you are going through and that you will adjust. You’ll continue to be in the same situation you are in today. Is that what you really want? It’s a rotten situation all around- none of us want to be here but yet here we are... I’m not going to rehash my story- you can read it for yourself. Suffice it to say that, after 20 years of no sex or intimacy, I’ve decided to leave my marriage. My husband is finally realizing I’m serious about it. Although his behavior has changed significantly, he has yet to touch me with any kind of love or affection. The idea of leaving hurts and I’m scared for the future but I have no choice but to follow through on my decision. He has shown me that I can’t get the affection, intimacy and sex I crave with him. I may not ever get it but at least I’ll have a chance if I’m not attached to someone who no longer desires me.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 27, 2019 19:01:23 GMT -5
I told my adult children about my sexless marriage, and it evoked empathy from them. They were hostile at first towards me for leaving and "being the bad guy". This lasted several months. Then I sat them down and told them The Story of My Marriage. After that, they stopped speaking to their father altogether. There's nothing wrong with being honest. Especially with your adult children. Their comes a time when they need to know the truth. It sets you free, and helps them to decide how their future relationships are going to be. Their have been several other posts on here from people whose adult children have been told the truth, and they respond, " we knew it, and wondered why you stayed together. We are glad you two are apart." Hopefully our adult children will make wise choices about how they continue to relate/communicate with their parents, and anyone else in their lives. Present and future. I remember the coke machine analogy. Telling my adult children how many years I spent putting quarters into an empty Coke machine - my now ex- and finally needing to walk away and find another Coke machine! This entire subjects reminds of something I am well aware of and read about often, how many parents do get alienated against their children due to the false manipulations of another parent. I would believe that it occurs more often in the ending of a SM. Since their can already be a high level of manipulative control that was already present and accepted for decades in the marriage.
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