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Post by apathetic on Jan 22, 2019 2:15:10 GMT -5
Been reading this forum on and off for a while. Decided to finally register. On one hand, it's great to see such a supportive community. On the other hand, it's depressing that there's enough of us to form a community. My story has been told here a thousand times. I could almost cut and paste from other other posts. Married 30+ years. Never had frequent sex and it's always been an issue. A few years ago it was down to once every 4-6 weeks. Then it dropped to 6-8 weeks. Past two years we have had one dry spell of 8+ months. Current dry spell is 4+ months with no end in sight. These days, the subject is never mentioned and the lack of sex is completely ignored. That somehow makes it worse for me since she seems very happy with not having to deal with it. In the beginning, I complained, argued about it. Somewhere along the line I decided to try and adjust my drive. I considered meds, but quickly dismissed that idea. We have talked about it a few times over the years (last conversation was 15+ years ago). The talking never went anywhere. No resolution. She did once say she mentioned a lack of drive to her doctor. Either the doctor never gave her an answer, or she simply decided not to share it with me. I've had some big emotional ups and downs on the topic. I can ignore things for so long and then I sink into a mood. A few years back I started looking for apartments and thinking about leaving. That was a fantasy. Leaving is not an option for many reasons. It would break me financially, while I would also lose my family. Even if I could explain the reasons to my (adult) kids, it would make me look even more the villain. Not to mention that I still love her (which only shows what a loser I have become). Finding someone else isn't an option for me. It would also instantly end the marriage on very bad terms. The reason I decided to finally post is to ask for some help. There are two items: First - how can I start a conversation about the topic? Sex is a topic that has strictly been off limits. It's an unspoken rule. We can't talk about the last time we did it, the next time we might do it, why we don't do it or anything on the subject. She shuts down and avoids the topic. After much reading, I wonder if she might be asexual. I can't imagine bringing _that_ up. She would not be happy. It's probably been 15 years since the SM topic was raised. The response is usually a simple agreement that I am right. No plan to change. No motivation to find a solution. I don't know where to start to have a meaningful conversation. Even if the answer is "this is who I am - take it or leave it" - at least it is an answer. Other issue is my current state of apathy. I have reached a point where I care less and less about everything. Not just the lack of sex. I feel numb. I used to get excited about things. Now, I barely care about anything. About the only emotion left is sadness. It's the opposite of who I used to be. I've become a negative and sarcastic person. Although my job is stressful, I feel like it's the SM that has finally caught up with me. It's frustrating that I have so much to be happy about, but can't feel it. I want to fix things, but am not even sure that's possible from my side of the relationship. From what I have ready here, it's even less likely for her to change. If the situation can't be fixed, how do I learn to not become someone I don't like? Pretty pathetic, huh? Would welcome any answers if you can find any questions in this rant.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 22, 2019 2:42:44 GMT -5
Welcome, apathetic. I am glad you have found your way here, and sorry you needed to find us. I wish I had a magic solution. I can tell you that I am very different in some ways from my former self. My former self would be very judgemental about who I am, now, but I am comfortable with all of that. I have no remorse for my decisions, and I take full responsibility for them. Perhaps instead of becoming someone you don't like, you can like the person you become.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 22, 2019 2:47:24 GMT -5
One solution that worked in one case was watching porn together, then discussing likes and dislikes. I do not know if your wife would be open to that. Mine would have taken great offense to that.
You can push, explaining that intimacy is important to you. Odds are you will just be pushing her to do things she does not want to do.
If outsourcing is not a solution, fantasy might be. I chatted, exchanged pics, and had cybersex before even considering an actual affair. It was a slippery slope I went down joyously.
Whatever your finances, you may want to protect what you have in the event you change your mind later. If sex is not important enough to risk financial ruin for you, maybe (preventing you from having) sex is not important enough for her to risk financial ruin either.
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Post by baza on Jan 22, 2019 3:27:44 GMT -5
I have no "answers" for you Brother apathetic . And if you have been a lurker on and off for quite a while, you have seen what your options are....but already you appear to dismiss leaving or cheating. Just out of interest, on what evidence (in regard to the leaving option) do you state - "It would break me financially" - is this based on solid legal advice you have sourced ? "I would also lose my family" - aren't your kids adults now, living their own lives independently ? Incidently I am NOT suggesting you ought charge for the exit. Am suggesting that ALL the options need to be fully and objectively explored, otherwise you cannot possibly come to an informed choice. In regard to this starting a conversation about your unhappiness, perhaps writing down what you want to say could have some value. You'd have a pretty good idea of the content you'd want to include. Maybe turn it into a script. Rehearse it. It would be smart NOT to mention anything that you are not actually prepared to do - nothing will shred your cred quicker than that. Historically in this group "the talk" has an appalling record of achieving results, so it would be unwise to have big expectations of this discussion.
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Post by apathetic on Jan 22, 2019 11:51:16 GMT -5
One solution that worked in one case was watching porn together, then discussing likes and dislikes. I do not know if your wife would be open to that. Mine would have taken great offense to that. You can push, explaining that intimacy is important to you. Odds are you will just be pushing her to do things she does not want to do. If outsourcing is not a solution, fantasy might be. I chatted, exchanged pics, and had cybersex before even considering an actual affair. It was a slippery slope I went down joyously. Whatever your finances, you may want to protect what you have in the event you change your mind later. If sex is not important enough to risk financial ruin for you, maybe (preventing you from having) sex is not important enough for her to risk financial ruin either. "Perhaps instead of becoming someone you don't like, you can like the person you become." Sage advice. Not sure how to implement it, but it is something I will certainly think on. Porn... out of the question. She is very offended by porn. "Disgusting" and "Sick" is how she would describe it. It is something for "perverts." Push... that's exactly how I have felt for years. Even when she agrees to sex, I feel like I am making her do something she really doesn't want to do. I feel I have found a trend in her being more "willing" to "allow me" to have sex with her. If there is some kind of event where she is worried I might not be in a "good mood" for (like some in-law event I am not particularly excited about) she is more agreeable. I feel like sex has become a method of control. Give me something to keep me in check. (Not that I ever did anything that would need to be controlled). Outsourcing alternatives... something to think about. I believe that she would consider it cheating, or damn close to it. I'd feel the same if she did it. For me, it's not just about the act. To borrow from other posts on the forum - it's about the intimacy. I don't see a solution in a purely physical outsourcing. I need the emotional connection. At that point, it is cheating (to me) so I may as well man up and leave.
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Post by apathetic on Jan 22, 2019 12:27:58 GMT -5
I have no "answers" for you Brother apathetic . And if you have been a lurker on and off for quite a while, you have seen what your options are....but already you appear to dismiss leaving or cheating. Just out of interest, on what evidence (in regard to the leaving option) do you state - "It would break me financially" - is this based on solid legal advice you have sourced ? "I would also lose my family" - aren't your kids adults now, living their own lives independently ? Incidently I am NOT suggesting you ought charge for the exit. Am suggesting that ALL the options need to be fully and objectively explored, otherwise you cannot possibly come to an informed choice. In regard to this starting a conversation about your unhappiness, perhaps writing down what you want to say could have some value. You'd have a pretty good idea of the content you'd want to include. Maybe turn it into a script. Rehearse it. It would be smart NOT to mention anything that you are not actually prepared to do - nothing will shred your cred quicker than that. Historically in this group "the talk" has an appalling record of achieving results, so it would be unwise to have big expectations of this discussion. To be clear, I don't dismiss leaving or cheating. I'm sure each is a very viable option for some. They just don't work for me. I considered leaving some years ago. Thought it through and had a detailed plan. Closely examined all the financial implications. Had a timeline mapped out for when the kids reached certain milestones so as not to disrupt the family. In the end, leaving just wasn't going to work (for me). Financially - I hesitate to get into much detail. No, I haven't seen a lawyer about me specifically, but have gathered enough valid information to know it would not work for me. I do have some protected funds and could probably even negotiate an amicable separation. Even if I go full battle mode and am able to sell the house, the numbers aren't where I would like them to be. The situation is complicated, but long term, I would be fine. It's my kids that get screwed. Family - Yes, my kids are adults. Almost all married off. All living independently. We are a very tight family. If I left her, I would be the bad guy. That's a given in my situation. I couldn't imagine explaining to my kids that I am leaving because their mother doesn't want to have sex with me. Doing so would make me even more of the bad guy. I've already developed a low enough opinion of myself for allowing this situation to continue all these years. Not sure I could deal with my kids blaming me for a divorce. Writing down and rehearsing. That's a great idea. One thing I have been afraid of is getting frustrated with the response (or lack thereof) and saying something I would regret. Sticking to a script might help me avoid that. I don't want to make threats I don't mean. Then again, without the threat of leaving, what leverage do I have to force a dialog? The idea reminds me... About 25 years ago, I actually wrote everything down and sent it to her. Since talking never produced a reaction, I had hoped the written word might have some impact. :crickets: "be unwise to have big expectations of this discussion" - no chance of that. One reason I haven't even tried "the talk" in years is because the BEST I expect is some "obligatory" sex to shut me up for a while. Still, when I consider my limited options, I wouldn't mind getting hit by a miracle. Doing nothing hasn't proved a very good solution, so I am hoping to find the right way to approach a conversation that can have an outcome - even if that outcome is a mutually agreed separation, or counseling, or learning she is asexual, or something else I haven't considered.
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Post by Handy on Jan 22, 2019 17:32:33 GMT -5
apathetic, after reading your posts, I have to tell you most refusing or disinterested sexual / intimacy partners will do "NOTHING" unless you are determined to either improve or end the marriage and with their full cooperation on the intimacy part and without their cooperation on the ending the relationship part. I am a lot like you what it comes to finances, "divorce doesn't make financial sense" "what will the kids think" and "am I selfish for wanting some form of a sexual intimate relationship" even if some good things still happen in the M. I am a fence sitter real close to the end of my rope. Another thing, after reading relationship forums for over 10 years, I don't remember anyone saying they were better off staying married. I heard many stories about being broke and the new relationship didn't work, but I have read more stories about any new relationship, while not being ideal, was much better than the old marriage. Just read Greatcoastal and Shamwow old and recent posts. They are both on the good side of their respective crappy marriages and into nirvana at times. Not everyone is that lucky bit it is possible. Staying for 98% of the people just gets you the same things. There was one guy that insisted he and his W goto marriage counseling and also to see a sex therapist. He told his W in a counseling session that her was going to start dating and WOULD be in a satisfactory sexual /intimacy relationship in a year and added he hoped he would be in that type of relationship with his W. The counselor asked his W if she wanted to stay married or would she be OK with divorce. It was rocky for a while but they have sex 2X a week and have stayed together for about 8 years. They both worked out what they each had to overcome and made compromises. Before this break through sex only happened a few times a year and she made him use condoms. They were about mid fifties at the time. Now he is over 60and having sex without a condom.
I hope that you see a point to my post and that post is any improvements take making waves, some times BIG waves. Your W is a big girl, she might be upset with waves but after the shock of a SERIOUS wave she will either go along with some new living arrangement or she won't. Keep doing what you have in the past and your current life will be your future life, which might work for a while or until it doesn't.
What i did to cope is have more and more outside interests. I am at the point my W and I live under the same roof, try to avoid conflicts but I feel very little connection with her or joy. It is mostly coping and avoiding the major negatives. I used to be the one to smooth over things to avoid conflicts No more because it didn't get me any place. Now if my W doesn't like something, tough bounce. No Mr Ass kissing for me.
Read the book "No More MR Nice Guy" by Glover. Buy a used copy from Amazon or find the free on-line copy. The book helped me be more independent and maybe a better man that some woman would want to be with. the more you do for some people, the less they respect you, was my problem.
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Post by Frustrated1978 on Jan 22, 2019 17:36:44 GMT -5
After 30 years of this shit it is highly unlikely that you will ever be able to fix it.
You have two options. Plan your escape and leave or accept this is your lot in life and enjoy everything else around you bar the sex.
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Post by sadkat on Jan 22, 2019 18:34:46 GMT -5
apathetic- I must agree with Handy- if you want a chance at fixing your sm issues, you must be willing to leave the marriage. Your wife must see that a marriage void of intimacy is a deal breaker for you. I can tell you that I’ve shared my dissatisfaction with my marriage with close family members and they have been extremely supportive. I think you might be surprised at the response you’ll receive. I can totally understand your reluctance to tell your adult children. I actually share that reluctance and have yet to tell my adult child that I’ve told my h I want to end our marriage. Having said that, I know my child loves me and, after the initial shock, will come to understand how unhappy I’ve been. I really believe our kids want what’s best for us and they will come around eventually. As you’ve said already, being unhappy for a good length of time changes who you are as a person. I’m quite sure your children have already noticed that. Wouldn’t they be happy to see you happy? It’s definitely a difficult decision to make but doing nothing leads to nothing.... and more unhappiness.
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Post by workingonit on Jan 22, 2019 18:44:28 GMT -5
apathetic I am not sure I have much to add but wanted to chime in with my sympathy. The apathy is so hard hitting. That numbness and acceptance that you will never have what you want. I found it linked to a belief that I was not worthy of what I want. I mean, it is not that bad, right? I would listen to the news about women kidnapped and sold into sex slavery or people watching their kids starve in war torn countries and think to myself 'How pathetic am I that I am complaining because I don't have sex and intimacy?" And so I would just go numb. I have come to see that is not true that I am not worthy, nor that it is not a big deal. I may never get what I want but I now know, after years and years, that I will certainly never have what I want from my h. And the reason tragedy is so horrific is that every human being is worthy of love and affection and joy. You do have some, albeit sucky, choices to make. And you do have a bunch of people here who understand and will listen and send virtual hugs. Welcome, friend. You are among those who understand.
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Post by h on Jan 23, 2019 11:53:13 GMT -5
I was firmly in the staying camp when I first came here. I really wanted solutions to fix my marriage. After trying everything I possibly could do on my own, I reached the apathetic point and quit caring. I didn't care if my marriage survived. I was ready to leave and that was the wake up call my wife needed. Our marriage nearly ended just 2 days before Christmas. We even discussed going to our respective families separately and spending the holidays apart.
We agreed to start working on our issues and she has been working on our sex life. Things are going better for us, but this was only possible because I was ready to end it. You have to be willing to put the marriage on the line if you want any hope of fixing it. There is no half-marriage. It's all in or all out. You may not like the outcome of divorce, but nothing will change unless you are prepared to go that far.
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Post by flounder on Jan 23, 2019 18:23:23 GMT -5
Know all about the apathy. It’s depression really. It’s kimda scary when you’ve gotten to the point that you just don’t care anymore.
But you really still do.
And that’s the worst part.
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Post by apathetic on Jan 23, 2019 23:52:19 GMT -5
First off, thank you to EVERYONE who posted. I truly appreciate the advice and support. I'll try to cover all my responses with a single post. apathetic - I must agree with Handy - if you want a chance at fixing your sm issues, you must be willing to leave the marriage. Your wife must see that a marriage void of intimacy is a deal breaker for you. Understood. And to add what Handy wrote: "unless you are determined to either improve or end the marriage and with their full cooperation on the intimacy part and without their cooperation on the ending the relationship part." I'm determined to fix things. Not so willing to leave. However, a willingness to leave may be possible if I don't have full cooperation on the fixing part. Also know that, for me, "fixing" may simply be a definitive answer - that she is "asexual" and will not change. Or that she simply doesn't want sex with me and has decided that isn't a problem. At least having a definitive answer of sorts will allow me to make a decision on how to proceed. Then I look at the story noted by Handy and I wonder. The couple goes from a SM to 2x/week. In my mind, using an ultimatum to cause such a major change in behavior raises questions. I get that the story is an exception rather than the rule. I also understand that such drastic change is even more rare. My point is that the change in behavior is easy to understand, but I wonder if a true change in mindset is also there. In other words, the sex is easy to fake, but not the desire/intimacy. That's a reason I have always avoided the "ultimatum" path. Call me naive, but I want it to be something done out of desire, not obligation or coercion. I see that things are better for h , and that is great. I agree it is all in or not. I also wonder how to tell the difference between a "wake up call" for someone versus going through the motions to avoid a divorce. That's the funny thing. I think we put on a very good outside face, even in front of the kids. I've had friends remark to me how we look like such a "happy" couple. We rarely argue and we get along very well on everything except this one issue. I do regret my kids growing up seeing less two-way physical affection than I would have liked (it's always been one-sided from me), but that ship has long sailed. Frankly, as long as I can ignore the no-sex part, we ARE very happy. Then I see her getting dressed or wearing something nice and it hits me like a rock to the head. It will sometimes put me in a bad mood. Of course, no one else knows the reason why, so I look like the "moody" one. I tried several approaches years ago. For a very long time I have given up. As you note, that only led to more unhappiness. Lesson learned the hard way. Something needs to be done and that's why I finally decided to stop lurking and post here. flounder wrote: Hit the nail on the head. It's exactly how I feel. I try to avoid the term "depression" although it does IMO fit. A friend of mine (knows nothing of this) is a psychologist. Use the word "depression" around him and he immediately thinks "suicidal" and "danger to self and others." I don't fit either of those categories. I still feel like crap and the numbness is horrible. Frustrated1978 Sad, but likely true. The eternal optimist in my thinks that I might find a fix, if I could only figure out the right path to get there. I guess you could say that coming here is the first step in planning my escape. I'm just not going to do it one sided. I need some answers. I need her to tell me either we cannot be "fixed" or she will not try to find a solution. With that, I think I'm at the point where I could move on. I'm working on my "script" to have the talk. Not getting far, but I am working on it. It needs to be a good one because I agree with the sentiment here. Things cannot stay the way they are. Something has to change. Finding a way to communicate that is not filled with inflammatory language or false threats is difficult. Same problem we have always had... how to get her to talk about a topic she refuses to talk about. I need a dialog, not a speech of ultimatums. I'll look for the ""No More MR Nice Guy" book. Maybe that will have some ideas. Thanks again.
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Post by baza on Jan 24, 2019 1:21:21 GMT -5
This is based on my - coming up 10 years - reading on this group and its' predecessor EP ILIASM and from my own 3 decade ILIASM deal I left in 2009....just to give you some context Brother apathetic . Your chances of success in this "last try" are awful, irrespective of what tactics you may use. However, the fact that your chances are awful doesn't mean you shouldn't have a crack at it. If it doesn't work, then that will tell you plenty in any event, though it wouldn't be what you wanted to know. But I think that as an adjunct to the "last try" you need to have a pretty good idea of what you'll do in the event of the "last try" crashing and burning. And, you need to be running the clock on the situation, mainly to keep yourself accountable. See (and I mean no ill will upon you here) if you undertake the "last try" WITHOUT having a credible fall back position, what happens if she is unresponsive to your pitch ? Your fall back position IS something that is under your control. Her response or non-response to your "last try" is a matter over which you have NO control. None.....but you do know that there are 3 possible responses - - she will call your bluff and pretty much ignore your pitch - she will take just enough action to shut you up for a bit then revert to her comfort zone - she will fully embrace the whole concept and stand along side you as you jointly find your way to sexual nirvana
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Post by Handy on Jan 24, 2019 3:55:16 GMT -5
apathetic, I sent you a PM Young at Heart started posting on www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php somewhere around 2008. He is now posting on talkaboutmarriage.com/forumindex.php and has 1,720 posts. Yes, his case is unusual, but he was determined to have a sexual marriage or end it. He had expert help with the marriage counseling and the sex therapy.
It might not work for anyone else but he was "come hell or high water the sex part is going to happen" and he was willing to do his part to fix what was wrong, first with him and help his W all he could. Of course she had to do her part and some people won't do that, but his W didn't want to divorce. I think his W saw how important sex was so she is in the game most of the way and not a reluctant partner from what I have read.
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