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Post by Handy on Jan 3, 2019 1:14:04 GMT -5
Carl, I also had and have ideas that I somehow made my W's disconnected behaviors towards me to be partly my fault. The problem for me was me trying to repir things without making her also accountable. I realize I wasn't all that my W wanted but I certainly did as much as possible for most of our marriage until I just gave up about 5 years ago. Life wasn't the Disney fairy tale life for my W. I worked my ass off but my W mostly saw what she wasn't getting. Maybe if I doubled my income and only worked half of the time, things would be better. But that is my take now that 50years have gone by.
I have been reading relationship forums seriously for 10+ years. What works is BOTH people need to want a better relationship or sex life or what ever. I read 20+ relationship books, posted on 4 different forums, nothing worked to get what I wanted. Sure, my W was happier when I was trying but she was taking and not giving anything back. Try not to make the mistakes I made.
I don't profess to be a relationship fixer but I will tell you this, giving and giving won't get you what you want or need doesn't work. The more I gave the less my W had to do and anyone that doesn't give or work for a better relationship is NOT going to value the relationship.. I did most of the relationship work and my W did almost none so she basically does not have a dog in the fight or a horse in the race. So guess what, she doesn't care as long as things are comfortable and she has her toys (interests) to play with and keep her occupied. I am not saying my W is happy with the way things are, it is just she doesn't have an emotional investment to do any of the fixing so not much is going to change. I feel as if I am an employee in the marriage, like it is mainly what I can do for her. Yes, I feel sort of like a very under paid employee.
Back to Carl. Fix what is yours to fix and like Baza said, are you better together or would you be better on your own. Kidsand finances can complicate things to almost no end. You can wish your W would see things your way but all you really have is yourself.
Again, people value more of what they worked for so if your W isn't willing to work for some improvements, stay if you like (which would be my first plan) but remember two good people just might not be good or right for each other.
I also suggest that you read and reread the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (NMMNG) by Glover. It might help you see that you might be expecting your W to do some things because you do them for her. Some people are not built like that. She has to be in this too. NMMNG will help you figure out some things you might be doing without getting the pay off that you want. Will it fix the marriage, most likely not, but it might put you on a better path.
Wikk
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Post by carl on Jan 3, 2019 6:06:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the good advice. Yes I am concerned that I am the one doing everything and that her heart doesn’t need to be in it because I am covering enough effort for two. It’s as if the more effort I make in our lives the less she makes and therefore the more I make and it goes on. That’s not just the sex but everything else and it was with everything else where it started and sex eventually went with it. The catalyst was our first child that I wanted to protect. I didn’t get the feeling she protected our children as much as I would have hoped so I jumped into that gap. And to look after my kids meant obviously I had to take extra good care of their mum who I wanted to be a bit more responsible but trying to help her I think it just made her take less responsibility. She really contributes rather little at all now and I am desperate for her to. But I now think that I have to give her more trust and space and perhaps not make it so apparent that I always have our backs covered. That’s hard for me only because of my kids - because I react immediately to look after them. But it’s not actually always helping to be right in there straight away with everything. I am learning that no action is a type of action too.
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Post by Handy on Jan 3, 2019 10:52:26 GMT -5
Carl, one concept from the book NMMNG is the idea of a covert contract, which sort of looks like "if you do "X" you expect your W to do "Y", and this is without you getting her to agree with her "Y" before you do your "X". It is what you are describing when you said you took over some things that you saw she was neglecting with your kids. You are right, the more you do the less she has to do. I seriously think the NMMNG book might help explain how you play a part in where your marriage is. I am recommending that you buy the book just for yourself and not say anything to your W about the book. I found a link where you can read the book for free but I stil think you need the actual book and hi-light the parts where you really connect with what the book has to offer. The free site is archive.org/stream/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy_djvu.txt
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Post by shamwow on Jan 5, 2019 21:23:54 GMT -5
It’s not an objective or rational believe perhaps but just personally I have seen worse problems with relationships after divorce to an extent that I would not try it. So it wouldn’t be for me. Also I think that I would always feel a tie to my first wife. Just how I am. But everyone is different. I think that if post-divorce you follow the "script" and fuck everything in sight you are indeed unlikely to find happiness. It is also true that most people follow the script to their own unhappiness. In fact, following that particular "script" was my "plan A" for over a year before I told my ex I wanted a divorce. But something funny happened along the way. I met ballofconfusion and sticking it into anything with a pulse didn't look very appealing at all. What I've found is that I am deeply and madly in love with someone who feels the same for me. Right now we have to travel to make it work but we have a good plan. We are almost halfway to where she can move to me. In short, it is a love story. But even absent that, ending my marriage was the best decision I made about it. It is absolutely positively possible to fall madly in love again and have them love you back the same way (including intimacy). Trust me.
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Post by saarinista on Jan 5, 2019 23:01:20 GMT -5
carl It sounds as if you've been doing more than your fair share of work in the marriage. It's all well and good to try your hardest to make your marriage work but in your case it almost sounds like your wife might be taking advantage of you. To me, that's not a marriage; that's just a bad deal for you. It almost sounds as if you are coddling her. If I am misinterpreting that, I apologize. Anyway I'd like to see you and all of us find some happiness. Marriage is never easy, but when it's nothing but if it's just one big one-sided slog that's not a good thing. I know you'll find good advice here so keep posting.
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Post by sadkat on Jan 6, 2019 8:57:39 GMT -5
It’s not an objective or rational believe perhaps but just personally I have seen worse problems with relationships after divorce to an extent that I would not try it. So it wouldn’t be for me. Also I think that I would always feel a tie to my first wife. Just how I am. But everyone is different. I think that if post-divorce you follow the "script" and fuck everything in sight you are indeed unlikely to find happiness. It is also true that most people follow the script to their own unhappiness. In fact, following that particular "script" was my "plan A" for over a year before I told my ex I wanted a divorce. But something funny happened along the way. I met ballofconfusion and sticking it into anything with a pulse didn't look very appealing at all. What I've found is that I am deeply and madly in love with someone who feels the same for me. Right now we have to travel to make it work but we have a good plan. We are almost halfway to where she can move to me. In short, it is a love story. But even absent that, ending my marriage was the best decision I made about it. It is absolutely positively possible to fall madly in love again and have them love you back the same way (including intimacy). Trust me. Thank you for this shamwow! It gives me hope. I’m very happy that you both found love again. It’s what we all want, isn’t it?
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 6, 2019 9:16:22 GMT -5
Shammy said: “think that if post-divorce you follow the "script" and fuck everything in sight you are indeed unlikely to find happiness. It is also true that most people follow the script to their own unhappiness.
In fact, following that particular "script" was my "plan A" for over a year before I told my ex I wanted a divorce.
But something funny happened along the way. I met ballofconfusion and sticking it into anything with a pulse didn't look very appealing at all.
What I've found is that I am deeply and madly in love with someone who feels the same for me. Right now we have to travel to make it work but we have a good plan. We are almost halfway to where she can move to me. In short, it is a love story.
But even absent that, ending my marriage was the best decision I made about it.
It is absolutely positively possible to fall madly in love again and have them love you back the same way (including intimacy). “
When I decided to divorce I had similar plans except I planned to be a serial monogamist with a new guy every 3 months. It ended up that my first boyfriend gave me everything I had ever dreamed of. Only time I have ever been with a man who provided good sex and emotional intimacy along with a sense of humor that makes me laugh out loud a few times a day.
Next month it will be 6 years since our first date. We still are happy and rocking and rolling in bed. Since he retired last month, we’ve been having morning and evening sex virtually every day. We are 67, 66. He speaks my love languages so I get the spontaneous kisses and, “I love yous” that I also give him.
I had lunch yesterday with one of my best guy friends, a middle aged man who just broke up with his girlfriend of 4 years. She was a beautiful belly dancer but he had never been attracted to her sexually. He had settled because he feared dying alone. They hadn’t even had sex for 3 years. The sex had at best been meh before and then she cut him off after he cheated. I’d long advised him to move on and he finally did and said he felt the way i felt when I decided to divorce: like a weight was lifted off me. Wisely, he is reentering therspy to figure out why he stayed so long in a relationship going nowhere.’
I hope that hearing these kind of stories gives those the courage to let go if they have been hanging on to a souls crushing marriage only out of fear that it’s all life has to offer them. This new year can lead to a new life.
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Post by sadkat on Jan 6, 2019 16:46:32 GMT -5
northstarmom- thank you for sharing your story again. I’m sure you’ve shared it many times. I, for one, need all the encouragement I can get!
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Post by carl on Jan 6, 2019 20:39:21 GMT -5
It’s not an objective or rational believe perhaps but just personally I have seen worse problems with relationships after divorce to an extent that I would not try it. So it wouldn’t be for me. Also I think that I would always feel a tie to my first wife. Just how I am. But everyone is different. I think that if post-divorce you follow the "script" and fuck everything in sight you are indeed unlikely to find happiness. It is also true that most people follow the script to their own unhappiness. In fact, following that particular "script" was my "plan A" for over a year before I told my ex I wanted a divorce. But something funny happened along the way. I met ballofconfusion and sticking it into anything with a pulse didn't look very appealing at all. What I've found is that I am deeply and madly in love with someone who feels the same for me. Right now we have to travel to make it work but we have a good plan. We are almost halfway to where she can move to me. In short, it is a love story. But even absent that, ending my marriage was the best decision I made about it. It is absolutely positively possible to fall madly in love again and have them love you back the same way (including intimacy). Trust me. I imagine that I could fall in love again and even be loved back. As you in your case have. Rightly or more likely wrongly though I cannot free myself from a sense of loyalty that I still have towards my wife. Even though she is cold to me physically and emotionally she would be very sad if I left her and would object strongly. I am figuring that hypocrisy out and unraveling the mind games bit by bit. I think when you can get a slight hold on whats happening to you then the rest comes a bit quicker. My head just tells me to figure out what’s going on before moving on. I think that refusers always take some kind of a strong hold over their partners. Thank god for those who move on but it is dawning on me how deeply motivated a refuser must be to keep their partner. Lack of intimacy would make anyone want to leave a relationship so there is a forceful hold of some sort that keeps the refused in the relationship. Refusers are good at what they do and they partner with people who can be controlled by their ways. That’s why I aim to act a little out of character to break the mould.
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Post by Handy on Jan 6, 2019 21:26:03 GMT -5
Carl, people do what they believe is right in their own mind and not what is logical. If a person believes affection and sex is unnecessary or somehow not what good moral people do, then they stick to that opinion and act accordingly. Logic goes out the door.
Look at the people that have radical religious beliefs. Some groups of people believe to the point of committing suicide. Why, because they believe what ever they do is more right than wrong. They also believe to be part of something their group thinks is right.
The no sex thing with men and women, believing they are justified, is their belief system operating at their pleasure or demise.
Also people vary when it comes to sexual desires and beliefs of what needs to be done to maintain a relationship. Some women and a few men don't get the good, high feelings from sex and affection. If there is no "feel good" from physical activities, then what do people do?
I understand your idea of not being able to free your mind from from feeling responsible for your W feelings and opinions. What I have read about is guys and women in your position sticking it out "UNTIL something triggers them and then they bolt away from the spouse in a few days and don't care what it cost to be free. Not everyone does this but staying until things blow up also has its down side.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 7, 2019 9:36:11 GMT -5
I think that if post-divorce you follow the "script" and fuck everything in sight you are indeed unlikely to find happiness. It is also true that most people follow the script to their own unhappiness. In fact, following that particular "script" was my "plan A" for over a year before I told my ex I wanted a divorce. But something funny happened along the way. I met ballofconfusion and sticking it into anything with a pulse didn't look very appealing at all. What I've found is that I am deeply and madly in love with someone who feels the same for me. Right now we have to travel to make it work but we have a good plan. We are almost halfway to where she can move to me. In short, it is a love story. But even absent that, ending my marriage was the best decision I made about it. It is absolutely positively possible to fall madly in love again and have them love you back the same way (including intimacy). Trust me. I imagine that I could fall in love again and even be loved back. As you in your case have. Rightly or more likely wrongly though I cannot free myself from a sense of loyalty that I still have towards my wife. Even though she is cold to me physically and emotionally she would be very sad if I left her and would object strongly. I am figuring that hypocrisy out and unraveling the mind games bit by bit. I think when you can get a slight hold on whats happening to you then the rest comes a bit quicker. My head just tells me to figure out what’s going on before moving on. I think that refusers always take some kind of a strong hold over their partners. Thank god for those who move on but it is dawning on me how deeply motivated a refuser must be to keep their partner. Lack of intimacy would make anyone want to leave a relationship so there is a forceful hold of some sort that keeps the refused in the relationship. Refusers are good at what they do and they partner with people who can be controlled by their ways. That’s why I aim to act a little out of character to break the mould. As a general rule, I've found that refusers are typically getting what they want they want out of the relationship from an intimacy perspective. Another general rule is that those of us that typically end up here tend to be the ones constantly trying to "fix" things so that the partner we have becomes the partner we want. These two rules tend to be in conflict with each other, and given human nature, the refuser is unlikely to change. So the refused can either stay or leave (with cheating as a coping strategy for either path). If you stay, you get to wear the martyr's clothes. I wore them for a couple decades and they were never a very good fit. If you leave, it is a huge step into the unknown (how will divorce shake out, how will it affect the kids, what will things be like when the dust settles, etc). I happened to get lucky beyond what I deserve with ballofconfusion and and grateful beyond belief for that. To be honest, as a balding middle aged man, I didn't think I had much of a chance out there. But I got lucky. I have no idea of how often people wind up with someone awesome post divorce, but not everyone does (at least not right away). I do suspect that those who do are seldom heard from again on this forum. After all, life is good now and reading here can bring back bad memories. But even loneliness for the rest of my life would have beaten feeling that there was something wrong with me until the end of my days. But worrying about your wife being lonely after she essentially abandoned you? Sounds like you're focused on the wrong thing IMHO.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 7, 2019 10:48:51 GMT -5
“To be honest, as a balding middle aged man, I didn't think I had much of a chance out there. ”
This kind of distorted thinking keeps many in unhappy marriages. Most middle aged men have thinning hair just like most middle aged women are at least a tad overweight. But most middle aged and older folks don’t expect possible partners to have the hair and bodies of people in their twenties. And personality and character and charm count for a lot including when it comes to sexual attractiveness.
Many also are attracted to bald men and curvy women.
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Post by Handy on Jan 7, 2019 11:56:22 GMT -5
Shamwow ....." I didn't think I had much of a chance out there. ”
Carl, Shamwow, Northstarmom, for example, I think most people have insecurities. I know I have insecurities and I have all of my hair, a decent automobile, am financially solvent, tall, but other things give me pause, just like Shamwow AND think there is a shrinking market of potential compatible partners.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 7, 2019 12:36:12 GMT -5
Sure, all of us have insecurities. I sure had insecurities when I considered divorcing. When I finally decided to divorce, I was 61, about 15 pounds overweight, missing several fingertips due to an accident, and I was a nonwhite atheist Buddhist in the Bible Belt South. I decided to divorce when I realized that if it ended up that I was single for the rest of my life that still would be better than remaining in a marriage that no longer had emotional or physical intimacy.
During the 6 or so years before I decided to divorce, I had done things to make me an interesting person to -- me. I'd pursued (without my husband) hobbies and friendships that attracted me even if I wasn't sure they'd be a good fit . I did things like take dance at the local community college even though I'm not a natural dancer and I was older than the teachers and was at least 35 years older than the students. I laughed at myself when I couldn't do things the others could easily do. Still, I had fun and to my surprise ended up being on stage as part of the ensemble in 3 community theater musicals! I invited all of my local FB friends to meet me for group lunches. About 5-12 people would show. I wouldn't worry about those who didn't. I became closer friends with many who did come. I ended up becoming the type of person whom I thoroughly enjoyed being around, and I attracted friendships with people who appreciated me with my imperfections and quirks including my courage to be myself and follow my dreams.
This, to me, is the secret: Become the kind of person whom you like and find interesting. Then, whether you divorce or not, you can create a happier life for yourself.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 7, 2019 12:53:57 GMT -5
“To be honest, as a balding middle aged man, I didn't think I had much of a chance out there. ” This kind of distorted thinking keeps many in unhappy marriages. Most middle aged men have thinning hair just like most middle aged women are at least a tad overweight. But most middle aged and older folks don’t expect possible partners to have the hair and bodies of people in their twenties. And personality and character and charm count for a lot including when it comes to sexual attractiveness. Many also are attracted to bald men and curvy women. It kept me there for many many years past the true death of the marriage (which was actually stillborn). The reason I stick around here isn't some kind of victory lap, but to point out to others how much more is possible if you're willing to sieze it. It is a process, though. For example coming out of the marriage I still cared about my ex wife's feelings and such and continued to make consessions (hoping to keep a good relationship for co-parenting). As I've finally internalized that she doesn't give a crap about recriprocating on being nice or on Co parenting I've cut off as much communication with her as possible. My goal now is parallel parenting. But that road was paved with insecurities that go beyond appearance. It did require a leap of faith and willingness to allow the person who has hurt me more than anyone else in my life to feel bad (because she doesn't get her way) from time to time. Kind of weird to be standing up for myself for the first time in my 40's but, God, it is so worth it.
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