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Post by baza on Dec 21, 2018 18:19:13 GMT -5
This post is prompted by a comment Sister @whynotm3 on another thread.
It is about what changes you can effect in an ILIASM deal.
There really is very very little change you can effect to your ILIASM situation and very very little change you can effect on your spouse.
ILIASM marriages just tend to float along on their established trajectory. There may be the odd blip here and there where things improve for a short period - or deteriorate for a short period - but generally the ILIASM deal remains pretty constant, and continues on its' established path.
Likewise with your spouse. Their actions tend to remain pretty consistent, there may be the odd spike on the graph where their actions get worse for a short period, or get better for a short period. But generally they also tend to float onward on their known and established path.
Likewise you. Your actions and thinking will have the odd spike up - or down - but generally follow a fairly predictable trajectory too.
What changes is usually NOT the ILIASM environment, NOR your spouses actions. These things tend to remain pretty consistent. What changes, is YOUR attitude to the situation. And that change of attitude is a very slow process....because change, is very very difficult for people... refuser or refused. And change only comes from within you.
If your situation is troubling you enough to have gotten you googling "sexless marriage", that is a pretty good indicator that your attitude toward your ILIASM deal and your spouse is on the move..... and that can be very intimidating and uncomfortable feeling, oftentimes sufficient to stop you dead in your tracks....or at least stall you for a while.
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Post by carl on Dec 21, 2018 18:39:56 GMT -5
Well put. Like that. I know I am changing. I can feel it everyday. There is stuff that I can’t figure at the moment, mainly not upsetting my kids, but my angle is changing and my mind broadening as to my options. And the options are available but it’s just my mind which doesn’t like or can’t function well under that change. True change is difficult but it can happen under pressure. I just hope I can learn fast.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 20:48:16 GMT -5
This post is prompted by a comment Sister @whynotm3 on another thread. It is about what changes you can effect in an ILIASM deal. There really is very very little change you can effect to your ILIASM situation and very very little change you can effect on your spouse. ILIASM marriages just tend to float along on their established trajectory. There may be the odd blip here and there where things improve for a short period - or deteriorate for a short period - but generally the ILIASM deal remains pretty constant, and continues on its' established path. Likewise with your spouse. Their actions tend to remain pretty consistent, there may be the odd spike on the graph where their actions get worse for a short period, or get better for a short period. But generally they also tend to float onward on their known and established path. Likewise you. Your actions and thinking will have the odd spike up - or down - but generally follow a fairly predictable trajectory too. What changes is usually NOT the ILIASM environment, NOR your spouses actions. These things tend to remain pretty consistent. What changes, is YOUR attitude to the situation. And that change of attitude is a very slow process....because change, is very very difficult for people... refuser or refused. And change only comes from within you. If your situation is troubling you enough to have gotten you googling "sexless marriage", that is a pretty good indicator that your attitude toward your ILIASM deal and your spouse is on the move..... and that can be very intimidating and uncomfortable feeling, oftentimes sufficient to stop you dead in your tracks....or at least stall you for a while. More truth indeed. The only one we can change is ourselves. My changed behavior can effect changed responses from others only if the other person is interested enough or inclined enough to change. If they aren't, then any effort I make on behalf of myself will still benefit me even if it has no effect on the relationship. My attitude is everything. Changing what I can (me, myself, and I) can drastically affect my attitude and the vibe I'm giving off. It may not cause anything in my SM to change for any lasting period of time and my marriage may still fail, but I will take comfort in knowing I did all I could, presented by best self to my spouse, and left no stone unturned. It will take both parties putting forth the effort. The odds for success are slim, I know. Taking control of what I can is empowering. Feeling empowered lifts my attitude. All benefit ME, regardless of whether the SM miraculously becomes healthy and is saved or is ended. Any change moves me from stuck at center. Anything is better than feel stuck IMO.
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Post by baza on Dec 21, 2018 22:24:34 GMT -5
To precis this all down, I think that - "sort out your own shit" - is the basis of it all.
Don't get too het up with trying to change another person - say a refuser spouse - apart from the fact that this can't be done, you probably have enough of your own shit to sort out which will keep you busy enough anyway.
As you present the authentic and evolving you to the world, some relationships will be greatly enhanced as a result, and some relationships will be re-defined, and some relationships will falter and end.
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Post by isthisit on Dec 22, 2018 2:58:52 GMT -5
As ever baza you are right on the money here. Once I became conscious of the reality and longevity (? permanence) of my situation I have been evolving on exactly the lines you describe. I now accept that I cannot change H, and no longer want to. However, I definitely do not accept this life and definitely want another. I just need to get my ducks in a row, and find the courage to do it. Courage of course because I will be blowing a hole in the lives of three people for whom the current situation is really very lovely indeed. A.k.a the tricky bit.
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Post by baza on Dec 23, 2018 2:23:42 GMT -5
Divorcing *can* have the effect of "blowing a hole in the lives of other people" Sister isthisit , but it is not written in stone that this has to happen. The attitude of the two spouses is key, and if your spouse is a halfway decent person (and if you also are a half decent person) then there's no real reason why you could not produce a half decent divorce with a bit of respect and goodwill. Of course in the immediate aftermath of making the announcement, things are likely to get very lively indeed until wiser heads prevail.
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Post by ironhamster on Dec 23, 2018 5:34:21 GMT -5
I have seen many divorces with kids go much more smoothly than mine did. If both parents are willing to be adults, they can talk and figure out the best couse of action.
My ex chose to go the greedy lawyer route. This left me with less than ideal options for the family, and I think it has had a negative effect on both my kids, but my relationship with my wife had reached toxic levels and staying would have been worse.
I have seen couples that stayed together create environments that are even more damaging for the kids. Just because a family is together, that does not mean it is not broken.
One of my friends divorced, got custody of the kids, and helped his ex get an apartment close by so that the kids could visit whenever they wanted. That worked out well. The kids initially appreciated being able to see her, but eventually became aware of what a mess she was, and what a healthy alternative their father was.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 6:41:20 GMT -5
I have seen many divorces with kids go much more smoothly than mine did. If both parents are willing to be adults, they can talk and figure out the best couse of action. My ex chose to go the greedy lawyer route. This left me with less than ideal options for the family, and I think it has had a negative effect on both my kids, but my relationship with my wife had reached toxic levels and staying would have been worse. I have seen couples that stayed together create environments that are even more damaging for the kids. Just because a family is together, that does not mean it is not broken. One of my friends divorced, got custody of the kids, and helped his ex get an apartment close by so that the kids could visit whenever they wanted. That worked out well. The kids initially appreciated being able to see her, but eventually became aware of what a mess she was, and what a healthy alternative their father was. I could write much on this one from my experience with my ex, but will simply say my kids (now 18 and 16) are just fine, very well adjusted, and know it was for the best. All was very calm and peaceful in the house one he moved out and the fighting stopped (at least from what they can see). Kids are resilient, and not the least bit stupid. I'm fairly certain yours already know something isn't quite "right" ... the degree of that knowledge will, of course, depend upon their ages. Long story short, don't be as worried about how the kids will do, they will likely be fine if the adults can keep their own shit in check and put the kids best interests first as was said already. Two happy and peaceful parents always make for happier kids, even if those two parents aren't living in the same house anymore. Just my 2 cents from my experience.
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Post by JonDoe on Dec 23, 2018 10:14:18 GMT -5
Depending on their ages, the kids are almost certaintly aware of more than you think. Mine are in college, and I'm surprised how attuned they are despite me taking the high-road the entire time before, during, and now after divorce. They love their Mother, and I would NEVER say or do anything to negatively impact their love for her.
However, when they are home from college they choose to stay with me, and only occasionally visit her for a quick meal. The first time my youngest met with his Mother after the divorce, he was back at my place within 45 minutes. When I commented that seemed like a short visit he said “she's a good cook, but she's also bat-shit crazy, and I'd much rather hang out with you Dad.” We've also had dinner as a family a few times at the request of the children when either one or both are home, and it is rather pathetic how she is so clearly trying to compete, and how she refuses to split the bill, even willing to cause a scene. It's not worth it for me to make a fuss over $100 a few times a year, so she'll continue to manipulate me getting her way here too. Last time, she offered a $5 coupon and I politely said “No thanks, I really want you to have it!”. I genuinely meant what I said, but I clearly wasn’t referring to the coupon.
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Post by isthisit on Dec 23, 2018 17:33:43 GMT -5
My situation seems to differ considerably from the responses of some posters here. I agree baza that not all separations need to be acrimonious and damaging. Both myself and H are in excess of ‘half decent people’ and I have as much confidence as you can from this vantage point that we could separate with some dignity and class. However, this is not my immediate concern. IF my current situation was toxic and harmful separation would, I agree, be the lesser of two evils- but this just is not the case. Currently we are a family of 4 which contains three people for whom the current deal works really well, and thus they are highly contented with the status quo. Of course I am the party who is silently screaming with frustration. Hence, in the short term I will be causing great harm to three people I love very much for the benefit of no-one but myself. In the longer term yes, we may all be better off- but some acute pain has to come first and this causes me to hesitate at the moment. This forum has given me the insight to understand that this short term harm has to happen, (else I may just tip over the edge into insanity) but at a time of my choosing when my shit is as together as it can be and in a fully informed manner. My children understand that our relationship has deficits, but they see commitment and love between us (as I hope they always will) they don’t need to know about the intimacy issues. They will be disappointed but unsurprised I think when the day comes for my release.
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Post by caballotierra on Dec 23, 2018 20:50:08 GMT -5
isthisit You described my feelings for years. I felt like everyone else was happy except for me, and maybe I was just being selfish anyway. Eventually, I got to a point where I realized a) the trajectory of my marriage was clearly going in one direction, b) I was being shut out of our marriage and any influence, c) my kids were starting to see my W as the only authority in our house, and d) they were seeing the refuser/refused model of marriage as something that was normalized (and would probably be prone to ending up in one just like mine). It is by far the most painful decision I've made, by a wide, wide margin. I don't sugar coat this--divorcing sucks, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It is the most painful thing I've gone through by a magnitude of 100. But I have realized through it how LITTLE affection and love my spouse has had for me all this time. It feels oddly familiar--basically our worst fight in every second of every day. People have told me all the good that will come out of this. And it's true, I do think I'm heading towards a better life. And with a ton of luck, maybe there is a remote chance I will also meet someone else who can love me honestly and openly. But in the meantime, good lord, does it suck constantly. I don't know about your situation, but honestly, any relationship where a person is "silently screaming in frustration" and not able to talk to their partner about it sounds pretty toxic and harmful to me. You might just not see it yet. Mine apparently was really harmful. It wasn't until our divorce was underway that my wife finally admitted to me that she hated me and resented me so much she never thought she could love me. Before we talked about divorcing, she still felt the same way...she just wasn't honest with me about it. And, like you maybe, I had just kept holding on to hope.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Dec 24, 2018 9:35:23 GMT -5
Re: changing others...Im reminded of a truism: "Dont wrestle with a pig, you get dirty and besides, the pig enjoys it" To precis this all down, I think that - "sort out your own shit" - is the basis of it all. Don't get too het up with trying to change another person - say a refuser spouse - apart from the fact that this can't be done, you probably have enough of your own shit to sort out which will keep you busy enough anyway. As you present the authentic and evolving you to the world, some relationships will be greatly enhanced as a result, and some relationships will be re-defined, and some relationships will falter and end.
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Post by flounder on Dec 24, 2018 9:50:13 GMT -5
Good to hear from you Contender. How are things in your world?
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Dec 24, 2018 12:44:46 GMT -5
Still sorting my shit out. All in all, things are looking good. Hope you are well! Good to hear from you Contender. How are things in your world?
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Post by flounder on Dec 24, 2018 13:54:53 GMT -5
Good to hear ! Sorting more shit here than the local post office. Merry Christmas,Festivus,Kwanzaa,Haunakah,and what ever else to all !
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