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Post by javba on Dec 20, 2018 9:08:31 GMT -5
Hi, hope you're all well. Happy Holidays - Merry Christmas. I hope we all find the strength to get thru another holiday season and then back to the grind of another year. The warmth of the holidays does seem to creep into cold lives and get us thru the season, IMHO. I tend to write SHORT, partly my analytic get to the point way of thinking, partly my short attention span so excuse me if this goes longer than I usually write.
For those who need context, or have not recalled. Long Story Short - 22 yrs arranged marriage, strict "catholic type" culture, joint family systems, kids come above all. Sexless 15 years plus more (who the fuck is counting), Counseling X 3rd coming on; Jan 2019. I am the captain of the ship that's going down. Youngest Leaving HS in a year.
Sexually - I've been blamed, shamed, made to feel guilty - backed off - any reason. Financially worked 3 jobs at one time - now down to 2. Make enough money that it's going to seriously hurt going separate ways. Maritally - the only thing we agree on is how to help raise kids - where I am the moderator, modernizer, helper, buffer from things FUCKING BLOWING UP as we raise teen agers, we can all drive our kids OFF the road - that's not the skill - the skill is keeping them ON the road.
We're headed into couples counseling 3.0 "to see if there's anything to salvage" - In the heart of my hearts I know there's nothing. Reason I am headed there with her is for her to cope and come to grips and start understanding we're not going to last much longer. I have long passed the "who's to blame, grudge holding" stance though she says "you do not forgive me for things that happened in the past" - My problem with that stance is - the future is NOT different as we keep the course set from the past.
More OBJECTIVELY - we do not agree on finances i.e. where to live, how much the house should cost, OMG We're going to loose 100,000 by selling (So what the fuck is what I think). Of course we do not agree sexually - I forget how long it has been, who cares for "duty sex and reset sex". One of the funnier last moments when I felt some passion was her saying "can we kiss with our mouths closed" is when I understood how far apart we were (lets fuck with clothes on - keeps it nicer is what boomed in my head at that time), Even after I would drive her insane with oral - she'd find it dirty and unacceptable. Never mind getting a BJ.
Personally - she's death before dishonor, not a crooked bone in the body, I WAS her FIRST, (she was not my first nor the last). She grinds herself to the bone from work to chores, despite my helping around, dishes, laundry, dinner, cleaning - there's ALWAYS more to do. She is a NICE PERSON. I am NOT. I have the distinct feeling I do not want to die on the cross of unrealistic financial expectations, ongoing bitterness. I just do not think we're headed to be together. Reason it took so long to get here is again said kids, raising parents etc. But with 1 kid out of home, 3 parents' out of the world, this is the FIRST time we can have a REAL thought bout what to do next. One definition of CRAZY is to keep doing the same and expect different results - so there we are.
AM I dishonest, or just stupid to go Counseling 3.0 - I can tell you if I took this to my side of the family they'd GEAR UP for RECONCILIATION because marriages are such entrenched family affairs. My goals are for her to come to peace with this - I do not want to screw her out of money - hey 10 years later I am dead - who gives a shit bout money. She'd still be the best mom for my kids.
Fond thoughts to Andie & Shy - if anyone has a bead on them say Hi.
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 20, 2018 9:28:00 GMT -5
If your goal in counseling is to help her come to terms with divorce you need to state that up front in counseling. Otherwise you are wasting your time and are stringing your wife along cruelty.
Is there any chance that you really are entering counseling hoping to turn your marriage around? After such a long period of sexlessness, your wife isn’t going to become a different person. Accept her and the marriage or move on.
Have you seen a lawyer to find out what divorce will mean? If not, you are fooling yourself about planning to leave. It maybe that you are more comfortable with the known than risking being single. That can be a fine choice, but if that’s yours, you will be happier if you own it.
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Post by javba on Dec 20, 2018 10:16:52 GMT -5
If your goal in counseling is to help her come to terms with divorce you need to state that up front in counseling. Otherwise you are wasting your time and are stringing your wife along cruelty. Is there any chance that you really are entering counseling hoping to turn your marriage around? After such a long period of sexlessness, your wife isn’t going to become a different person. Accept her and the marriage or move on. Have you seen a lawyer to find out what divorce will mean? If not, you are fooling yourself about planning to leave. It maybe that you are more comfortable with the known than risking being single. That can be a fine choice, but if that’s yours, you will be happier if you own it. Yes, that's occurred to me that I might be fooling myself about planning to leave. I cannot stay celibate for the rest of my life for sure. One of the things that would need to be cleared is "is there anything to salvage or move on" That's the theme I HAVE communicated to the counselor and yesterday to my better half this was exactly what was said "is there any chance at all?" or MOVE ON. Her 1st response was kids' gonna be outta school in 1 year - then MOVE on. So I am trying to walk the line between hope and a gentle landing for her. I explained to her yesterday it was NOT her fault for LL, nor should she have been married to a guy she did not know much about. She reciprocated in that the whole set up was unfair. I really am trying NOT to string her along, but I do appreciate your shining the light on these issues - so I can be more honest on those.
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Post by javba on Dec 20, 2018 10:21:49 GMT -5
If your goal in counseling is to help her come to terms with divorce you need to state that up front in counseling. Otherwise you are wasting your time and are stringing your wife along cruelty. Is there any chance that you really are entering counseling hoping to turn your marriage around? After such a long period of sexlessness, your wife isn’t going to become a different person. Accept her and the marriage or move on. Have you seen a lawyer to find out what divorce will mean? If not, you are fooling yourself about planning to leave. It maybe that you are more comfortable with the known than risking being single. That can be a fine choice, but if that’s yours, you will be happier if you own it. Yes, that's occurred to me that I might be fooling myself about planning to leave. I cannot stay celibate for the rest of my life for sure. One of the things that would need to be cleared is "is there anything to salvage or move on" That's the theme I HAVE communicated to the counselor and yesterday to my better half this was exactly what was said "is there any chance at all?" or MOVE ON. Her 1st response was kids' gonna be outta school in 1 year - then MOVE on. So I am trying to walk the line between hope and a gentle landing for her. I explained to her yesterday it was NOT her fault for LL, nor should she have been married to a guy she did not know much about. She reciprocated in that the whole set up was unfair. I really am trying NOT to string her along, but I do appreciate your shining the light on these issues - so I can be more honest on those. On the lawyer part - It's gonna be 30% of my earnings plus 1/2 of assets - Welcome to IL :-) OTOH I do want my kids to have what I could for them - and she's a virtual guarantee that she's going to spend her last dime on the kids - So that's fine. Funnily money is important but I'll still have a decent life - if not the american dream (3 cars in the home, 3 chickens in the pot and 3 chicks in the bed) (JK)
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 20, 2018 12:59:01 GMT -5
javba said: "Her 1st response was kids' gonna be outta school in 1 year - then MOVE on. So I am trying to walk the line between hope and a gentle landing for her. "
Seems YOU are the one who is having difficulty accepting the marriage's end. From what you've posted, your wife has indicated she plans to divorce after your child graduates from high school. You are the one ignoring her intent. Speaking directly about it: "It sounded like you would like to divorce after our child graduates from high school. If so, let's start getting things in motion" would be the way to move forward. There are lots of things that you both could be doing now to make divorce as easy as possible on all of you including your son. Even if he is grown and gone, the divorce still will affect his life.
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Post by lwoetin on Dec 20, 2018 15:56:41 GMT -5
... AM I dishonest, or just stupid to go Counseling 3.0 - I can tell you if I took this to my side of the family they'd GEAR UP for RECONCILIATION because marriages are such entrenched family affairs. My goals are for her to come to peace with this - I do not want to screw her out of money - hey 10 years later I am dead - who gives a shit bout money. She'd still be the best mom for my kids. I share similarities with you. Catholic, married 21yrs, family first, one child left in HS, wives are honorable and nice, wives prefer work over pleasure, don't like intimacy messy. Strange that our wives differ in that yours receives oral/refuses to give, but mines gives oral/refuses to receive. She will not offer duty/starfish sex or reset sex. Reminds me of The Nutcracker, they are a hard nut to crack. You don't seem dishonest or stupid for going to Counseling 3. I think you should give it all you've got. You've got a family system that will be heavily affected by your decision. It's honorable that you want the best for the mother of your kids and your spouse if reconciliation doesn't happen. Besides, it's not a fault to have low desire. I hope you both find peace and joy in the future. Merry Christmas.
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Post by baza on Dec 20, 2018 20:12:11 GMT -5
This joint counselling could, possibly, maybe, have some value. It depends on the agenda. And, as always, it requires two highly motivated participants who have already pretty much got their individual shit sorted out. So, straight up, have you got your individual shit pretty well sorted Brother javba ? Has your missus ? If not, then individual counselling to help you work your way through this would be the way to go. Same for your missus....if she was of a mind to. That would be her choice, and a matter not under your control. To summarise... To get the truthful outcome (which may be reconciliation or may be ending it) you need to bring the best possible version of javba to the table. That's the only part of the equation you can control. What your missus does or does not do is on her. You've got your choices to make. She has her choices to make.
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Post by javba on Dec 21, 2018 11:22:16 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I really appreciate your time and that I can look at this from different perspectives as well.
1. Honesty on going forward. 2. Do I have my shi* together 3. I should put my best foot forward
Just one thing I do know - based on how I am doing i.e. work, sleep and overeat, If someone had told me this would be me 50 years later - I should have gone a different way in life (who would not)
I am trying to isolate my emotions from my reality - i.e. look objectively and use your feedback. I can only play the cards I've been dealt. In all reality I am the one who's going to lose big time in her and my family or decide to go fuckless for the rest of my life. Unless I expect her to change; which has not happened, nor she indicates "why should I change" [really golden words from her]
Thanks, writing here has helped me clear my head on this.
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Post by baza on Dec 22, 2018 18:30:02 GMT -5
"I am trying to isolate my emotions from my reality" - you say Brother javba . It is a bloody hard thing to do isn't it. But even if you can only partially do it, it has value, and the more you practice at it the better you get at it. If you can let all the emotional air out of the balloon and look at the facts, and only the facts, clarity will emerge. It is a difficult discipline ... and good on you for having a crack at it. What I found helpful was to re-read my old backstories, and imagine they were written by "Joe" not me, and then figure out what I would suggest to "Joe". In other words, try and look at the situation from an outside perspective.
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Post by JonDoe on Dec 22, 2018 19:07:06 GMT -5
If you have even this slightest inkling about divorce, get your financial life in order, and talk with an attorney about the financial burdens moving forward. Everyone’s situation is different. In my case, I only had a few more years to pay off the mortgage, was setup for a comfortable retirement and was even thinking about possibly retiring a few years early. Now after buying her out of the mortgage, I have a new 30 year mortgage with a higher interest rate for more than the original price of the home, and I'm effectively paying her mortgage every month in alimony, plus she got half my retirement fund, nearly all the furniture and home furnishings, and a substatial life-insurance policy. I feel like I got effed in the deal, but my lawyers, a retired judge, and other divorcees I know think I did better than I would have had we not settled out of court. In their words, I got “effed” less than I could have, which is actually how you could sum up my marriage too. How anyone thinks this is a just system is beyond me. YMMV
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Post by baza on Dec 22, 2018 21:09:12 GMT -5
Yes JonDoe . That's good advice. Get fully informed. It is also a salutary lesson on dealing with the facts. You may well feel emotionally upset about how the division of assets works out. You may feel quite angry about how the split would turn out. You may feel extraordinarily pissed off at how the split would shake out. But none of these emotions is going to make a blind bit of difference to the facts. The split of assets formulas that legally apply will not alter, whether you think it fair or not.
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Post by JonDoe on Dec 23, 2018 8:52:28 GMT -5
Splitting existing assets accrued during the marriage is one thing, but being forced by “the system” to pay alimony to an ex-spouse that can financially support herself just because I chose a more lucrative profession before we got married and continually work at increasing my marketable skills is unjust, and borderline criminal. She didn’t help with my career in anyway so why should she continue to benefit from it for the next two decades of my life?
Hypothetical story based on reality of how the system works. Two people meet, fall in love, and get married. She is an attractive brain surgeon and he is a hot yoga instructor. After twenty years of marriage, he files for no-fault divorce and is awarded temporary alimony during separation, and she must also pay all legal fees for both parties. She now makes $500,000 and he makes $50,000, so he is awarded $10,000 a month alimony for an “undetermined” amout of time (a.k.a permanent alimony). She must also maintain a $2M life insurance policy for as long as she is obligated to pay alimony, with her ex as the sole beneficiary so he is not financially “burdened” in the event of her death. At any time, he can petition the court for her to pay more if either he starts making less or she starts making more, and he may also be awarded repayment of said legal fees in the process. He clearly has no incentive to remarry or try to earn more since he has more to lose than gain. And she can’t stop paying alimony when she retires. She has to petition the court to prove that she can longer afford to pay, which is based on “his needs” and her ability to continue paying to meet said needs, decades after the divorce. And his “needs” are not based on a minimal, acceptable standard of living achieved during the years of marriage, they are based on the standrard of living during the marriage, which she primarily provided out of love, not a legal, contractual obligation. Sound fair to anyone?
Trump has actually made it worse for the payor. With the new tax laws, anyone finalizing divorce after January 1, 2019 can not deduct alimony payments from their taxable income. Instead, the recipient of alimony no longer has to pay taxes on alimony. “Why?” you may ask. Because the party making alimony payments is in a higher tax bracket, thus the new tax laws mean more taxes to collect. Do you think lawyers and judges are going to revise the alimony calculations accordingly? Fat chance. It now costs the alimony payor as much a 25-35% more and nets an additional 20-25% more for the payee, based on tax brackets of each party.
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Post by ironhamster on Dec 23, 2018 9:54:29 GMT -5
Atlas is going to shrug. I am not sure of the details, yet, but I was cheated out of the marriage I was promised. I will pay so long as it suits the interests of my last child at home, but there are plenty of interesting countries without extradition treaties with the US.
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Post by JonDoe on Dec 23, 2018 10:06:12 GMT -5
Atlas is going to shrug. I am not sure of the details, yet, but I was cheated out of the marriage I was promised. I will pay so long as it suits the interests of my last child at home, but there are plenty of interesting countries without extradition treaties with the US. My youngest actually suggested this option to me. 😂
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Post by JonDoe on Dec 23, 2018 10:58:08 GMT -5
javba Couples counseling is only as good as the counselor and the couples willingness to genuinely make every effort to improve the marriage. All counselors are not equal. Choose the best one you can afford and choose a new one immediately if not a good fit for either spouse or the marriage. The counselor will not and can not fix the marriage. The counselor can only counsel, advise, and attempt help the couple from going in the ditch, much like good parenting doesn’t guarantee a good outcome for all children. If you are going into couples counseling with the sole intention to help her deal with divorce, you may be doing everyone a disservice. With that Sai, it also seems like perhaps you may be seeking confirmation too. Resentment is like rust, it can ruin almost anything worth salvaging if not dealt with for too long. If you have any hope of salvaging the marriage, resentment will have to be resolved first, before intimacy will ever be on the table. Honestly, many of us in a clinical or total sexless marriage place unrealistic expectations on resuming intimacy. You may feel as if intimacy was the first thing to erode in the marriage, and is the key to recovery, but realistically the relationship struggles in other after beaver and after the intimacy became a serious issue. Communication is key. Many couples struggling in marriage simply need to learn to communicate effectively. Don’t assume that working two to three jobs to makes ends meet during the marriage will suddenly stop after divorce. The system is not kind or just. Don’t make any rash decisions without careful education and planning.
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