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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 11:21:59 GMT -5
I think love ebbs and flows. The initial "puppy love" thing doesn't last but I have been in and out of love with my wife a number of times in 30 years. This is an I interesting comment @tooyoungtobeold2 . Can you remember the reasons why you fell back in love with your wife? I had a class in College, Literature 301, where all we did was read and discuss War & Peace. Great class with a great professor, one of the few that I actually remember and made an impact on my life. Anyway, during one of our class discussions he said, "Marriage is what holds us together until we fall in love again.". It was 1988, my now-wife and I were dating but not married. I found his words to be correct, living and sharing a life with another person has times that are hard. Illness, grief, joy, sadness that you live through together. All things ebb and flow. Respect for each other, times where they need supporting, times when you need supporting, times when you want to be left alone, etc. I can't recall exact reasons really, just that we'll be doing something together and you can feel the love between us again. Sometimes it's been a while so its noticeable. I like to think that two peoples lives are pathways that should diverge and wander but if you're doing this together then the pathways are parallel but they don't stay that way always. That's too limiting. Lately, the sex hasn't been important to me largely because we're "managing" a lot right now. Aging parents, building a house (I'm the designer and General Contractor so that's a lot) so sex seems back burner stuff.
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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 20, 2019 12:41:44 GMT -5
Having a full plate to manage resulting in sex taking a spot somewhere down the line is something I can relate to. When my then W and I were building our new house I also was my own contractor. We both had full time jobs and worked on the house after getting off. It made for some very long days and no initiating on either side. After the house was finished and we moved in is when I noted just how long it had been since we had been "busy". I realized I wasn't really much "in the mood" and wasn't initiating. That's when I had my testosterone checked and discovered just how low it was. I got that corrected and was "back in the game". Unfortunately my tag team partner had left the arena, never to really return.
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 21, 2019 23:53:31 GMT -5
Since joining this forum I have been shocked at the sense of expectation and entitlement amongst the W’s of some of the men here. It seems common for these women to use their uterus and then feel a sense of justification to be economically inactive for the rest of their days. Unbelievable today. Why on Earth do you guys this applies to fall for it? Is there not an overwhelming temptation to say “shift your lardy arse lady and go and earn some money”? Well, for starters, it wasn’t planned to be such. The plan of record was for her to continue her career, which she was quite good at and made about 2/3 of what I did. But separation anxiety got the better of her after going back to work; she transitioned to working from home part-time and then that ended. From my side, there were a couple of factors. One, it was the model I saw with my parents, it was traditional when I was growing up, and so it seemed the family model to aspire to if one could. (Before this all transpired, if someone said I’d be responsible for all the income and benefits for 4 people, there’s no way I’d have signed up for that responsibility. But it sneaks up on you and just becomes the way things are.) And then there’s the provider / giver mentality that wants to spoil your spouse and be the protector / provider of the family. You’d think me a real sucker if I shared the things I did beyond the SAHM arrangement. And your H... obsessing over restoring cars is a hobby for single guys, which I suppose is where he’s landed himself. Screwed up priorities. Kudos to you for not being dependent.
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Post by isthisit on Nov 22, 2019 1:29:25 GMT -5
Since joining this forum I have been shocked at the sense of expectation and entitlement amongst the W’s of some of the men here. It seems common for these women to use their uterus and then feel a sense of justification to be economically inactive for the rest of their days. Unbelievable today. Why on Earth do you guys this applies to fall for it? Is there not an overwhelming temptation to say “shift your lardy arse lady and go and earn some money”? And then there’s the provider / giver mentality that wants to spoil your spouse and be the protector / provider of the family. You’d think me a real sucker if I shared the things I did beyond the SAHM arrangement. Nope, I would be very unlikely to view you as a sucker more likely just a kind and thoughtful man. It’s not the choice that grinds my gears at all, a perfectly sensible arrangement which works for many families. Many of my friends are/were SAHM’s I do not judge them or anyone else. The bit that infuriates me is the sense of entitlement and expectation where once said uterus has been used every goddam penny the guy earns is never appreciated and is hers to spend- up to and including when said offspring are self sufficient. Then it’s easy street forever often while moaning about what they don’t have/can’t afford etc. There may be a male somewhere behaving like this but I’ve never met one. I think you hit the nail on the head about the provider mentality. I have purposely brought up my daughter and son to avoid such thinking. People are parents, and people are responsible for the economic prosperity of a family.
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Post by h on Nov 22, 2019 10:30:45 GMT -5
Handy - there’s a lot here and I’m really not sure how to respond or even if I should. I’m saddened that your youth gave you a very different perspective of love, compatibility, and responsibility. Admittedly, I did not grow up in poverty so cannot relate at all to how your growing up years shaped your perceptions. But... I do take issue with your thoughts on “women’s independence”. I’ve worked since I was in my late teens. My motivation for working and having a career has always been to contribute to the quality of my life. Later, when I got married and had a child, I progressed my career with the intent of contributing to my family’s quality of life. Never did I consider the money I earned as “play money”. I paid the bills right alongside my husband. I detect a note of negativity from your statements about “women’s independence” and I’m sorry you feel this way. For you to shy away from a relationship because you think you cannot provide a woman with the quality of life she “wants” is just sad. These days, some women are more than willing to contribute to the household income and to work with their spouses to improve the quality of their family’s life. I believe you are clinging to past beliefs that are doing you no favors, my friend. I simply cannot like this enough. I could have written every word. Since joining this forum I have been shocked at the sense of expectation and entitlement amongst the W’s of some of the men here. It seems common for these women to use their uterus and then feel a sense of justification to be economically inactive for the rest of their days. Unbelievable today. Why on Earth do you guys this applies to fall for it? Is there not an overwhelming temptation to say “shift your lardy arse lady and go and earn some money”? For me in case you’re wondering H was quite willing to support me to be a SAHM, imagine where I would be now with that choice? This wasn't the intent for our marriage. Our plan after college when we got married was that I would work while she finished her Master's degree, and then she would work so I could go back full time and finish my Master's degree. The reality was that she couldn't get hired full time so I had to do night/weekend/online classes to finish my Master's degree while still working to support us. She still can't get into a decent position that pays enough to live on and she's too emotionally fragile to handle the constant rejection of getting turned down or not called for interviews. She's in a safe position with a secure job but with terrible pay and almost no benefits or retirement. I've helped her with her applications and resumes and advised her on the best people to get reference letters from. I've kept an eye out for openings all over the region so she can apply as soon as they open up. There's nothing else I can do to help her. I honestly think she's just terrible at interviews and I can't fix that. Hindsight...
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Post by isthisit on Nov 22, 2019 11:23:02 GMT -5
I simply cannot like this enough. I could have written every word. Since joining this forum I have been shocked at the sense of expectation and entitlement amongst the W’s of some of the men here. It seems common for these women to use their uterus and then feel a sense of justification to be economically inactive for the rest of their days. Unbelievable today. Why on Earth do you guys this applies to fall for it? Is there not an overwhelming temptation to say “shift your lardy arse lady and go and earn some money”? For me in case you’re wondering H was quite willing to support me to be a SAHM, imagine where I would be now with that choice? This wasn't the intent for our marriage. Our plan after college when we got married was that I would work while she finished her Master's degree, and then she would work so I could go back full time and finish my Master's degree. The reality was that she couldn't get hired full time so I had to do night/weekend/online classes to finish my Master's degree while still working to support us. She still can't get into a decent position that pays enough to live on and she's too emotionally fragile to handle the constant rejection of getting turned down or not called for interviews. She's in a safe position with a secure job but with terrible pay and almost no benefits or retirement. I've helped her with her applications and resumes and advised her on the best people to get reference letters from. I've kept an eye out for openings all over the region so she can apply as soon as they open up. There's nothing else I can do to help her. I honestly think she's just terrible at interviews and I can't fix that. Hindsight... Yes, but your W works. What an individual earns can be a moveable feast across a lifespan and counts for little. The willingness to contribute and respect for the effort involved in what you have is what matters.
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Post by saarinista on Nov 22, 2019 12:25:39 GMT -5
I agree with you, @tooyoungtobeold2. Marriage is an INSTITUTION that holds people together until they fall in love again. Just like "duty sex" can help comprise the glue that can hold you together in between the great sex, even if you're kind of mad at your partner.
But there are times when the falling back in love never happens. Or it never happened in the first place. There are times when even that duty sex goes away for years or even a decade.. Or two...
That's when we are left to analyze whether we are really in a marriage anymore or just in an institution, or a business partnership, or a sexless rut. 🤔🙁
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Post by h on Nov 22, 2019 13:01:25 GMT -5
This wasn't the intent for our marriage. Our plan after college when we got married was that I would work while she finished her Master's degree, and then she would work so I could go back full time and finish my Master's degree. The reality was that she couldn't get hired full time so I had to do night/weekend/online classes to finish my Master's degree while still working to support us. She still can't get into a decent position that pays enough to live on and she's too emotionally fragile to handle the constant rejection of getting turned down or not called for interviews. She's in a safe position with a secure job but with terrible pay and almost no benefits or retirement. I've helped her with her applications and resumes and advised her on the best people to get reference letters from. I've kept an eye out for openings all over the region so she can apply as soon as they open up. There's nothing else I can do to help her. I honestly think she's just terrible at interviews and I can't fix that. Hindsight... Yes, but your W works. What an individual earns can be a moveable feast across a lifespan and counts for little. The willingness to contribute and respect for the effort involved in what you have is what matters. I think the willingness was there in the beginning years, but she doesn't handle setbacks. When things don't go perfectly, she quits striving for better and settles for comfort. That's why the rare sex we have is limited to only one allowed position. That's why she's clinging to a job with no future. She never started out with the goal of coasting through life, but that's how it turned out. She's not willing to accept the "less than ideal" position as a stepping stone to a better one. I took a position early on that had a ridiculously long commute and terrible work conditions. I didn't want to work there, but I did it for the money to support her through her graduate work and keep a roof over our heads and I knew the experience would help getting hired elsewhere. The difference between us is that I made that sacrifice for the both of us. She's not willing to do the same.
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Post by isthisit on Nov 22, 2019 15:53:13 GMT -5
Yes, but your W works. What an individual earns can be a moveable feast across a lifespan and counts for little. The willingness to contribute and respect for the effort involved in what you have is what matters. I think the willingness was there in the beginning years, but she doesn't handle setbacks. When things don't go perfectly, she quits striving for better and settles for comfort. That's why the rare sex we have is limited to only one allowed position. That's why she's clinging to a job with no future. She never started out with the goal of coasting through life, but that's how it turned out. She's not willing to accept the "less than ideal" position as a stepping stone to a better one. I took a position early on that had a ridiculously long commute and terrible work conditions. I didn't want to work there, but I did it for the money to support her through her graduate work and keep a roof over our heads and I knew the experience would help getting hired elsewhere. The difference between us is that I made that sacrifice for the both of us. She's not willing to do the same. I am sorry to hear about your circumstances h . I understand only too well how hard it is to knock out a Master’s in nooks and crannies of time while working full time and living. It’s a killer. Your W seems to lack your resilience in more ways than one. I am unsure about the services available to you in your locality but CBT may help your W to improve her resilience and possibly improve her (and your) lot in life. As to the single position thing (I share your pain here too) I am unsure how this is linked to her aiming low in life. If the question isn’t too intrusive what do you think is the relationship here? Do you anticipate an upturn in sexual activity if your W’s employment prospects improve?
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Post by h on Nov 22, 2019 16:03:03 GMT -5
I think the willingness was there in the beginning years, but she doesn't handle setbacks. When things don't go perfectly, she quits striving for better and settles for comfort. That's why the rare sex we have is limited to only one allowed position. That's why she's clinging to a job with no future. She never started out with the goal of coasting through life, but that's how it turned out. She's not willing to accept the "less than ideal" position as a stepping stone to a better one. I took a position early on that had a ridiculously long commute and terrible work conditions. I didn't want to work there, but I did it for the money to support her through her graduate work and keep a roof over our heads and I knew the experience would help getting hired elsewhere. The difference between us is that I made that sacrifice for the both of us. She's not willing to do the same. I am sorry to hear about your circumstances h . I understand only too well how hard it is to knock out a Master’s in nooks and crannies of time while working full time and living. It’s a killer. Your W seems to lack your resilience in more ways than one. I am unsure about the services available to you in your locality but CBT may help your W to improve her resilience and possibly improve her (and your) lot in life. As to the single position thing (I share your pain here too) I am unsure how this is linked to her aiming low in life. If the question isn’t too intrusive what do you think is the relationship here? Do you anticipate an upturn in sexual activity if your W’s employment prospects improve? The single position is part of her pattern of quitting things that are difficult. Every time a position was awkward or didn't immediately and effortlessly work, it was removed from the menu. When anything gets difficult, she gives up. That's how it's related.
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Post by isthisit on Nov 22, 2019 16:18:09 GMT -5
I always put my H’s single position and general predictability in the bedroom as an overwhelming lack of interest expressed as repetition. After all imagination in anything requires enthusiasm, effort and engagement.
I have read about your limiting factors right now, but I hope you escape sooner than you anticipate.
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Post by carl on Nov 23, 2019 22:13:14 GMT -5
Here is a good question for those of us who are deep thinkers. My apologies if you don’t want to think too hard. I’m afraid this question will require some thought. Well, it’s actually 2 questions. And no- I didn’t come up with them. I found them online on a relationship thread- go figure! How do you know when you love someone? Does love grow slowly over time or do you believe in love at first sight? I suppose it’s different for who you feel the love for. For a partner I know I love them when I am their friend, when I listen to what they say, connect with them emotionally and understand their feelings, their fears, desires and ambitions. Whether they love me too is another matter but that’s not my decision. As for love at first sight. I haven’t experienced that. I would need to get to know somebody before I loved them. What is there to love if you know nothing about them. I don’t even really feel much attraction at first sight because I am waiting to listen to what a woman says and watch how she is. I like calm balanced women so I can’t have love for them until I know they aren’t aggressive. It would normally take me a few weeks not that I can clearly remember I am afraid.
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Post by sadkat on Nov 23, 2019 23:31:49 GMT -5
What would you be willing to compromise in life for an intimate relationship?
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Post by flounder on Nov 23, 2019 23:47:14 GMT -5
Tough to say. Financial security I guess.
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Post by Handy on Nov 23, 2019 23:52:08 GMT -5
Staying up late.
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