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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 11:55:24 GMT -5
I just started really pushing the specifics of frequency in the last few months. She originally didn't realize how infrequently we had sex but now she is becoming more aware. It still hasn't made much of an impact on the frequency, but we both know how long it's been and we are both aware that the other knows how long it's been. That has created some noticable tension in our house. Last night I was showing her a funny text from a family member and then she closed it. She commented on the fact that I had taken the picture of her off my screen background. I was honest and told her that it was too hard to look at every day. I didn't say any more, but she understood the implication that my difficulty was due to the length of time since we were last intimate. It was a quiet night from then until we went to sleep: her in bed and me on the couch. To clarify, we have been sleeping separately for a few days due to illness, not argument, but I think I may stay "sick" a few extra days. I'll get a few extra nights of decent sleep (not laying awake for hours until it's safe to handle my unmet needs) and maybe she'll miss me a little bit more. I may stay on the couch until she asks me to come back and then make her beg. Apologies, but I'm on an honesty kick. Why not tell her the truth, that you want to sleep separately so you can take care of your needs, and give her a choice if she prefers you do it in front of her (with her free to join in) or in another room? Any act that is meant to be a hint to a refuser is almost invariably not going to be understood in the manner it is meant. If you want to sleep separately, tell her why. If you want to be able to pleasure yourself in your own room, let her know. But don't send nonverbal messages. It almost never works. And you may be surprised that the direct way gets the best results. Certainly the most clear results.
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Post by h on Sept 27, 2018 12:33:20 GMT -5
I just started really pushing the specifics of frequency in the last few months. She originally didn't realize how infrequently we had sex but now she is becoming more aware. It still hasn't made much of an impact on the frequency, but we both know how long it's been and we are both aware that the other knows how long it's been. That has created some noticable tension in our house. Last night I was showing her a funny text from a family member and then she closed it. She commented on the fact that I had taken the picture of her off my screen background. I was honest and told her that it was too hard to look at every day. I didn't say any more, but she understood the implication that my difficulty was due to the length of time since we were last intimate. It was a quiet night from then until we went to sleep: her in bed and me on the couch. To clarify, we have been sleeping separately for a few days due to illness, not argument, but I think I may stay "sick" a few extra days. I'll get a few extra nights of decent sleep (not laying awake for hours until it's safe to handle my unmet needs) and maybe she'll miss me a little bit more. I may stay on the couch until she asks me to come back and then make her beg. Apologies, but I'm on an honesty kick. Why not tell her the truth, that you want to sleep separately so you can take care of your needs, and give her a choice if she prefers you do it in front of her (with her free to join in) or in another room? Any act that is meant to be a hint to a refuser is almost invariably not going to be understood in the manner it is meant. If you want to sleep separately, tell her why. If you want to be able to pleasure yourself in your own room, let her know. But don't send nonverbal messages. It almost never works. And you may be surprised that the direct way gets the best results. Certainly the most clear results. I think you missed the part where I said honestly "it's too hard to look at your picture every day". I'm not hinting anymore. The sleeping separately issue will be discussed once we're both healthy again.
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Post by shamwow on Sept 27, 2018 13:16:51 GMT -5
I just started really pushing the specifics of frequency in the last few months. She originally didn't realize how infrequently we had sex but now she is becoming more aware. It still hasn't made much of an impact on the frequency, but we both know how long it's been and we are both aware that the other knows how long it's been. That has created some noticable tension in our house. Last night I was showing her a funny text from a family member and then she closed it. She commented on the fact that I had taken the picture of her off my screen background. I was honest and told her that it was too hard to look at every day. I didn't say any more, but she understood the implication that my difficulty was due to the length of time since we were last intimate. It was a quiet night from then until we went to sleep: her in bed and me on the couch. To clarify, we have been sleeping separately for a few days due to illness, not argument, but I think I may stay "sick" a few extra days. I'll get a few extra nights of decent sleep (not laying awake for hours until it's safe to handle my unmet needs) and maybe she'll miss me a little bit more. I may stay on the couch until she asks me to come back and then make her beg. So you're cruising for a good ol' fashioned grudge fuck? Sounds gruesome. Wouldn't it be easier to just jump her and see where it leads?
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Post by h on Sept 27, 2018 13:57:42 GMT -5
I just started really pushing the specifics of frequency in the last few months. She originally didn't realize how infrequently we had sex but now she is becoming more aware. It still hasn't made much of an impact on the frequency, but we both know how long it's been and we are both aware that the other knows how long it's been. That has created some noticable tension in our house. Last night I was showing her a funny text from a family member and then she closed it. She commented on the fact that I had taken the picture of her off my screen background. I was honest and told her that it was too hard to look at every day. I didn't say any more, but she understood the implication that my difficulty was due to the length of time since we were last intimate. It was a quiet night from then until we went to sleep: her in bed and me on the couch. To clarify, we have been sleeping separately for a few days due to illness, not argument, but I think I may stay "sick" a few extra days. I'll get a few extra nights of decent sleep (not laying awake for hours until it's safe to handle my unmet needs) and maybe she'll miss me a little bit more. I may stay on the couch until she asks me to come back and then make her beg. So you're cruising for a good ol' fashioned grudge fuck? Sounds gruesome. Wouldn't it be easier to just jump her and see where it leads? Nope, I'm waiting until she wants to. I'm not accepting guilt induced "grudge fucks" anymore. Only willing and enthusiastic. She's going to want me or I'm not going to bother.
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Post by Handy on Sept 27, 2018 14:10:38 GMT -5
H, some women have it in their mind that the guy has to do the initiating 95-99% of the time. I don't think anyone can change that mindset. If your W is like that, what is probably going to be the outcome of your intimate life with your W?
I am going to go with something like shynjdude is doing. Tell your W more about why you removed the background picture and more importantly WHAT YOU want to happen. I think avoiding what is wrong and spending more time on what you want gives the W a goal to work for if she is willing to work towards that goal.
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Post by h on Sept 27, 2018 14:44:08 GMT -5
H, some women have it in their mind that the guy has to do the initiating 95-99% of the time. I don't think anyone can change that mindset. If your W is like that, what is probably going to be the outcome of your intimate life with your W? I am going to go with something like shynjdude is doing. Tell your W more about why you removed the background picture and more importantly WHAT YOU want to happen. I think avoiding what is wrong and spending more time on what you want gives the W a goal to work for if she is willing to work towards that goal. She knows exactly why I took it down. That's why she didn't talk to me the rest of the night. She is acutely aware of my reason and it pissed her off. What I WANT is to be desired. If I'm the one initiating all the time then she is not showing me that she desires me. I'll forgive the misunderstanding since you're new here but over the last several months, W and I have been talking much more directly. I have made my needs clear and have directly told her that I was not happy with our limited intimate life. She has shown some willingness to try and improve and I have emphatically praised her for that. In the last few weeks though, she has started pushing back and returning to her old avoidance tactics. I think of it as a negotiation phase where she will attempt to back slide as far as she can to see what I will tolerate. I'm done tolerating though. I spent the last decade tolerating and my tolerance is all gone. As I have learned here: if she wants to fuck me, she will. If she doesn't want to, I don't want her to anyway.
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Post by Handy on Sept 27, 2018 14:58:07 GMT -5
H, I get that you don't want a pity fuck or to have sex with someone that doesn't like sex. That is a common feeling among men and women.
Because I don't know much about your W, I will ask if she even has reactive desire once any intimacy gets going?
I have been reading relationship forums for 10+ years trying to figure out this desire thing and who initiates. I have watched videos made by marriage counselors about who initiates, form he should 95% of the time to it needs to be 50=50.
Some of the women's replies seemed to be the guy needs to initiate 75% of the time. Some women said if they initiate more than 5% of the time, her H shuts down.
There were a lot of replies about one partner initiating almost all of the time, it gets depressing. Like on ILIASM, some women said they initiated more than 95% of the time and felt frustrated or some similar negative feelings
Mostly, people what to be desired in several ways and when the desire isn't there, someone feels lonely or wants to avoid being a pest.
Sorry, i don't have any good advice for you. Being rejected or having a sort of non-participating partner just doesn't do it for a lot of people.
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Post by shamwow on Sept 27, 2018 15:05:46 GMT -5
H, some women have it in their mind that the guy has to do the initiating 95-99% of the time. I don't think anyone can change that mindset. If your W is like that, what is probably going to be the outcome of your intimate life with your W? I am going to go with something like shynjdude is doing. Tell your W more about why you removed the background picture and more importantly WHAT YOU want to happen. I think avoiding what is wrong and spending more time on what you want gives the W a goal to work for if she is willing to work towards that goal. She knows exactly why I took it down. That's why she didn't talk to me the rest of the night. She is acutely aware of my reason and it pissed her off. What I WANT is to be desired. If I'm the one initiating all the time then she is not showing me that she desires me. I'll forgive the misunderstanding since you're new here but over the last several months, W and I have been talking much more directly. I have made my needs clear and have directly told her that I was not happy with our limited intimate life. She has shown some willingness to try and improve and I have emphatically praised her for that. In the last few weeks though, she has started pushing back and returning to her old avoidance tactics. I think of it as a negotiation phase where she will attempt to back slide as far as she can to see what I will tolerate. I'm done tolerating though. I spent the last decade tolerating and my tolerance is all gone. As I have learned here: if she wants to fuck me, she will. If she doesn't want to, I don't want her to anyway. Have you set any kind of internal time frame for when she needs to put up or shut up? Setting such a checkpoint helped me tremendously.
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Post by nyctos on Sept 27, 2018 16:41:05 GMT -5
H, some women have it in their mind that the guy has to do the initiating 95-99% of the time. I don't think anyone can change that mindset . Wife is definitely of that mindset, though we might need to raise it by a percentage point. I could initiate all the time if she'd drop a hint that she wanted to. Of course, for that she'd have to actually want to. She could even just wear sexy lingerie, she had a drawer full that's brand new, never worn.
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Post by h on Sept 27, 2018 17:53:16 GMT -5
She knows exactly why I took it down. That's why she didn't talk to me the rest of the night. She is acutely aware of my reason and it pissed her off. What I WANT is to be desired. If I'm the one initiating all the time then she is not showing me that she desires me. I'll forgive the misunderstanding since you're new here but over the last several months, W and I have been talking much more directly. I have made my needs clear and have directly told her that I was not happy with our limited intimate life. She has shown some willingness to try and improve and I have emphatically praised her for that. In the last few weeks though, she has started pushing back and returning to her old avoidance tactics. I think of it as a negotiation phase where she will attempt to back slide as far as she can to see what I will tolerate. I'm done tolerating though. I spent the last decade tolerating and my tolerance is all gone. As I have learned here: if she wants to fuck me, she will. If she doesn't want to, I don't want her to anyway. Have you set any kind of internal time frame for when she needs to put up or shut up? Setting such a checkpoint helped me tremendously. My timeframe is more of a "moneyframe" which I discussed in another thread somewhere. In summary: I'm working on setting myself up for an exit and have several financial goals involving reducing my debt/income ratio. I need my monthly expenses to be below a certain percentage of my after tax income so I can afford to pay the alimony that I know will be required. Her income is significantly less than mine and I have some legal information from a workplace group legal plan to base my numbers on. I'm also working on saving a nest egg for legal fees and the inevitable large payout for my freedom. Once my math works out, I will file. I'm making measurable progress each month and at least have that to hope for. She has until then to prove me wrong and turn it around. Whichever event happens first is what I'll be doing.
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Post by Dan on Sept 28, 2018 8:51:44 GMT -5
So, does your refuser actually remember the last time you had sex? Do they have wildly different ideas about it from reality? I don't think mine would remember. I do: July 2015. If you can even call that encounter "sex": there was nakedness and some amount of genital contact, but in all it was a pretty poor showing (on both our parts). But it was SUCH a poor showing... I pretty much gave up then and there. "I wouldn't be surprised if that was the last time we'll ever have sex." This has become self-fulfilled, in that my desire for her is now zero. I don't even initiate cuddling or hand-holding now. (Which is a HUGE change for me. I'm definitely the touchy-feely-romantic type.) I recall she has tried to initiate twice in the 3 years since then. Both times it caused me to freeze up and cry. My heart is just not in it (with her). But I think she would say: "Well, at least I tried. Two whole times! The ball is in his court now. At least he can't blame our sexlessness on me now." Well, she is right: I don't "blame" it on her, per se. I have come to a place of neutral acceptance: "we just weren't sexually compatible." A bit of a dodge, maybe, but it is easier for me to accept that story than to carry around the poison of a constant state of blaming her.
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johannesfactotum
Junior Member
Behold the field in which I grow my fucks! Lay thine eyes upon it and ye shall see that it is barren
Posts: 42
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by johannesfactotum on Sept 28, 2018 20:29:04 GMT -5
Tonight, just now actually, I had a conversation with my refusing wife. I told her the definition of a sexless marriage (10 times a year) and asked her how long we've been in one. She countered that we had sex last year. The thing is, she's wrong. The last time we had sex was July 2015, but she wouldn't believe that. She insisted we have sex at least once a year. I tried telling her I knew it was 2015 because that's when I gave up. It didn't convince her. I tried mentioning the last time she initiated (August 2011, Marriott hotel in Virginia - she admitted she didn't remember, and asked why she needs to initiate). The thing that really strikes me is that she's utterly convinced we had sex last year. I have much more reason to remember. I go through each year thinking, "well, that's another year". So, does your refuser actually remember the last time you had sex? Do they have wildly different ideas about it from reality? My STBX was either completely delusional or a pathological liar about how frequently we used to have sex. I caught her lying to her cousin on the phone about our frequency. She told her we had sex a couple of times per week, when by that point we hadn't had sex for 18 months. I called her out about it right then, and her cousin got an earful about what a liar she was. I shut down any social media postings of hers where she stated or implied that we had an active sex life. She actually tried to gaslight me by telling me that she was positive we had sex weekly, like I'd been banging her in a fugue state or something. I accused her of cheating then, because if she was having sex it certainly wasn't with me, and she learned to shut up about that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 21:58:25 GMT -5
Either my ex didn’t recall or was gaslighting me. I suspect the latter. He regularly lied about when we’d had sex, to the point I wondered the same as johannesfactotum - who /was/ he having sex with? Because it sure wasn’t me.
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Post by choosinghappy on Sept 29, 2018 8:25:14 GMT -5
My ex remembered. When we were in therapy he was the one who came right out and said that we hadn’t had sex since conceiving our son. He acknowledged it was a problem, HIS problem, and that he knew that that was why I was so unhappy. It was sad to sit there and hear him acknowledge the problem but also that he didn’t feel capable of fixing it. There was no denial in our marriage, just no way he could see that he would desire sex or intimacy with me. He didn’t say that in so many words but that was the gist. Sobering as hell.
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Post by nyctos on Sept 29, 2018 12:57:22 GMT -5
My ex remembered. When we were in therapy he was the one who came right out and said that we hadn’t had sex since conceiving our son. He acknowledged it was a problem, HIS problem, and that he knew that that was why I was so unhappy. It was sad to sit there and hear him acknowledge the problem but also that he didn’t feel capable of fixing it. There was no denial in our marriage, just no way he could see that he would desire sex or intimacy with me. He didn’t say that in so many words but that was the gist. Sobering as hell. That must have hurt a lot, choosinghappy
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