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Post by workingonit on Aug 23, 2018 14:29:02 GMT -5
ironhamster my kids would not be surprised if we separate/divorce. I would like to wait until they are adults until I tell them why though. It seems like heavy information to share, no?
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 23, 2018 15:56:23 GMT -5
ironhamster my kids would not be surprised if we separate/divorce. I would like to wait until they are adults until I tell them why though. It seems like heavy information to share, no? Ummm..No. You may be surprised when your teens open up to you and tell you just how much today's society has already taught them about sex, intimacy, affairs, dating, what boys want what girls want, etc.... Puberty is happening much earlier with today's youth,and they are inundated with it since part of their anatomy is now the cell phone. ( spoken from a father of 6 -all teens at the same time) They know much more than you think they know, including how dad treats mom.
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Post by ironhamster on Aug 23, 2018 16:00:44 GMT -5
ironhamster my kids would not be surprised if we separate/divorce. I would like to wait until they are adults until I tell them why though. It seems like heavy information to share, no? Yes. It is heavy. It is all very heavy. There are a lot of heavy things my kids go through and I want clear open loving channels of communication with them. In my case, my eldest had planned to marry early, and before anything was public, but I had to give her my take on guidelines regarding what was acceptable and what was not in a marriage. I told her things in code, like, if I could not give my wife what she needed, I'd beg her to find somebody that could. Whatever was unclear about that became crystal clear to her when the divorce became imminent. Little did I know, by that time my eldest had issues in her marriage, and, after dealing with it for about a year opted to end the marriage early. She had gotten criticism from my family for marrying so young, but, I can't fault her. She took responsibility for her mistake quickly, instead of waiting two decades like some of her critics. My younger daughter is bisexual, and could end up with a female partner just as easily as a male. Her mother has tried to convince her otherwise, which I feel is only going to lead to frustration. She needs to figure out what her future is going to look like. Heck, I have seen at least one example here where the refusing husband turned out to be gay. I do not want to turn my daughter or her potential husband into a victim of sexless marriage because they were pushed into a relationship that could not meet their needs. If you can find a way, even if you have to speak it in code, and without judgement, let them know. It might save them from the same fate.
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Post by jamesbonding on Aug 23, 2018 23:55:31 GMT -5
ironhamster my kids would not be surprised if we separate/divorce. I would like to wait until they are adults until I tell them why though. It seems like heavy information to share, no? Yes. It is heavy. It is all very heavy. There are a lot of heavy things my kids go through and I want clear open loving channels of communication with them. If you can find a way, even if you have to speak it in code, and without judgement, let them know. It might save them from the same fate. ironhamster I don't see what the point is of speaking in code. Speak plainly, avoid misunderstanding.
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Post by ironhamster on Aug 24, 2018 17:11:23 GMT -5
Yes. It is heavy. It is all very heavy. There are a lot of heavy things my kids go through and I want clear open loving channels of communication with them. If you can find a way, even if you have to speak it in code, and without judgement, let them know. It might save them from the same fate. ironhamster I don't see what the point is of speaking in code. Speak plainly, avoid misunderstanding. It's probably not a good idea to tell the kids directly that you are outsourcing. Giving examples of when outsourcing may be permissible puts the idea in their head from a neutral nonjudgemental point of view. It also gives you an opportunity for open dialog if they disagree.
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Post by flounder on Aug 24, 2018 18:12:28 GMT -5
Hard to answer. My father left my mother for another woman when I was a baby. My mother worked three jobs and went to community college while I was growing up. I rarely saw her except late at night when she picked me up. My grandparents raised me,and they slept in separate rooms. I never saw them being affectionate,but he was never really home. He was a farmer and oversaw his local firehouse as the chief. He only came home to eat and sleep,and then back to the station or out to the field.
He was the only male role model I ever had in my life and that wasn’t much. I never saw him get angry or raise his voice to my grandmother. He cried when she passed,but he rarely showed emotion at all.
All I ever knew was I didn’t want to be like my father and abandon my children. Maybe that’s why I’m staying now. My determination to be there for them and not leave them is stronger than anything else.
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Post by elkclan2 on Aug 30, 2018 8:55:43 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure my mother is a refuser - she doesn't really care about anyone else's needs. I think both of her marriages - to my dad and her 2nd husband were sexless - at least in some time periods.
Of course, my dad was a pretty bad alcoholic when I was a kid so I can't entirely blame her for that. She once told me that if she'd been younger she'd have changed her prescription for anti-depressants because the one she was on killed her libido, and I remember thinking - ok that's fine for you, but what about your husband.
I'm also pretty sure that my ex's parents had relationship troubles. His mother is one of the least affectionate people I've ever seen (I'm pretty sure she has aspergers).She is also verbally abusive to everyone in the family. They lived apart for many years and he had at least two affairs that I know of. One lasted for six years. At one point I realised that our marriage was the same as his parents' just gender reversed.
However, I don't think kids are great judges of what happens in parents' bedrooms necessarily. My aunt got it in her head that her mother and father never had sex. She tried to get my mother, me, and her two daughters to ask him if they had sex. We all refused to do that of course and said "If you want to know so bad, ask him yourself." She did - in front of us - his response "OF COURSE we did. And that is that last we will be talking about that."
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Post by twotimesone on Aug 30, 2018 16:08:54 GMT -5
My mom and dad always fight about everything. We all know that they stayed in the marriage because of the kids and I was surprised that they divorced when I was in my 30's. My W came from a relatively well tight knit family and they do things together. I admired their family for that and thought that our marriage would be the same thing. Between the mind fking, SM, and she threatened divorce and blamed me for the 'bad influence' from my family. Even later my in laws told me that my W have some issues. In any case, I don't plan to stay when the kids are out of the coop.
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Post by seekinganswers on Aug 31, 2018 16:14:21 GMT -5
It’s interesting to hear all the different back stories. Past relationships is another big influence, I know it was for me. I asked the question partly out of curiosity and partly because I’ve been wrestling with the idea of what is better for my son, under my particular circumstances. I definitely understand situations where it is far better for the kids to divorce. And despite so much advice against staying for the kids, I’m still not sure that applies to me. I wonder if the benefits of staying together outweigh the benefits of leaving for my son. We have a peaceful, respectful home. We have fun together as a family unit. I know I’ll never be slow dancing in the living room with my husband, but if we can get to a point where we either accept our deal or get to a more fulfilling place I think he won’t be seeing totally unhappy parents. Even now, he sees us happy. I’m happy around him. Actually, that’s the other piece. Staying for him is sort of staying for myself too, because I want that stability for him. I just don’t know if I’d have the assurance that this is better for him in the long run. If I felt that, I can see leaving a bit clearer.
In all of this, also in the work I’m doing with my husband, I’m wrestling with the question of: what is the line between honoring my vows/ making sacrifices and compromises/ being the best parent I can be, and betraying myself/ living for other people/ robbing myself of a fulfilling life.
I honestly don’t know what is selfish. Is it selfish to stay? Selfish to leave? I want to do what’s best for my husband and my son, even more than myself, and I don’t even know what that is.
And before I get pounced on, I’m not saying any of this DESPITE what my husband thinks and feels. I’ve been very transparent lately and we’ve had some really honest and open conversations. I’m just trying to figure out where I stand. The back and forth is exhausting...
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Post by baza on Aug 31, 2018 18:41:53 GMT -5
Stay for the kids.....Leave for the kids. There's no "right" answer. I would respectfully disagree with this line of thought however (quoting you here) - "I want to do what’s best for my husband and my son, even more than myself". These highly difficult choices you face must, by necessity, be in YOUR longer term best interests. Your husband, your kid(s) are sidebars to the process. Important sidebars for sure, but sidebars none the less. This choice you are facing is YOURS. Not your husbands, not your kid(s). And you can, with a bit of imagination, accomomodate the needs of your husband and kids in your choice - albeit, not completely. Plenty of examples in these pages of split couples successfully co-parenting. The choice you make has to be in your longer term best interests, or else it will not work properly. The resentment will get you if you choose a course that is not in your best longer term interests. But getting back to that quote, above... and let me apologise in advance for this harsh observation... Is it at all possible that you see your way forward to be a martyr ? To sacrifice your aspirations to accomodate the needs of others ? Is that perception really important to you ? Again, sorry for the bluntness, but it is really hard to see that way forward as being in your longer term best interests. But it may provide some short term relief. Feeling for you as you wrestle with this choice. My only suggestion is that you make your choice on a basis of what is in your longer term best interests...where you want to be in 3 months time, 6 months, a year, 5 years time. Whatever you choose, if the choice is made on a basis of being in the best long term interests of seekinganswers , then you can't go too far wrong. Indeed, acting as the authentic and real seekinganswers is far more likely to enhance assorted relationships, longer term, than it is to deplete them. Choice. It's a bitch. But no-one gets a pass on it.
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Post by seekinganswers on Sept 1, 2018 8:50:23 GMT -5
Thanks, baza. What you said really struck a chord. I definitely have an issue with putting my needs out there. Certainly with putting my needs first. I realized I have codependent tendencies in my last relationship with the narcissistic/borderline guy (my personal diagnosis of both). That was the most severe example, but I can look back and see how I haven’t put my needs first. I haven’t had a strong sense of self. I’m super laid back, was always a good kid, got good grades, did what was expected of me, etc. But I can see how there’s something deeper going on. I started to read an article on codependency that greatcoastal posted. I need to go back and finish it, but there was a part about being a good baby and not crying for your needs. This was so me. And to the idea of this thread- the example my mom set was to put others needs first. So it’s already an uncomfortable notion to put my needs first, made even more difficult by the fact that this is all based on my own feelings. My own mistakes. There is no one to blame but myself. No one is treating me badly, disrespecting me, creating a toxic environment for my son. I’d be causing so many people pain merely based on my own selfish needs. But I hear time and time again what you said, baza. The advice is always to put your own oxygen mask on first, so to speak. At the same time, there are people in my life and on here, like @choosinghappy, who have such a strong sense of self and honor their needs. And I’m always like, hell yeah. Good for you. That’s how it should be. I admire that so much. I can see that for others, but somehow not myself. I feel like I’m rambling, but I’m just putting all this together. Thanks baza.
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Post by baza on Sept 1, 2018 23:39:50 GMT -5
Be assured Sister seekinganswers that people here who may appear to - "have such a strong sense of self and honor their needs" - did not - usually - arrive here in this state. We are ALL "works in progress" and there is not even one of us who has got ALL their shit sorted out.
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Post by workingonit on Sept 1, 2018 23:49:00 GMT -5
Be assured Sister seekinganswers that people here who may appear to - "have such a strong sense of self and honor their needs" - did not - usually - arrive here in this state. We are ALL "works in progress" and there is not even one of us who has got ALL their shit sorted out. Amen to that!!
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Post by choosinghappy on Sept 8, 2018 6:09:57 GMT -5
Be assured Sister seekinganswers that people here who may appear to - "have such a strong sense of self and honor their needs" - did not - usually - arrive here in this state. We are ALL "works in progress" and there is not even one of us who has got ALL their shit sorted out. Haha YES! seekinganswers I appreciate your comment but feel free to read my earliest posts from a little over a year ago and you’ll see how in denial I was about my SM. Having a strong sense of self, honoring your needs: they are all things that need to be worked on. And you are well on your way. I feel like you have more clarity than most who start here. But unfortunately it still doesn’t make your decision any easier! Sending virtual hugs as you work through this. (And real hugs soon! 😁)
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Post by solodriver on Sept 8, 2018 12:15:06 GMT -5
Yes! I've worked through the denial I had about my SM situation and faced it with the reality of what my relationship has been and what it will always be. And the only way for me to have what I need is to change ME. No amount of talking to my refuser spouse has made any difference. I had to face the painful reality, that although in the past she loved me, she no longer does and hasn't for a very long time. I've learned that marriage doesn't mean the person you married will always love you, even though that's what they promised to do. That is a very painful reality to have to deal with. But once you do accept that reality, you can move forward with what you need to do to get what you need and not accept what you currently have.
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