I think that "staying" itself is of two major flavors:
I'm staying, period. I'm going to get by somehow: change what I can in my spouse, change what I can in me to be happier. But I'm really permanently, unequivocally staying.
I'm staying.... for now. Not sure if and when I'll pull the trigger... but I sure do think about it.
Note that both flavors have their upsides and downsides:
If you are definitely staying, well, you are now past the point of having to decide, so that is settled. Now you just have to learn to cope with your decision.
If you are "staying for now", that means you are on the fence. Not only do you have to "cope for now", but you are continuously reevaluating your options, your plans. You are continually second guessing yourself. Wondering if a positive movement in your spouse is the start of a trend, fleeting, or even disingenuous.
Post by workingonit on Aug 10, 2018 8:51:10 GMT -5
I am also in the second category and it does indeed suck. Of course, all paths have the things that suck about them surely. But the feeling pretty darn sure you are leaving but are choosing to stay for now is unsettling. I dont like it!!
My advice (the poetic phrasing borrows from some religious writings I am familiar with):
When finding and following your path out of the Valley of Sexlessness, do not tarry in the mountain pass of Indecision for too long: the buffeting winds tax the mind and soul.
And yet, while oh so draining, there is something cleansing about those winds as well. My wife is going to have to deal with our divorce after I tell her about it; I've been mentally preparing for it for quite a while.
These situations are NOT where you are standing off to one side and taking a look at 2 new paths you could take.
The fact is that you are already on one of the paths, and have been for quite a while.
That choice was one you made a while back. That's your current reality, that's what you are living right here and now. You are not, really, "sitting on the fence". Both feet are firmly in the "staying camp" That's where you are - that's the reality - and you own that.
The "leaving camp" is just an abstract concept that you may or may not explore further. You haven't actually got a foot in that camp at this moment.
However, this is actually a good, if not great position to be in. There is no ambiguity to it, and you know exactly where you are at this moment in time. And that's terrific. If you know where you are, then you have excellent prospects of negotiating toward where you want to be, whereas if you do NOT know exactly where you are right now, you don't have much chance at all of finding your way forward.
And, the question actually gets simpler.
Without taking ownership and responsibility for your choice, the conundrum is "do I stay or do I go" and that tends to become an elliptical question that goes around and around in circles. It pre-supposes that you have 2 brand new options to consider, which isn't actually so. The "staying" option has already been taken. It is not a 'new' choice for you to consider, It's already your reality.
But under the model where you have taken ownership and responsibility for your pre-existing choice to stay, the question is "do I continue doing what I've been doing or not ?" That, is a way simpler question, as it takes what you are already doing - staying - out of the picture as far as being a new option for you.
If you are in an ILIASM deal, then the reality is that you have stayed. And if you have stayed, then staying further is not a "new" option. It's your present reality which you might, or might not re-affirm as your chosen path.
Post by workingonit on Aug 15, 2018 8:41:42 GMT -5
I agree baza and that is empowering in some ways to look at the fact that we are choosing to stay. However there is the inertia factor. Meaning we all chose to get married. That choice put us on a path. It is not always an active choice to keep on that path- sometimes it is passive, possibly even most of the time. For analogy I feel better when I do not eat sugar. I chose years ago to stop eating sugar. You can say that everytime I am presented with cake I actively make a choice not to eat it. But really I do not because I already made that choice and I don't see it as a choice anymore. I am not tempted, I don't think about how it would taste. It is literally not even a consideration- I just don't eat it.
I would similarly argue that there is a big difference between firmly planted on the staying side of the fence and someone who is pretty continually peeking over the fence to the other side. Those that are not looking over the fence, either passively or actively, are not the same as those of glued to the eye holes we have drilled in the fence!
For the sugar analogy it would be as if I were considering eating the sugar every time I was near it and had to choose not to all over agian. You could argue that I DO choose all over again but I would argue that my experience of it is different.
Actively choosing to stay, passively not choosing, staying but suddenly realizing there is a choice and actively considering it. All different in my mind
I read somewhere, recently, that some researchers reckon that we make something like 17,000 choices every day. Obviously a heap of them we do on 'auto-pilot (like your sugar avoidance)
I won't argue the toss with you on this one Sister workingonit - it's 1.46am in my jurisdiction and I am choosing to go to bed by 2am !!
But clearly, there has to be a crossover period "between being a stayer" and "not being a stayer" any longer. And that would not, can not, and will not be done in one fell swoop. But I reckon that if you are presently in an ILIASM deal, you ARE a stayer. If you are pro-actively checking out "not being a stayer" then that is probably the crossover point. Around about there, you either re-affirm your position as a stayer, or start making your move to not being a stayer. Until then, I reckon you are a stayer. Peeking through the fence doesn't count, you're still that side of the fence. Climbing over the fence counts.
Enjoyed reading the case you advanced. I'll think on it some more.
PS - I am not suggesting there be a stampede to climb over the fence either. There could be perfectly good reasons to re-affirm the choice to stay. It is a perfectly legitimate choice. But you have to own it, same as those who choose 'not staying'.
workingonit, I suppose it’s a spectrum, since nothing here is black or white, and everyone has different factors involved. Some points along that spectrum that I see:
Committed, ‘come Hell or high water’; no alternatives to be considered. This is a lot like your sugar analogy, where you reached a conclusion long ago and there’s no re-evaluation; it’s not up for debate.
Actively choosing to stay, but divorce isn’t an impossibility. There’s some regular re-assessment going on here. Perhaps with a fair bit of anxiety.
Passively staying, perhaps because it isn’t “too bad to stay”. Unhappy, but not enough to consider divorce.
I’d argue that all of these gradients (and more) have a common thread - a desire to stay. Which generally means needing to cope, and often wanting to improve things. Thus, this section.
Post by tooyoungtobeold on Aug 16, 2018 15:24:01 GMT -5
To expand just a little with the stay or stay dichotomy is that if we're no longer really working to "fix" our sexless marriage then we must recognize that an equilibrium has been reached. There are many days/weeks/months where the equilibrium of the relationship seems fine....I'm a stayer. What I find lately is that when something disrupts the equilibrium (currently wife and daughter-19 aren't getting along) then I find myself questioning everything. That is, as mentioned, exhausting. I need something in reserve but feel like i'm running on empty all the time.
I figure that if you are in an ILIASM deal, that you are doing one of three things.
#1 - you are staying and accepting the situation and perhaps venting about it now and then to try and relieve some pressure. #2 - you are staying and trying to change the situation from within. #3 - you are staying and examining the theory of "not staying", casually, or perhaps seriously.
But you ARE staying. And that is a perfectly legitimate choice to make.
Now, some "stayers" who have been examining the theory of "not staying" seriously, perhaps to the extent that they start doing something about it - say by seeing a lawyer in their jurisdiction - start to change direction, but even at this stage they are still staying
The crossover point comes when the stayer has fully checked out the "not staying" option and so with that information AND the first hand information they know about the "staying" option they can make a fully informed choice. It is at THIS point, it could be said that they have a foot in either camp. Up to this point they've had both feet in the staying camp.
And, as often as not, their choice is to retreat back to the "staying" camp (a perfectly legitimate thing to do) as they are not ready for the turmoil "not staying" involves, short term.
What I am driving at here is that you are "staying" right up to the point where you aren't. You haven't got a foot in both camps until such time as you have a viable alternative to staying, and a huge choice to make...and even then that doesn't mean you are going to "not stay".
Staying is the natural order of things in here. That's what most people do.
worksforme2: hey nancyb, how are things perkolating with the older gentleman you spoke of a while back?
Jul 28, 2018 18:25:32 GMT -5
nancyb: worksforme2: Relationship died when we had a difference in opinion regarding UFO's and extraterrestrial beings. LOL I weighed in on the nay side and he believed they walk amongst us.
Jul 30, 2018 5:51:07 GMT -5
bc: I can’t stop laughing...go ahead, micromanage and analyze that marriage and see what she will do for you.
Jul 30, 2018 8:17:58 GMT -5
Dan: I think I'd have to see how good a new girlfriend was in the sack before I crossed her off the list -- or kicked her out of bed -- for believing in UFOs. I guess that makes me... male!
Jul 30, 2018 21:25:05 GMT -5
solodriver: It's been so long for me, I might see UFOs my first time. lol
Jul 31, 2018 1:42:47 GMT -5
beachguy: nancyb: He's right. It's all in the X Files, if you care to look.
Jul 31, 2018 3:45:13 GMT -5
nancyb: Dan: It was a tough decision, he was a good lover but the craziness ended things. Been dating since but nothing serious. I paint a lot.
Jul 31, 2018 5:57:00 GMT -5
petrushka: Thing is, someone being a fruit-loop about something like UFOs usually is not confined to one area; even if it is not immediately obvious. People who are nutty about one thing can go off at a tangent any time, I found (...out the hard way).
Jul 31, 2018 7:39:29 GMT -5
greatcoastal: nancyb: Sounds like you Identified a Fucking Object for what it truly is!
Jul 31, 2018 8:25:25 GMT -5
worksforme2: nancyb,...I am going to paint my living room soon as I can decide on the color.
Jul 31, 2018 19:15:08 GMT -5
worksforme2: When it comes to UFO's we always hear about "little green men", why are there never any "little green women"?
Aug 1, 2018 6:21:15 GMT -5
solodriver: I think I recall an episode of "Lost In Space where Dr. Smith was being chased by a green woman
Aug 1, 2018 21:29:17 GMT -5