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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 12:10:33 GMT -5
TL2 is right on. I left the board for some months because my own situation was that I'm not planning on leaving. When you aren't planning on leaving then all of the stories here aren't all that helpful in the "try not to be resentful" department : ).
Maintaining intimacy of some sort in the complete or relative absence of a marriage bed isn't easy. In my own case, my wife is quite avoidant so her needs for any kind of intimacy are small. Mine aren't. Once again, her needs for intimacy of any kind are being met. Mine aren't. You owe it to yourself to be honest with everyone involved. Polite acquaintances are nice but nothing to build a life on.
It's pretty damn easy to let decades go by and the life you've built it too valuable to tear down but isn't really the one you long for.
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Post by seekinganswers on Aug 3, 2018 5:49:01 GMT -5
timeforliving2, thank you so much for weighing in on my situation and for all the valuable insight. I appreciate the concrete references you forwarded. I only have the Love Languages book out of everything you recommended, so I’ll look into everything else. You also asked some very direct questions that I don’t have clear answers for, but it will be a good exercise for me to try to answer them. It’s all so complicated and overwhelming. There are the very real, fair warnings from northstarmom and @tooyoungtobeold and others here, paired with your story of hope. I have some more soul searching to do. It's crazy you bring up the analogy of cancer. My therapist said the exact same thing in my individual session yesterday. We haven't been able to get in for a couples session in awhile, and I was defending my husband because he's been so busy with work, which is at least partly true because he's actually out of town a lot. But she said the same thing, if he had cancer he would find the time for treatment. And that he needs to understand the urgency of the situation, which is my job to express. So that makes me feel better about her as our therapist based on your warnings. I think I've grown with her personally, but there's only so much she can do when we don't talk. Also, I'm turning 40 this spring, and it would be great to not enter a new decade of life under these conditions...there's a pretty clear deadline for me.
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Post by shamwow on Aug 3, 2018 8:51:58 GMT -5
My business partner and I had a conversation on a vacation a few years back.
As it turns out we were both in sexless marriages. Divorce was discussed as a serious option for each of us. Because we were business partners we felt we should disclose. Because we are friends we wanted each others counsel.
I opted with divorce. He opted for staying and trying to fix his marriage. Their marriage is better today but not entirely satisfying either. The jury is still out as to whether the "fixed" Marriage sticks or eventually goes bust.
But the key here is that BOTH sides REALLY made an effort and WANTED things to get better. This meant he had to continue to be understanding and that she had to be intimate at times when she really didn't want to (ie "duty sex").
It seems to work for them. For me, seeing what it is like to live again? It would be agony. But to each their own.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 6, 2018 12:18:35 GMT -5
timeforliving2 , thank you so much for weighing in on my situation and for all the valuable insight. I appreciate the concrete references you forwarded. I only have the Love Languages book out of everything you recommended, so I’ll look into everything else. You also asked some very direct questions that I don’t have clear answers for, but it will be a good exercise for me to try to answer them. It’s all so complicated and overwhelming. There are the very real, fair warnings from northstarmom and @tooyoungtobeold and others here, paired with your story of hope. I have some more soul searching to do. It's crazy you bring up the analogy of cancer. My therapist said the exact same thing in my individual session yesterday. We haven't been able to get in for a couples session in awhile, and I was defending my husband because he's been so busy with work, which is at least partly true because he's actually out of town a lot. But she said the same thing, if he had cancer he would find the time for treatment. And that he needs to understand the urgency of the situation, which is my job to express. So that makes me feel better about her as our therapist based on your warnings. I think I've grown with her personally, but there's only so much she can do when we don't talk. Also, I'm turning 40 this spring, and it would be great to not enter a new decade of life under these conditions...there's a pretty clear deadline for me. You're welcome. You mention turning age 40 this spring.... Sometimes these calendar items are what we need to push forward and resolve to do something different. I can relate, and FWIW I was a bit older when I held firm and insisted upon changing / stopping our SM. I was approaching my 20 yr anniversary still in a SM I knew I could not celebrate a "fake" anniversary like that with family if there was no intimacy / no love felt anymore. I didn't know what a SM was / wasn't aware of the widespread problem around our 5 year, 10 year, or 15 year anniversary... but I certainly wish I had known sooner so I could have fixed it sooner.
Best of luck with your soul searching. Share your specific thoughts / impetus for change (e.g. turning 40) with your therapist / counselor and your H. When I was at my breaking point and felt our marriage was about to end / I knew this was a dealbreaker, I held nothing back in terms or my thoughts. I was not yelling or arguing, etc.... but I put everything on the table about what I was feeling and why. I tied this in to our upcoming anniversary, and in your case, to tie it into turning age 40, is perfect. Be bold and tell everyone that you're going to start a new chapter, one way or another. :-)
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 6, 2018 12:27:12 GMT -5
*** Maintaining intimacy of some sort in the complete or relative absence of a marriage bed isn't easy. In my own case, my wife is quite avoidant so her needs for any kind of intimacy are small. Mine aren't. Once again, her needs for intimacy of any kind are being met. Mine aren't. *** Tooyoung - Are you giving your W kisses and hugs? Holding hands? Backrubs / footrubs, etc.? Any kind of physical connection or affirmation?
If those types of things are "enough" for your W to be happy / emotionally connected with you, then I recommend stopping it.... until you go to couples counseling and get the SM resolved. That's what I did and it worked. I told my W at the time: "I will no longer kiss you, or hug you, until we go to counseling and get our issues resolved". It worked. I didn't want to do anything for her that made her feel "comfortable" in the relationship. I needed to rock the boat a bit so that she felt uncomfortable too. And I did it in a way where I didn't seem like a jerk... I tied my refusal of kisses and hugs into the fact that we were to go to counseling to fix things.
TL2
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 14:16:28 GMT -5
*** Maintaining intimacy of some sort in the complete or relative absence of a marriage bed isn't easy. In my own case, my wife is quite avoidant so her needs for any kind of intimacy are small. Mine aren't. Once again, her needs for intimacy of any kind are being met. Mine aren't. *** Tooyoung - Are you giving your W kisses and hugs? Holding hands? Backrubs / footrubs, etc.? Any kind of physical connection or affirmation?
If those types of things are "enough" for your W to be happy / emotionally connected with you, then I recommend stopping it.... until you go to couples counseling and get the SM resolved. That's what I did and it worked. I told my W at the time: "I will no longer kiss you, or hug you, until we go to counseling and get our issues resolved". It worked. I didn't want to do anything for her that made her feel "comfortable" in the relationship. I needed to rock the boat a bit so that she felt uncomfortable too. And I did it in a way where I didn't seem like a jerk... I tied my refusal of kisses and hugs into the fact that we were to go to counseling to fix things.
TL2
So you found couples counseling to be valuable? How? What things were you trying to fix? If you subscribe to the overall iliasm approach then SM wasn't your problem but everything else was so where did you start?
I'm currently not trying to fix anything. My wife wanted a sexless marriage and she got it. Once menopause and pain were involved she could have either chosen to do something (see her doctor) to try and continue to have sex or do nothing. She chose nothing. I redecorated one of our other bedrooms and moved out politely (it was during a time when I was doing a certain amount of work in Europe so I was up working at 2AM when their workday began) and stayed moved out. My marriage isn't awful, it's just sexless. I'm not willing to trade what I have which is 90% OK to reach for a 10% myth at 51 years old. Someone made the "leaving has to stand on its own" point recently and I agree with that. Leaving doesn't stand on its own so I'll stay. Can I provide cautionary information to others? Sure but that's about it.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 7, 2018 11:27:42 GMT -5
Tooyoung - Are you giving your W kisses and hugs? Holding hands? Backrubs / footrubs, etc.? Any kind of physical connection or affirmation?
If those types of things are "enough" for your W to be happy / emotionally connected with you, then I recommend stopping it.... until you go to couples counseling and get the SM resolved. That's what I did and it worked. I told my W at the time: "I will no longer kiss you, or hug you, until we go to counseling and get our issues resolved". It worked. I didn't want to do anything for her that made her feel "comfortable" in the relationship. I needed to rock the boat a bit so that she felt uncomfortable too. And I did it in a way where I didn't seem like a jerk... I tied my refusal of kisses and hugs into the fact that we were to go to counseling to fix things.
TL2
So you found couples counseling to be valuable? How? What things were you trying to fix? If you subscribe to the overall iliasm approach then SM wasn't your problem but everything else was so where did you start?
I'm currently not trying to fix anything. My wife wanted a sexless marriage and she got it. Once menopause and pain were involved she could have either chosen to do something (see her doctor) to try and continue to have sex or do nothing. She chose nothing. I redecorated one of our other bedrooms and moved out politely (it was during a time when I was doing a certain amount of work in Europe so I was up working at 2AM when their workday began) and stayed moved out. My marriage isn't awful, it's just sexless. I'm not willing to trade what I have which is 90% OK to reach for a 10% myth at 51 years old. Someone made the "leaving has to stand on its own" point recently and I agree with that. Leaving doesn't stand on its own so I'll stay. Can I provide cautionary information to others? Sure but that's about it.
After a nearly 20-year SM, I did just what I said above and essentially put counseling on the front burner. We had to deal with it. So for us counseling came before my W going through menopause (not there yet but close I'm sure). Prior to counseling my W and I were in an no-win / endless loop battle... kind of a which comes first, the chicken or the egg argument:
W: I don't want to have sex with you because I don't feel emotionally connected *enough* to you. ME: I am not emotionally connected with you because we never have sex!
Counseling helped us to get through that.
Communication is key to resolving anything. If you don't communicate well / each of you don't talk about your needs in a respectful way, then it's doubtful anything will change / you're leaving it all to chance.
You don't think a 10% myth (e.g. an improvement) to your marriage is possible, so you don't want to try couples counseling? Believe me, I understand where you are coming from, because I resisted going to couples counseling for many years. I thought that was only for "other people". My W and I are pretty smarty people, after all. We can go the cheaper route, read & discuss couples' books, and figure this out on our own without paying thousands of dollars to a counselor with no guarantee of fixing anything. Besides, my W will never change... she is so stubborn and strongwilled, especially over this issue. If she hasn't changed in 19 years, what could a counselor possibly do to change her mind?
That was my old thinking. My new / current thinking: I would give my entire life savings to go back in time to year 1 of our marriage and go to couples' counseling THEN so that we could have resolved this SM issue *as soon as possible*. Money can't buy happiness. The SM slowly corroded our marriage to the point where I was devoid of happiness and I was extremely depressed. If your marriage is not improving / getting better, then believe me, it's getting worse (even if slightly and slowly). They say that soldiers that go to war are forever changed people. I am also forever changed because of my prolonged SM experience. I never served in the military but I fought a 19 year battle over a basic, normal need in a marriage for regular physical intimacy and sex. My W never understood how important it was to me (and us as a couple) until an outside / independent expert (counselor) told her that it was so. *Then* she listened. Just like friends and family and children / teens won't listen to you, but when someone else with perceived expertise says the same thing, they now believe and listen!
Yes, I believe that counseling is *always* worth trying, even when you don't think it may help. I was so, so wrong for not trying it earlier / not believing earlier that it could help us / believing earlier that it would be a waste of money.
TL2
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 16:47:24 GMT -5
Yes, I believe that counseling is *always* worth trying, even when you don't think it may help. I was so, so wrong for not trying it earlier / not believing earlier that it could help us / believing earlier that it would be a waste of money. Another vote for “counseling is always worth trying.” It failed miserably in my SM (my STBX quit after 4-5 sessions, stating he could fix it himself), but even still, I’m glad we tried it. Leave no stone unturned. Marriage is worth it. I will always wish mine had worked out, but I’m not going to cry over it anymore, especially knowing that I did everything I knew to do to save it. Some things can’t be salvaged. You also have to know when to walk away.
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Post by shamwow on Aug 7, 2018 17:03:03 GMT -5
So you found couples counseling to be valuable? How? What things were you trying to fix? If you subscribe to the overall iliasm approach then SM wasn't your problem but everything else was so where did you start?
I'm currently not trying to fix anything. My wife wanted a sexless marriage and she got it. Once menopause and pain were involved she could have either chosen to do something (see her doctor) to try and continue to have sex or do nothing. She chose nothing. I redecorated one of our other bedrooms and moved out politely (it was during a time when I was doing a certain amount of work in Europe so I was up working at 2AM when their workday began) and stayed moved out. My marriage isn't awful, it's just sexless. I'm not willing to trade what I have which is 90% OK to reach for a 10% myth at 51 years old. Someone made the "leaving has to stand on its own" point recently and I agree with that. Leaving doesn't stand on its own so I'll stay. Can I provide cautionary information to others? Sure but that's about it.
After a nearly 20-year SM, I did just what I said above and essentially put counseling on the front burner. We had to deal with it. So for us counseling came before my W going through menopause (not there yet but close I'm sure). Prior to counseling my W and I were in an no-win / endless loop battle... kind of a which comes first, the chicken or the egg argument:
W: I don't want to have sex with you because I don't feel emotionally connected *enough* to you. ME: I am not emotionally connected with you because we never have sex!
Counseling helped us to get through that.
Communication is key to resolving anything. If you don't communicate well / each of you don't talk about your needs in a respectful way, then it's doubtful anything will change / you're leaving it all to chance.
You don't think a 10% myth (e.g. an improvement) to your marriage is possible, so you don't want to try couples counseling? Believe me, I understand where you are coming from, because I resisted going to couples counseling for many years. I thought that was only for "other people". My W and I are pretty smarty people, after all. We can go the cheaper route, read & discuss couples' books, and figure this out on our own without paying thousands of dollars to a counselor with no guarantee of fixing anything. Besides, my W will never change... she is so stubborn and strongwilled, especially over this issue. If she hasn't changed in 19 years, what could a counselor possibly do to change her mind?
That was my old thinking. My new / current thinking: I would give my entire life savings to go back in time to year 1 of our marriage and go to couples' counseling THEN so that we could have resolved this SM issue *as soon as possible*. Money can't buy happiness. The SM slowly corroded our marriage to the point where I was devoid of happiness and I was extremely depressed. If your marriage is not improving / getting better, then believe me, it's getting worse (even if slightly and slowly). They say that soldiers that go to war are forever changed people. I am also forever changed because of my prolonged SM experience. I never served in the military but I fought a 19 year battle over a basic, normal need in a marriage for regular physical intimacy and sex. My W never understood how important it was to me (and us as a couple) until an outside / independent expert (counselor) told her that it was so. *Then* she listened. Just like friends and family and children / teens won't listen to you, but when someone else with perceived expertise says the same thing, they now believe and listen!
Yes, I believe that counseling is *always* worth trying, even when you don't think it may help. I was so, so wrong for not trying it earlier / not believing earlier that it could help us / believing earlier that it would be a waste of money.
TL2
I'm disagree. I truly think it depends on the situation. In my case, mine was a bait and switch from day one. Manufactured "medical condition". Manufactured story of sexual abuse. Miraculous healing for baby making then mystery undiagnosed illness comes back. Last 13 years the words "I love you" didn't come out of her mouth without my prompting. Once the kids arrived my only purpose was as an ATM machine. Meanwhile I descended into full blown alcoholism to cope. It wasn't pretty. Couples counseling would have merely been another lap around gaslightville. When I announced divorce everyone recommended couples counseling. I refused. And in my case it was the right decision. Turning over every stone to save a marriage may be a good thing but not when you know those rocks will be used to continue to club you from behind.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 7, 2018 18:23:16 GMT -5
*** Yes, I believe that counseling is *always* worth trying, even when you don't think it may help. I was so, so wrong for not trying it earlier / not believing earlier that it could help us / believing earlier that it would be a waste of money.
TL2
I'm disagree. I truly think it depends on the situation. In my case, mine was a bait and switch from day one. Manufactured "medical condition". Manufactured story of sexual abuse. Miraculous healing for baby making then mystery undiagnosed illness comes back. Last 13 years the words "I love you" didn't come out of her mouth without my prompting. Once the kids arrived my only purpose was as an ATM machine. Meanwhile I descended into full blown alcoholism to cope. It wasn't pretty. Couples counseling would have merely been another lap around gaslightville. When I announced divorce everyone recommended couples counseling. I refused. And in my case it was the right decision. Turning over every stone to save a marriage may be a good thing but not when you know those rocks will be used to continue to club you from behind. Well, I think part of the value in trying counseling is that you can say to others later that "you tried". That being said... in your situation it sounds very extreme so I think your approach was a valid and reasonable one. On the flip side, if you wanted to be able to tell others later that "you tried", you could still go to counseling but then also have really high standards / dealbreakers / expectations (but still within the bounds of reasonableness)... criteria that you're pretty damn sure she will not be able to meet (especially with such a long history of bait and switch). If you tried counseling for a month, for example, and laid out all of your dealbreakers, etc., then the burden shifts over to her / the refuser / crazy person to try to make a reasonable effort on meeting your reasonable needs. If she can't do things that are reasonably expected in a marriage then she's even more so perceived as the "guilty" party and you look even better in the divorce (to family and friends).
Just my thoughts on another way to play it.
TL2
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Post by shamwow on Aug 8, 2018 6:47:47 GMT -5
I'm disagree. I truly think it depends on the situation. In my case, mine was a bait and switch from day one. Manufactured "medical condition". Manufactured story of sexual abuse. Miraculous healing for baby making then mystery undiagnosed illness comes back. Last 13 years the words "I love you" didn't come out of her mouth without my prompting. Once the kids arrived my only purpose was as an ATM machine. Meanwhile I descended into full blown alcoholism to cope. It wasn't pretty. Couples counseling would have merely been another lap around gaslightville. When I announced divorce everyone recommended couples counseling. I refused. And in my case it was the right decision. Turning over every stone to save a marriage may be a good thing but not when you know those rocks will be used to continue to club you from behind. Well, I think part of the value in trying counseling is that you can say to others later that "you tried". That being said... in your situation it sounds very extreme so I think your approach was a valid and reasonable one. On the flip side, if you wanted to be able to tell others later that "you tried", you could still go to counseling but then also have really high standards / dealbreakers / expectations (but still within the bounds of reasonableness)... criteria that you're pretty damn sure she will not be able to meet (especially with such a long history of bait and switch). If you tried counseling for a month, for example, and laid out all of your dealbreakers, etc., then the burden shifts over to her / the refuser / crazy person to try to make a reasonable effort on meeting your reasonable needs. If she can't do things that are reasonably expected in a marriage then she's even more so perceived as the "guilty" party and you look even better in the divorce (to family and friends).
Just my thoughts on another way to play it.
TL2
When I was in my SM, I often did worry about what others thought. It is a huge factor as to why I never outsourced. I didn't want to look like the "bad guy" to other people. The funny part is when we told the kids, my ex and I sent out texts to family and friends letting everyone know. We called those of them we were closest to. All expressed sympathy. None assigned "blame". And then they all went back to watching American Idol or whatever they had been doing before we gave them the news. Five minutes of thought at max is what our average family member or friend really put into it. If you don't believe me, think about a friend or family member who is divorced and how much you've thought about it (non drama divorces that is). So the "I tried everything" benchmark mainly exists within our own heads. That isn't to say it's meaningless. Being able to walk out with your "head held high" may be quite important. That is one reason that I never outsourced. So that if I ever left I wouldn't be a "bad guy". But make no mistake, my SM was turning me into a hard drinking, porn addicted, workaholic piece of shit. I was angry all the time, and it was getting increasingly harder to keep the lid on the pressure cooker. I was being transformed into an ACTUAL bad guy. No amount of couples counseling was going to fix that. And in the end almost nobody cares that I didn't give couples counseling a whirl. However, I do think individual therapy can be huge for people.
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Post by hopingforachange on Aug 8, 2018 8:13:13 GMT -5
I would also wonder baza how many turn arounds are based on rekindling sexual chemistry that used to be there vs developing a sexual connection that was always a bit weak. My non scientific guess is that creating a new attraction after years of marriage is even more rare. I am curious about that actually. How many here started out great but lost the sexual connection vs how many here never really had it. Perhaps an baza poll?? 🙋♀️. We started off great - and it was about 3-4 years total - 2 with first baby. I will say - red flag - he was not into giving me oral (which I would not stand for again) nor was he very adventurous - which was kind of disconcerting considering a previous relationship that was full of that. Ultimately, I figured that would change, which was dumb - it went the other direction. I had the same issues. But it's slowly turning around. I'm not sure it will ever be adventurous, but there is finally oral happening.
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Post by workingonit on Aug 8, 2018 8:18:45 GMT -5
JMX I also saw the red flag of lack of adventure in the beginning. Even simple positions would trigger anxiety and be refused. In hindsight I can see that even when sex was frequent it was never the free, adventurous romp nor the intense intimate connection I had in the past. I too stupidly thought this was something that would improve as time went on, believing we would be more comfortable with each other. Nope
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 8, 2018 8:25:42 GMT -5
🙋♀️. We started off great - and it was about 3-4 years total - 2 with first baby. I will say - red flag - he was not into giving me oral (which I would not stand for again) nor was he very adventurous - which was kind of disconcerting considering a previous relationship that was full of that. Ultimately, I figured that would change, which was dumb - it went the other direction. I had the same issues. But it's slowly turning around. I'm not sure it will ever be adventurous, but there is finally oral happening. Very good news! I'm happy for you! I wish I could say I am ecstatic! But here comes my victim mentality due to experience. It's hard to believe there can be such a thing as bad oral sex, I've experienced that too. if you are only getting 10% of what you would really want is that okay? Are you lowering the bar for the sake of compromise? I hope that's not the case and it started at 100% or can gradually increase through communication. There are stories of grudgingly agreeing to having sex, then the refuser finds out it's not bad. I hope that's your case and it's not false hope.
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Post by shamwow on Aug 8, 2018 9:48:50 GMT -5
I had the same issues. But it's slowly turning around. I'm not sure it will ever be adventurous, but there is finally oral happening. Very good news! I'm happy for you! I wish I could say I am ecstatic! But here comes my victim mentality due to experience. It's hard to believe there can be such a thing as bad oral sex, I've experienced that too. if you are only getting 10% of what you would really want is that okay? Are you lowering the bar for the sake of compromise? I hope that's not the case and it started at 100% or can gradually increase through communication. There are stories of grudgingly agreeing to having sex, then the refuser finds out it's not bad. I hope that's your case and it's not false hope. Bad oral sex involves teeth. Having been on the receiving end of such I can testify there IS such thing as bad oral sex.
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