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Post by seekinganswers on Jul 31, 2018 16:48:19 GMT -5
Wow. This was A LOT to take in, but exactly what I was hoping for when I decided to walk into this lion's den and post here. Direct, honest, wise, challenging input and advice. Boy are you all delivering! As brutal as it is, I'm really grateful for this dialogue and am learning and growing from it. I even uttered a few “wow”s out loud as I was reading through. Tears are streaming. There are so many points taken. @choosinghappiness, thank you for your kind reply. Your circumstance does sound similar. I really admire your strength. flashjohn, thank you for recognizing that I didn’t see this as an issue when I was getting married. I think it’s easy to think from where we stand now, that I should have known these things then. I admire those of you who had it all figured out before you got married, but sadly that wasn’t me. I couldn’t have given him a choice back then because I wasn’t aware of it. There was no intention of manipulation or hiding of anything, because I didn’t have it to hide at that point. I’ve definitely done a “metric butt-ton” ( DryCreek) of introspection since. My understanding of myself and of marriage is so much deeper now. My shortcomings are crystal clear, trust me. I actually think my bigger mistake was turning away from it when these feelings started to emerge. It needed to be nurtured and worked on immediately. I failed there. One thing I want to mention is, I haven’t left my husband totally in the dark about this. I need to be much more candid than I have been, I know I tend to pad my words in hope to soften them. I know that isn’t helping. But I have expressed the way I feel for a few years now. In those moments he hears that he feels like a friend/ coparent to me. That I don’t feel connected to him beyond that. And obviously he’s aware we haven’t had sex in many years… Therapy was my doing – he never mentions it unless I ask to schedule it. If I never mention it again, I feel like he never would. We would go on forever like this – I think he just doesn’t want to face it. He is an eternal optimist and sees this as a phase, and that it will get better. We’ve had about 6 sessions and every time he goes right back to pretending that nothing is wrong, nothing happened. Same with any other conversation we’ve had in the past. It makes me feel a little crazy sometimes, like did he not hear me? But I don’t say anything either. I don’t pretend that everything is peachy, but I also don’t address things I should address. baza, you’re totally right that he is not as far down the path as me. I need to be more candid, and he needs to be more honest with himself. And we both need to put forth more effort if there is any chance of things getting better. I hear a lot of you feeling like that is not possible at this point. But I do wonder. Like for example, I completely see what a lot of you are saying about the whole topic of feminism/ duty and how it relates to vows. (@ihadalove, thank you for sharing your thread. It was really interesting to read through that as well as everyone’s posts here on the topic.) It’s a mindset I haven’t had, but I do wonder what flipping that mindset would do for me. Along with more conversation and effort. Or maybe I’m just holding on to anything because this is fucking brutal and the reality is UGLY. I understand it’s clear from your point of view, but there’s so much going on in my head. So many moving parts, so much sadness. But I know where to start, with a candid conversation. THANK YOU.
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Post by flashjohn on Jul 31, 2018 16:56:49 GMT -5
Wow. This was A LOT to take in, but exactly what I was hoping for when I decided to walk into this lion's den and post here. Direct, honest, wise, challenging input and advice. Boy are you all delivering! As brutal as it is, I'm really grateful for this dialogue and am learning and growing from it. I even uttered a few “wow”s out loud as I was reading through. Tears are streaming. There are so many points taken. @choosinghappiness, thank you for your kind reply. Your circumstance does sound similar. I really admire your strength. flashjohn , thank you for recognizing that I didn’t see this as an issue when I was getting married. I think it’s easy to think from where we stand now, that I should have known these things then. I admire those of you who had it all figured out before you got married, but sadly that wasn’t me. I couldn’t have given him a choice back then because I wasn’t aware of it. There was no intention of manipulation or hiding of anything, because I didn’t have it to hide at that point. I’ve definitely done a “metric butt-ton” ( DryCreek ) of introspection since. My understanding of myself and of marriage is so much deeper now. My shortcomings are crystal clear, trust me. I actually think my bigger mistake was turning away from it when these feelings started to emerge. It needed to be nurtured and worked on immediately. I failed there. One thing I want to mention is, I haven’t left my husband totally in the dark about this. I need to be much more candid than I have been, I know I tend to pad my words in hope to soften them. I know that isn’t helping. But I have expressed the way I feel for a few years now. In those moments he hears that he feels like a friend/ coparent to me. That I don’t feel connected to him beyond that. And obviously he’s aware we haven’t had sex in many years… Therapy was my doing – he never mentions it unless I ask to schedule it. If I never mention it again, I feel like he never would. We would go on forever like this – I think he just doesn’t want to face it. He is an eternal optimist and sees this as a phase, and that it will get better. We’ve had about 6 sessions and every time he goes right back to pretending that nothing is wrong, nothing happened. Same with any other conversation we’ve had in the past. It makes me feel a little crazy sometimes, like did he not hear me? But I don’t say anything either. I don’t pretend that everything is peachy, but I also don’t address things I should address. baza , you’re totally right that he is not as far down the path as me. I need to be more candid, and he needs to be more honest with himself. And we both need to put forth more effort if there is any chance of things getting better. I hear a lot of you feeling like that is not possible at this point. But I do wonder. Like for example, I completely see what a lot of you are saying about the whole topic of feminism/ duty and how it relates to vows. (@ihadalove, thank you for sharing your thread. It was really interesting to read through that as well as everyone’s posts here on the topic.) It’s a mindset I haven’t had, but I do wonder what flipping that mindset would do for me. Along with more conversation and effort. Or maybe I’m just holding on to anything because this is fucking brutal and the reality is UGLY. I understand it’s clear from your point of view, but there’s so much going on in my head. So many moving parts, so much sadness. But I know where to start, with a candid conversation. THANK YOU. Well, with someone like you, it is very easy to be nice and respectful. You didn't come here saying that people who want sex in marriage are selfish perverts. That is how my refuser treated me. Instead, you honestly said that you just don't feel connected to your husband. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying this. It is the absolute truth. In my opinion, NO ONE should be expected to fuck someone he/she is not attracted to. I wish my refuser had just been honest and respectful with me and just told me this.
You seem like a very nice person, but your husband just does not do it for you.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever had a boyfriend or SO who REALLY made you hot? I ask because I always thought that attraction could be developed, but I don't think so anymore. My refuser never had the animal attraction I wanted from her, but my GF certainly does! She cannot keep her hands off me, and I never thought it was possible. I really never thought that a woman would be this nuts over a 53 year old man, but she is!
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 17:01:49 GMT -5
Op, I also would like to know if you have ever had strong sexual chemistry and a great sex life with anyone. How sexually experienced are you?
If you have experienced that, don’t you want that again? If you do, how are you coping with the impossibility of getting that with your h?
If you haven’t had a great sex life with anyone could it be that you really aren’t that sexual? How often do you want sex and do you masturbate or ignore your Irving’s?
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 31, 2018 17:02:58 GMT -5
Thanks for posting here and exposing yourself to this brutality, it can't be easy. I know I got something out of it. There are many of us who wish their SO's would do this, hearing the perspectives from others has a different effect.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 31, 2018 17:24:25 GMT -5
Op, I also would like to know if you have ever had strong sexual chemistry and a great sex life with anyone. How sexually experienced are you? If you have experienced that, don’t you want that again? If you do, how are you coping with the impossibility of getting that with your h. If you haven’t had a great sex life with anyone could it be that you really aren’t that sexual? How often do you want sex and do you masturbate or ignore your Irving’s? A $64m question
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Post by beachguy on Jul 31, 2018 17:32:45 GMT -5
seekinganswers, you seem to be frustrated because your H is ignoring the problem. You’ve made it clear that you do not want to have sex with him. That leaves him two options. Cheat or leave. Are you waiting for him to push the eject button? I’m just not sure where you are coming from on that .
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 17:57:30 GMT -5
"You’ve made it clear that you do not want to have sex with him. That leaves him two options. Cheat or leave."
No, he could do what most here do: wait forever in hope and misery. If she carefully reads this site, she'll see that most of the refused stay with their mates even if the marriage is completely sexless for decades. She and her h already have been sexless for years. There's no reason for her to assume that won't continue while he remains a faithful, devoted, hopeful husband.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 31, 2018 18:42:12 GMT -5
"It makes me feel a little crazy sometimes, like did he not hear me". There was no intention of hiding or manipulating anything, because I didn't have it to hide at that point". I tend to pad my words in hopes to soften them." "He goes right back to pretending that nothing is wrong". It sounds like both of you have become skilled at" avoiding the inevitable, burying your head in the sand, and kicking the can down the road" These are all easy to relate to. Living in denial that this can be happening to me, to us. There is a FOG involved in all of this. (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt). It takes a good manny'kick in the pants' questions from people like us who have walked a mile in your shoes. You seem to be understanding that it's meant as tough love. I thank you for that. I strongly believe you will need a season to think this through. (I did) You are going to have to do more deep soul searching about what brings you true joy . I like the questions for you about your past. Have you had meaningful sex in the past? Where was your mind during your times of getting pregnant? Who does the initiating, and how much of it has remained a bunch of hints, suggestions and accepted failure? Here is something I hope will help you, during my counseling my Wife was asked to make a list of her 5 most important things in her life. She listed 4 in this order. God family work Church. I asked her, "where is marriage on this list?" she answered, "that is part of family". I then informed her, every sermon I have ever heard and every family book I have ever read list priorities in this order. GOD Marriage Family. Sadly she had no remorse and nothing to say. As northstarmom pointed out, it's doable, wrong ,and a life of false hope and misery. Be proud of yourself that you are strong enough to be having a wake up moment!
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 31, 2018 18:55:40 GMT -5
Just to add onto this "My son is my world". " I was 30 yrs. old and wanted a family".
My ex wife and I have 6 kids (3 natural and 3 adopted) her father lived with us too, you can imagine how often I felt I was at the bottom of the list. Your Husband is experiencing the same thing and is denial of it, all to "keep the peace".
The same effect can and will happen with one child.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 19:11:35 GMT -5
"My son is my world".
That's a big problem. You sound like a helicopter parent if your world is centered on your son. A big part of being a parent is preparing our offspring to be independent of us. If your world revolves around your son, it's unlikely you're doing that.
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 31, 2018 19:25:22 GMT -5
seekinganswers, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. The burden is on you to be transparent with him, but it’s on him whether to accept it. At the end of the day, he has to decide for himself, even if you think his logic is flawed. From your comments, it seems like you’re still hopeful of an improvement, though that seems questionable from what you describe of your history. And as others are hinting, if you haven’t had that kind of attraction to anyone in your past, it may just be core to who you are and not a specific obstacle with your H. Being on the other side of the table, if/when you get to this point, a very clear and kind way of delivering the message would be to explain that “this is as good as it gets”. I.e., “Don’t expect anything to improve beyond where we are today, so you need to decide whether you can be happy with things as they are.” It sounds like both you and H are avoiding the topic, kind of kicking the can down the road for another week / month / year. A lot of life can pass with this technique - if the goal is to just cope, this might be an approach. If the goal is to reach a resolution (acceptance/separation), one of you needs to drive the discussion.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 31, 2018 19:45:35 GMT -5
"My son is my world". That's a big problem. You sound like a helicopter parent if your world is centered on your son. A big part of being a parent is preparing our offspring to be independent of us. If your world revolves around your son, it's unlikely you're doing that. Yup. She could end up like my ex. Over dinner tonight with the kids I found out that my ex started taking classes at the school my daughter plans on going to next year. When my son goes to college in 4 years she has told me she is going to move to the town he wants to go to school at. Creepy. Desparate. And what happens when your kids are your world. When my son goes off to college in 4 years, ballofconfusion and I already have plans to move abroad. Bali, Thailand, Costa Rica, Greece. Live in these places and others for six months to a year and move to the next. When the kids have kids of their own? Do the grandparent thing. And head back out on adventures when everyone has had time together. Right now, my life revolves around my kids. But my kids are not my entire world.
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Post by baza on Jul 31, 2018 20:20:59 GMT -5
FWIW Sister seekinganswers , whoever wants to bring their ILIASM shithole to resolution gets my vote any day of the week. Who is refuser - who is refused - passed into irrelevancy a while back and no longer matters. Nor does the apportioning of blame/fault have any useful purpose in bringing the matter to resolution. You own your part in the fuck up, and your husband owns his part (he ain't the "innocent by-stander" here any more than you are. At the minimum, by tolerating the situation, he is complicit in the situation. He has, by inaction, enabled the situation. It couldn't have gone on without his tacit approval) But in light of your posts so far, it does not read at all like he is greatly interested in bringing this deal to resolution, where-as it DOES read like you might be interested in doing so. So you get my vote.
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Post by seekinganswers on Aug 1, 2018 7:06:41 GMT -5
I even get a vote, baza ?! Ha. Thank you. Thanks to all for keeping the insights coming, and for the actual words I can use from DryCreek . That really is the nutshell of the situation. I totally understand how this can go on and on for decades. Denial is a crazy thing. And FOG (haven’t heard this term greatcoastal , interesting), for some refusers as well. It's the perfect term because it really does cloud things. I think for that to lift for me, I need to see if there's anything else I can do. I know my attraction problem may be at my core, but I don’t feel like we’ve done all the trying we could do. What we’ve been doing to this point can’t be considered trying. It would start from here with conversation. Maybe it would be for not, as I’ve heard a lot of you say. Part of me does accept that reality. To answer your questions (I’ll try my best to incorporate them all…) I have had strong sexual chemistry with someone before. It was with the person I dated right before getting back together with my husband when we got married (my husband and I dated on and off starting in college). It was a really unhealthy relationship, narcissistic type guy. The highs were really high and the lows really low. It was passionate with a lot of great sex, but he was manipulative and well, an asshole, and I dodged that bullet in the nth hour. I think that may have fed into marrying my husband a bit, who is the opposite of him. Like, look what passion did for me. I started dating my husband at 21, with a couple relationships during the break up periods. I enjoyed sex more so in those relationships, but I can’t say I truly explored my sexuality with them. Reflecting back, I feel like I aimed to please and didn’t put myself out there for my own pleasure as much as I should have. I did with the a-hole, and I was much more playful and open with him. But with my husband, I was much more reserved. I didn’t do the initiating. I’m not sure where my mind was during the time of getting pregnant, probably very excited. I don’t remember that translating to better sex necessarily. It was really fast for us, I think it was only a month or two before I got pregnant. But I feel like more than ever, perhaps because of the deprivation, I’m coming to understand myself as a sexual being. I would love to explore my sexuality more (beyond masturbation, yes). If I do end up divorced, it would likely be a sexual revolution of sorts for me. I want that kind of connection again, not only sexual but romantic, intimate connection as well. I don’t have a great answer as to how I’ve been coping with the impossibility of getting that with my husband. It’s a big pill to swallow. Maybe because we are the king and queen of avoidance. Maybe because that point has existed within a jumble of confusion. But if I can improve things with him, maybe I can still experience some exploration. I know I’d ever have it to a level I could with someone I have more natural sexual chemistry with, but maybe it can get to a point where it’s fulfilling enough for both of us. Sounds unlikely based on the collective experience here. Is there anyone on here who did come back from this? Any threads to share on that? I guess if they’re better, they’re not on here anymore… shamwow, northstarmom - I'm a good mother. Please don't take that away from me on top of it all. I'm aware of what you're saying, I've spent some therapy time on the issue. I'm not worried about it.
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 1, 2018 7:18:53 GMT -5
Before dating my h, i dated some assholes whom I had great sex with. Sex with refuser h was never great. I think I deliberately picked someone like h because I linked great sexual chemistry with being with an asshole.
It wasn’t til I had lots of individual therapy and eventually left my marriage that I was able to be with a great guy who also had chemistry with me and is a great lover. We’ve been together 5 years.
I don’t think one can create sexual chemistry. I think it’s based on pheromones. One can, though, choose to have relationships with people who have or who lack such chemistry with you. You are making that choice because you get something out of being married to a man you don’t want to fuck. your husband also is choosing to be with you because he gets something out of being with a woman who doesn’t sexually desire him.
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